Traditional Muzzleloading Association

Craftsmanship => Gun Building and Repair => Topic started by: pintail_drake2004 on March 07, 2009, 09:10:52 PM

Title: Started my Lancaster today, have a MORE question 5-27-09
Post by: pintail_drake2004 on March 07, 2009, 09:10:52 PM
Is there anything i can use other than inletting black? I did not realize i didnt order any until today. I have been waiting or spring break to build my rifes because i have 9 days off. If i wait for some black to come in, it would be 3 days at least, 4 since tomorrow is sunday. Can ya help me out here? what else works? i called every store i could think of in 3 counties and they dont have it (most dont even know what it is)
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Post by: Buffler Razz on March 07, 2009, 09:17:51 PM
I used some of my wife's lipstick, worked ok but gets thick. I have the best results by wiping a real tiny bit of vaseline on the part with a rag and then sooting it up in the flame of a candle. Thats all I use now. Just be careful bending over your work if the flame is still going, I thinned a bit of my hair and I don't have much to spare anymore!
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Post by: Captchee on March 08, 2009, 09:39:08 AM
i used inletting black once .
IMO it’s  whats called a fools buy . IE you buy something that does the very same thing as something cheaper or free  because a book  or   list of required  items says to .
Candle or  lamp black works good but its messy  and can get all over everything .

 Here is what I do . Go down to the store and get you a larger  black Permanent  , Marks a Lot , marker .
 The one  with about a half inch head  used for posters and such . They work great for  coating a barrel flat  as well as the inside of lock plats . Sharpies will do the same thing . Just get  one with a big enough tip  so as you can color things quickly .
 Markers will transfer  usually 2 to 3 times before you have to re coat the area . They also will not bleed gunk all over everything  . They also do not leave an oil on the wood that must be removed .

 For my inletting , that all I use  anymore
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Post by: tg on March 08, 2009, 11:32:44 AM
Captchee has given the best method I know of, a lot cleaner than anything else I have used as well.
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Post by: Iktomi on March 08, 2009, 12:24:53 PM
Great tip, Captchee. I used inlet black on my first gun, what a freaking mess!
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Post by: Indiana on March 08, 2009, 12:32:52 PM
I'm going to use a marker on my next build.  That inletting black stuff gets all over everything.  It's a huge mess!
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Post by: pintail_drake2004 on March 08, 2009, 01:29:12 PM
Thank you for the replies. Ill get some markers while i am out today.
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Post by: Greg on March 08, 2009, 06:19:31 PM
Another great tip. I love this forum. pintail, I'm gettin' ready to buy my first kit too. Which one did you get?
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Post by: Buffler Razz on March 08, 2009, 07:05:32 PM
Capchee,
Wow, given my past performance with a candle, you just saved me from more hairloss!
Thanks,
Razz
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Post by: melsdad on March 08, 2009, 07:25:20 PM
I like the idea of the marker!! I will keep that in mind.
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Post by: rollingb on March 08, 2009, 07:56:23 PM
I use a candle like Wyosmith does, and when I don't have a candle handy, I've used a kerosene lamp by taking the globe off and turning the flame down low. :rt th
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Post by: Uncle Russ on March 08, 2009, 09:12:04 PM
Quote from: "rollingb"
I use a candle like Wyosmith does, and when I don't have a candle handy, I've used a kerosene lamp by taking the globe off and turning the flame down low. :rt th

I use a coal oil lamp too...but I turn that puppy up high and let'er smoke 'em really good.

I also use a coal oil lamp for smoking my bullet moulds. I get 'em black as tar, and the bullets drop right out....very seldom have to tap the center pin.

Uncle Russ...
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Post by: pintail_drake2004 on March 08, 2009, 10:51:52 PM
Well i tried the marker and the candle, and for me the candle worked better. I put in about 8-9 hours on my rifle today and got the lock and barrel fitted. However i do have one question, When i inletted the lock, the rear of the pan sits further out from the barrel than the front of the pan. WHy is this? i used the black and didnt find anymore wood to be removed. I will try to get some pix up tomorrow night.

