Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Shooting Traditional Firearms and Weapons => General Interest => Topic started by: The Miner '49er on January 12, 2019, 05:01:54 PM
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In an attempt to be as safe as possible when loading my flintlock rifle, after verifying it is unloaded, I put the frizzen forward and then lower the cock down to the pan. Next I load powder, patch and ball. Next I pull the cock to half-cock, and prick through the touch hole with a large brass needle. Finally I prime the pan, close the frizzen, pull the cock to full and then ka-boom (usually). My thought process is that I want to eliminate any chance of a spark by avoiding tensioning the cock at half-cock until I must do so to make ready and charge the pan. Here's my question. I recently started using a percussion pistol (not revolver). Most of what I read says to put the hammer on half-cock, then load P,P,B, then cap the nipple, pull to full cock and finally fire. It seems to me this is opening the shooter to the same risk. I don't have a lot of faith in springs and half-cock notches. Similar to my FL procedure, I have been lowering the hammer against an unprimed nipple, loading the barrel, and finally pulling the hammer to half-cock, using a capper to seat the cap, then pulling to full cock and then firing. Is this the recommended safest way or am I overthinking this?
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Well, the way I load a flintlock is I go to half-cock and open the frizzen,,, powder - patch & ball,,, pick the vent hole,,, prime the pan and close the frizzen - come to full cock - aim and shoot,,, or if I'm not going to shoot right away (depending on weather) I will still prime the pan - close the frizzen and leave the cock at half cock. Your flint should never be touching the frizzen at half cock). -OR- you can leave your pan not primed and stick a feather in the vent hole and prime when you're ready to take your shot.
Loading a cap lock; I go to half cock,,, powder - patch & ball,,, cap the nipple,,, go to full cock and shoot. (If I'm not going to shoot right away I will put a piece of leather between the hammer and non-capped nipple "just carry a piece of leather tied to your trigger guard" and then cap at half cock when I'm ready to shoot.
I would suggest whatever you are comfortable doing is what you should continue to do and always be safe in what you do.
IMHO - it's safer to stick with one loading and priming method then to alter your method for either because of a particular reason that is not normally used.
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what joe just typed. :bl th up
i'll add, if not shooting a flinter immediately, one can put a leather cover over the frizzen.
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what joe just typed. :bl th up
i'll add, if not shooting a flinter immediately, one can put a leather cover over the frizzen.
Yep,.... what Joe said. :bl th up
and,... what Rob said :bl th up, "hammer stalls" are cheap insurance on a flintlock. :)
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what joe just typed. :bl th up
i'll add, if not shooting a flinter immediately, one can put a leather cover over the frizzen.
Absolutely, leather frizzen cover. :hairy
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I was taught to open the pan and put the cock down. I have seen a flintlock go off with no powder in the pan, and the hole in the pool table to prove it.
Percussion locks are not likely to produce a spark but you know Murphy's law. Don't cap until you are on the shooting line.
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When loading a percussion gun, putting it on half cock is not a risk to the gun firing if there is no cap on the nipple. I always go to half cock to allow air to pass thru the nipple when loading powder/patch&ball. There is the possiblity of "dieseling" if air cannot escape the nipple when seating a tight patch ball combination.
As for flint lock loading, I aways put the frizzen stall on the frizzen with the gun at 1/2 cock when loading to be safe.
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Thanks to all who have offered their thoughts and loading procedures. After reading comments from the first three experienced guys I was thinking that I was concerned about a problem that didn't exist, but then along came prairie dog and Fyrstyk. The pool table incident shows that Murphy's law spares no one. On another M-L forum I read about some dieseling discharges and those incidents make a good case for Fyrstyk going to half-cock when loading to allow a pressure vent for air. At this point I'm thinking that a safe procedure would be to go to half-cock and frizzen forward on the flinter, and half-cock on the percussion, but to shroud the cock and flint, or the tip of the percussion hammer, with a leather stall before loading the barrel. This way even if Murphy rears his head there should be no sparks and hopefully no accidental discharge. I hope more shooters chime in with their procedures and experiences, this is really interesting. Thanks again, guys.