I am using a pecatonica Lancaster kit. I am very happy with the grade of maple i recieved (my brother likes his too).
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Post by: Captchee on March 08, 2009, 11:02:06 PM
did you  inlet the  lock plate  alone or did you leave it all together ? if its together ,  then check and see if the sear is  touching  the inside of the sear hole .
 if you just inlet the  plate alone "as you should do first . then the back of the plate is not inlet far enough
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Post by: pintail_drake2004 on March 11, 2009, 04:07:40 PM
OK well i got the lock to fit correctly and sit flush with the barrel (except for a 0.019" gap that i cannot get to go away between the barrel and pan). The trigger inletted today, now i would like to put the side plate on. My question is, How do i find where the bolts go? i read the book several times,but something is just not clicking. Can anyone here help me out?
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Post by: Captchee on March 11, 2009, 08:45:04 PM
well depends on the lock , . normaly its just behind the  tang  and into the  pan bridle  just back of the  pan . this is the thick inside  brace that mates to you barrel.  folks call it by diffrent names but i call it the pan bridle

with some Breech plugs though you have to drill through the  part of the tang thats  on the back face of the breech ..
 if you do two bolts . the second goes through  and into the open area  of the lock plate , just forward of the bend in the main spring .
 its best to use a point jig in a drill press  to make sure all ligns up stait . once you have the points drilled  you can mark centers of the holes on the stock , large enough so as to align the lock  side plate . then drill the side plate . then tap the lock plate

 i believ steve has  this covered in his building totorial down in the gun building forum
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Post by: pintail_drake2004 on March 15, 2009, 10:33:46 PM
Ok guys, i have been a wood worker for many year, and my father is a master carpenter of many decades. and we both have seen better bolts in childs toys. The bolts included for the tang bolt and the lock bolts are of LOW QUALITY steel, i would have expected better steel bolts in this kit. heads twisted off and/or left with tool marks with little pressure.
Sending my bro to the hardware store tomorrow to get some better hardware for this gun.
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Post by: rollingb on March 15, 2009, 10:48:13 PM
Quote from: "pintail_drake2004"
Ok guys, i have been a wood worker for many year, and my father is a master carpenter of many decades. and we both have seen better bolts in childs toys. The bolts included for the tang bolt and the lock bolts are of LOW QUALITY steel, i would have expected better steel bolts in this kit. heads twisted off and/or left with tool marks with little pressure.
Sending my bro to the hardware store tomorrow to get some better hardware for this gun.

That's interesting,... where did you get your Lancaster kit?
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Post by: pintail_drake2004 on March 15, 2009, 10:53:47 PM
the kit came from Pecatonica. I have heard nothing but good about them and they are awesome to work with. but this shocked me. I took a bolt after i decided to get some new ones, and the file just darn near cut right through it with ease. dont know if it was a bad batch or what. but i busted my butt over my spring break o get this done, and i get stopped short because of this. I will be gone for the next 3 days, so i guess this next weekend if im lucky. But im glad it happened now instead of when i start shooting it.
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Post by: pathfinder on March 16, 2009, 09:30:11 AM
Did you get rid of that gap? I helped a student once who had the same problem and it turned out the lock wasn't strait up and down,the lower end of the lock was tipped in @ 5 degrees,so I had him file the bolster so the lock fit tight against the barrel. You don't want a gap there to collect gunk.
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Post by: Indiana on March 16, 2009, 09:30:25 AM
The bolts which came with my TOTW kit seemed to mess up the slot pretty badly when you tried to tighten them as well.  I was using the right size driver, etc, but they still messed up.  I ended up having to reshape the head and file a new slot.  The last set of bolts I bought from a guy out at Friendship, however, look to be of a much higher quality steel.
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Post by: Captchee on March 16, 2009, 11:14:50 PM
the reason for this is that you dont use those screws for the build, only for the finish .  any screw you put in and take out as many times as you  SHOULD be for as inletting a butt plate will get buggered up . so get you some cheep  scres to use for the build .
also Unless DicK has changes something , the screws are IRON not steal .
 if you have to torque them in so tight that you twist them , then you have not done something right . the part should fit correctly with the screw just being snugged down . if it doesnt then more inletting is needed .

 the iron screws also take a brown or blue much better.
 they also do not have a tappered slot but a square gun slot . so even though you  think you have the right driver . if its just an everyday one from the tool box , it will slip out very easy
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Post by: jtwodogs on March 17, 2009, 07:48:18 AM
Capt. I am one to use any modern tool to help me do things better. I am just setting here wondering how they used to do that job without a drill press to make sure they get it staight?
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Post by: Captchee on March 17, 2009, 09:34:37 AM
becouse they used drill presses  LOL .
at one time . when i had my original shop , i had a drill press that was dated to 1890. it was called a drill post as it would mount to any post or beam in a shop wall  . still worked great . In fact the press changed little  un tell the advent of electric motors .
  The thing was simple and it worked cleanly . . Basically it was just a large brace and bit , mounted to a  hand lever . You then had a hand wheel that you  cranked as you brought the brace down .
  no mater  what type of drill press you use , a  center jig for the drill bit is a must if you want a true hole .