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considering that overall firearm common sense is used ...
for a loaded flintlock firearm, there are NO safety concerns if a frizzen is booted, laid full down on a primed pan, and the cock is set to half.
there ARE concerns about a capped nipple with the cock set to half, so don't cap the nipple until ready to shoot and keep the hammer over the bare nipple or covered nipple.
that's all there is to that. firearm safety always begins with that gray matter twixt the ears! :bl th up
i was at a range shoot years ago and a feller was using those safe flintlock loading methods, but his gun was yet still unsafe - there was a 1/6" gap 'tween the lock bolster and the barrel. plenty of room to accumulate spilled pan powder and eventually blow up the lock plate.
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Consider that a flint knocked askew could strike the barrel and produce a spark. And yes, if that lock plate isn't tight against the barrel flat priming powder will leak into the lock along with fouling.
PS
I started out using a frizzen stall for hunting but it is simply a handicap for bird and rabbit hunting. Now I check the half cock for proper function and load, prime or cap when I enter the field. Practice safe muzzle control from there. On the shooting line we don't prime or cap until we are on the line with the muzzle pointing down range. So my frizzen stall rides in the bottom of my bullet pouch in case I want to use it for some reason.
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I would suggest whatever you are comfortable doing is what you should continue to do and always be safe in what you do.
IMHO - it's safer to stick with one loading and priming method then to alter your method for either because of a particular reason that is not normally used.
I typed the above earlier, and here it is again, but I want to add the following (as a follow up).
Now;
With a percussion rifle - I come to half cock before loading it...
With a flintlock rifle I come to half cock before loading it as the frizzen is open (prior to loading) or from the last shot taken.
This is staying within the same loading procedure - except for priming whichever rifle you're shooting on a given day, cap or flint.
I did take a look at several "flintlock" loading videos on youtube this morning - and not a one that I watched even addressed this topic we have going on here now, and the ones I watched - the frizzen was open and the cock was down.
Now, does this make either right or wrong? To me, I don't believe so. Either is fine (Frizzen open / with the Cock at half or down) and both work fine. IMHO it is what you are use to doing. :shake
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Just to chime in, as an inveterate caplock shooter, I ALWAYS load at half cock. Having said that, I confess to a growing attraction to try a flintlock. You, my forum friends, are the reason for that attraction. Dang! This hobby is getting expensive.
Nessmuk,
I've always looked at this hobby/sport as a "regression rather then a progression" with all designs pre 1900...
Caplock
Flintlock
Wheel Lock
Fire Lock
Hand cannon
Of which the last three on the above list I seriously doubt I will ever have or shoot,,, and I'm quite happy and satisfied with the first two on the above list.
There are probably many caplock shooters who will eventually get a flintlock simply because of the lure of the flintlock and the enjoyment that follows when using one. :shake
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Thanks to all who have chimed in, this sure has been interesting and thought provoking. Ohio Joe's viewing of Youtube videos prompted me to dig in some more on the internet. As you recall, my original question was to learn the safest way to load a single-shot ML percussion pistol. When I was about 8 years old my dad started drilling into my brain not to trust a gun's safety; it's nothing more than a man-made gizmo that can break. This has stuck with me. Also I doubt that anyone would argue the point that something like a hammer, under spring tension, has the potential (albeit slight) to release and cause a spark. Here are loading procedures that I found on the net. The NMLRA says that after loading PPB "bring hammer to half-cock and cap." (They also require flintlocks to be loaded with frizzen and cock forward). Pedersoli instructions begin by saying "with the hammer on rest position (down)" . . . load PPB. CVA says "fire three caps to dry bore and nipple ... load PPB ... with gun pointed in safe direction and hammer at half-cock, place percussion cap on nipple." I found other sites that instruct the shooter to first pull the hammer to half-cock. Even the BSA rifle shooting merit badge pamphlet (the BSA is usually extremely safety conscious) begins with putting the hammer on half-cock. I can't see any advantage to this, the only exception being to vent the barrel as Fyrstyk mentioned, but when loading a pistol I don't think this would be much of a potential worry. I tried in vain to find any original 19th century loading instructions. I was hoping to learn if half-cock was viewed as a loading position or a safe(er) carry position. If anyone has something like that in their collection, please post it. Thanks again, guys!
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Thanks to all who have chimed in, this sure has been interesting and thought provoking. Ohio Joe's viewing of Youtube videos prompted me to dig in some more on the internet. As you recall, my original question was to learn the safest way to load a single-shot ML percussion pistol. When I was about 8 years old my dad started drilling into my brain not to trust a gun's safety; it's nothing more than a man-made gizmo that can break. This has stuck with me. Also I doubt that anyone would argue the point that something like a hammer, under spring tension, has the potential (albeit slight) to release and cause a spark. Here are loading procedures that I found on the net. The NMLRA says that after loading PPB "bring hammer to half-cock and cap." (They also require flintlocks to be loaded with frizzen and cock forward). Pedersoli instructions begin by saying "with the hammer on rest position (down)" . . . load PPB. CVA says "fire three caps to dry bore and nipple ... load PPB ... with gun pointed in safe direction and hammer at half-cock, place percussion cap on nipple." I found other sites that instruct the shooter to first pull the hammer to half-cock. Even the BSA rifle shooting merit badge pamphlet (the BSA is usually extremely safety conscious) begins with putting the hammer on half-cock. I can't see any advantage to this, the only exception being to vent the barrel as Fyrstyk mentioned, but when loading a pistol I don't think this would be much of a potential worry. I tried in vain to find any original 19th century loading instructions. I was hoping to learn if half-cock was viewed as a loading position or a safe(er) carry position. If anyone has something like that in their collection, please post it. Thanks again, guys!
I doubt you'll find much, or anything at all, with regards to something that was likely to have been considered an everyday regime when it comes to loading muzzleloaders.
One has to remember, folks "back then" relied on common sense when it came to safety, and were handling guns from the time they were old enough to pick one up, and were taught what it took to survive everyday life by their elders.
No muzzleloaders back then, came with written instructions and there was no internet. They were taught to think for themselves and to know their weapons intimately with regards to "form and function".
Have you ever taken a lock apart, and studied how it works?
If so,.... you'll notice that the "safety notch" (half-cock notch) on a modern lock's tumbler has a "lip" on it that the sear's nose sits above to prevent the sear from slipping down from it's intended ("safe") position when at half-cock.
You can check this out for yourself, by bringing your lock's hammer back to half-cock and pulling on the trigger,.... nothing should/will happen, unless someone has messed with that "lip" and didn't know what they were doing.
The only way to over-ride a half-cock notch's "lip" is to bring the hammer back a bit with your thumb while applying pressure to the trigger. That will then allow the hammer to move forward, another way is to bring the hammer back to "full-cock" and pulling the trigger.
Your lock will also likely have a "fly",... which prevents the sear's nose from slipping back into the "half-cock" notch as the hammer moves forward from the "full-cock" position.
I'm not saying every lock is exactly like described above though,... 'cause some cheap imports from the 1960's and 70's, didn't see the need for a "fly", and some didn't even have a "half-cock" notch. :Doh!
But to be fair,... I've also seen some antique weapons lacking one, or both, also. :bl th up
By studying your gun's lock carefully, and thoroughly understanding how it functions,.... you'll be following a 300-400 year old tradition. :bl th up
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IMHO, the most unsafe way to load (in this case) a flintlock, that was a practice of the Military of that day,,, was to prime the pan from the paper cartridge / close the frizzen (so the cock would have to be at half cock for this, then pour the paper cartridge powder down the bore - followed by the paper and ball all at the same time,,, and this was repeated many times in battle and very quickly (if you were lucky enough to survive the volley-fire from the enemy.....)
So, loading like the Military loaded back then - this must not have been an issue for them... I wouldn't care to duplicate that without first blowing down the barrel, which many frown on these days.
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10-4 on that! I checked out Von Steuben's manual of arms for the soldier and wondered about the 'prime the pan first method', but I don't think that soldier safety was of utmost importance at that time. Does anyone, perhaps someone in a Civil War reenactor group, have access to the manual of arms of that period for the ML rifle?
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IMHO, the most unsafe way to load (in this case) a flintlock, that was a practice of the Military of that day,,, was to prime the pan from the paper cartridge / close the frizzen (so the cock would have to be at half cock for this, then pour the paper cartridge powder down the bore - followed by the paper and ball all at the same time,,, and this was repeated many times in battle and very quickly (if you were lucky enough to survive the volley-fire from the enemy.....)
So, loading like the Military loaded back then - this must not have been an issue for them... I wouldn't care to duplicate that without first blowing down the barrel, which many frown on these days.
speed of fire was more important than safety, or the life of any of his majesty's foot soldiers.
go back another century and consider the dangers a matchlock wielding soldier faced. yikes!
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I always have the hammer down, frizzen stall in place and a toothpick in the touch hole on my first load of the day. Subsequent load are with the frizzen flipped and the hammer down.
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I might have struck some gold. Ohio Joe in reply #14 talks about the practice of the military back in the day of the flintlocks. The more I thought about it, it seems likely that former military men would have carried into their lives, after the war, the gun handling practices taught them when in the service. A little more digging took me to Brig.-Gen. Silas Casey's 1863 Manual of Arms. Pages 9-13 describe and illustrate the Army way to load a percussion long arm using a paper cartridge. It begins with the hammer forward on a fired cap. Once the paper is torn the powder is poured down the barrel then the ball is started with sprue up. No mention is made of what to do with the paper! Finally the hammer is put on half-cock, the old cap is removed, it gets recapped and hammer goes to full-cock. It makes sense that this is how a large number of former soldiers and sailors would have continued to load their percussion arms in the days following their service. Extra points for the general, safety of to serviceman seems to have become taken into consideration, and thanks to all who have replied.
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No mention is made of what to do with the paper!
I believe the paper cartridge, with the ball secured inside it, is loaded as a unit. The paper acts like a patch of sorts.
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That is also my belief. The manual merely says to "put the cartridge between the teeth, tear the paper to the powder, empty powder into barrel, disengage the ball from the paper with thumb and fingers, then insert it into the bore, the pointed end uppermost, then ram it down", then finally go to half-cock, remove spent cap, put on new cap, cock and fire. Perhaps the word 'it' refers to paper as well as ball, that would make sense.
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That is also my belief. The manual merely says to "put the cartridge between the teeth, tear the paper to the powder, empty powder into barrel, disengage the ball from the paper with thumb and fingers, then insert it into the bore, the pointed end uppermost, then ram it down", then finally go to half-cock, remove spent cap, put on new cap, cock and fire. Perhaps the word 'it' refers to paper as well as ball, that would make sense.
yep, no different as with a flintlock brown bess being loaded by one of his majesty's soldiers of foot. the cartouche paper is the wadding/patching.
no matter what lock flavor, common sense should prevail. except with those pesky matchlocks. :o ;D
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I might have struck some gold. Ohio Joe in reply #14 talks about the practice of the military back in the day of the flintlocks. The more I thought about it, it seems likely that former military men would have carried into their lives, after the war, the gun handling practices taught them when in the service. A little more digging took me to Brig.-Gen. Silas Casey's 1863 Manual of Arms. Pages 9-13 describe and illustrate the Army way to load a percussion long arm using a paper cartridge. It begins with the hammer forward on a fired cap. Once the paper is torn the powder is poured down the barrel then the ball is started with sprue up. No mention is made of what to do with the paper! Finally the hammer is put on half-cock, the old cap is removed, it gets recapped and hammer goes to full-cock. It makes sense that this is how a large number of former soldiers and sailors would have continued to load their percussion arms in the days following their service. Extra points for the general, safety of to serviceman seems to have become taken into consideration, and thanks to all who have replied.
Dumping a charge and ramming a patched ball down on the powder, will often cause a patched ball to raise off the powder due to trapped air (think hydraulic effect) when loading a percussion rifle with a spent cap on the nipple and the hammer down blocking the escape of trapped air.
Under those circumstances air can be trapped between the powder charge and the patched ball, which can result in a burst barrel upon discharging the gun.
In 1863, percussion small arms during the Civil War would have been loaded by grabbing a paper-wrapped "cartridge", tearing the bottom of the cartridge off with your teeth, dumping the charge down the bore, followed by the slightly undersized conical bullet (with paper still attached) was rammed down upon the charge.
The paper rammed down on top the conical prevented the undersized conical from slipping/moving forward (creating an air space between charge and bullet) until the gun was fired.
Upon the gun's discharge the hollow base of the conical expanded to engage the bore's riflings.
This procedure lends itself towards an easy, and quickly, loaded conical bullet that was pretty accurate for the times, and allowed any trapped air in the bore to safely escape past the undersized bullet, as it (with remaining paper) was rammed home.
Soldiers of the Civil War, often took their rifles (muskets) home when leaving the service,.... so they were probably still using home-made "cartridges" with undersized conicals during civilian use.
THERE IS NO WAY,... I'D EVER ADVISE ANYONE LOADING A PATCHED ROUND BALL IN A PERCUSSION MUZZLELOADER, TO DO IT WITH A SPENT CAP ON THE NIPPLE WITH THE HAMMER DOWN.
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That is also my belief. The manual merely says to "put the cartridge between the teeth, tear the paper to the powder, empty powder into barrel, disengage the ball from the paper with thumb and fingers, then insert it into the bore, the pointed end uppermost, then ram it down", then finally go to half-cock, remove spent cap, put on new cap, cock and fire. Perhaps the word 'it' refers to paper as well as ball, that would make sense.
yep, no different as with a flintlock brown bess being loaded by one of his majesty's soldiers of foot. the cartouche paper is the wadding/patching.
no matter what lock flavor, common sense should prevail. except with those pesky matchlocks. :o ;D
IIRC,.... the loading procedure for loading the Brown Bess, was to bring the hammer to half-cock, draw a paper cartridge from it's box, tear the bottom of the cartridge with your teeth, prime the pan and close the frizzen, dump the remaining charge down the bore, followed by ball and paper rammed tight.
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this is how it was done ... gotta mind those delayed ignitions!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJMbxZ1k9NQ
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this is how it was done ... gotta mind those delayed ignitions!
Yep,.... that's the loading procedure I remember! :hairy Except the shooter should stare at the musket for 10 seconds after a hang-fire. :laffing :bl th up :laffing
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THERE IS NO WAY,... I'D EVER ADVISE ANYONE LOADING A PATCHED ROUND BALL IN A PERCUSSION MUZZLELOADER, TO DO IT WITH A SPENT CAP ON THE NIPPLE WITH THE HAMMER DOWN.
I agree completely with this. :hairy
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My great thanks go to the last three guys whose wise words I will heed regarding NOT loading a patched round ball with a spent cap held on the nipple by the hammer. This forum could be a real life saver! Thanks again to everyone. :hairy
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I definitely learned something new here. Probably lucky nothing went wrong for me. :Doh!
So the procedure for patched round ball and percussion is?
- half cock
- remove spent cap
- powder, patch, ball
- ram
- cap
- full cock
- shoot
- repeat
It all makes perfect sense now that you all made me think about it.
Thank You! Thank You!
:hairy
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I definitely learned something new here. Probably lucky nothing went wrong for me. :Doh!
So the procedure for patched round ball and percussion is?
- half cock
- remove spent cap
- powder, patch, ball
- ram
- cap
- full cock
- shoot
- repeat
It all makes perfect sense now that you all made me think about it.
Thank You! Thank You!
:hairy
Yep! :hairy