i also have seen photos of 18 centery  wood presses . im sure if you do a google on the history of the drill press , you will find alot of info concerning them


 Also brace and bits work  , if you use an angle guide  to ensure you  stay true  and not rush ..
 The other thing to remember is that  folks built from planks  not pre carves . With a plank , the drilling is done before the stock is shaped . Thus its much easier to get a good 90 deg hole  when you can clamp the stock true. Over a pre carve that is already starting to be shaped   making it harder to clamp true
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Post by: pintail_drake2004 on March 18, 2009, 03:32:16 PM
Sorry for the lag in response gents, ive been in the hospital for the last 3 days.

The bolts that came with the kit are the ones i used to button the thing up. Book said nothing about having 2 sets of bolts (one for fitting, and one for final). I did not torque the heads off, it only took very little pressure to mar-up, twist, and damage the heads.  
Will steel bolts brown well? What other options are there? I have a snug fit with my lock, trigger, and barrel. Tapped the holes with the proper taps. I think i want something a lil stronger than what came with this.

thanks
pintail
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Post by: Captchee on March 18, 2009, 08:15:51 PM
steel will blue and brown . just takes longer .
Iron screws are easly mared . thats why you use 2 finish .
again the slots are not tappered . they take a square blade " IE not a standard screw driver .
 that being said , i have never broken a screw from  dic . they are the very same screws that  you would get from tow  Jim chambers or any of the others . infact most times he sends more then needed .
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Post by: jbullard1 on March 18, 2009, 09:44:47 PM
Let me interject a thought here!
The iron screws will break with an improper size pilot hole, I know because I have done it.
Practice drilling several size holes in scrap wood and run a screw in them
You need to grind or buy screwdrivers that exactly fit the screws you are using. Its very easy to screw up a screw
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Post by: fm tim on March 26, 2009, 08:45:24 PM
What do you use to remove the marker color from the lock plate, barrel, etc.?
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Post by: pintail_drake2004 on March 26, 2009, 09:13:54 PM
just wipes off easily with some rubbin alcohol
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Post by: Captchee on March 26, 2009, 10:01:30 PM
Just take a rag to it  with alittle  409 , ajax , even soap and water  or  just wipe it off with  denature alcohol . degreaser also works well ..  which you will need to use to brown or blue the barrel any way
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Post by: Hank in WV on March 26, 2009, 10:02:38 PM
Alittle hint with wood screws. Rub a little candle wax or bar soap in the threads. Makes it much easier to run them in.
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Post by: pintail_drake2004 on April 11, 2009, 03:30:45 PM
Hello gents, sorry i havent been around much i was just released from the Hospital and ICU.

I finally got to hobble around and work on my rifle a bit today and started the nose cap for my gun. I have never paid much attention to this on a finished gun but was wondering if any of yall could please post a few pictures of what they look like when finished (from a few angles) i would really appreciate it.

Thank you
Jordan
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Post by: James Kelly on April 13, 2009, 11:07:44 AM
Bolts produced on an automatic screw machine are normally made of 12L14.

Same thing as used for most muzzle loading barrels, by the way.

In modern times the word 'steel" is used not only for rather soft stuff, like nails, but also for hardenable metal, such as used in hammers, knives, springs, files, etc.

If you want bolts that won't shear off like a piece of sharp cheese (read that 12L14) they need to be made of some higher carbon material, and/or heat treated.

Personally I do not know what is commonly available in strong bolts suitable for lock bolts.
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Post by: Captchee on April 13, 2009, 03:46:29 PM
i dont think he is talking about lock bolts , james . more to the screws that hold the  but plates on and such
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Post by: pintail_drake2004 on May 27, 2009, 05:57:44 PM
Hey gents i have a few more questions for ya. I am about to put in the inlays along the forestock but not quite sure where to position them. My book shows a drawing of one inletted, but as for how far apart... i was thinking 1 ever 1/3 of the forestock correct? And i will do the carving on this stock-maybe-and was wondering if acanthus leaves would be pc?
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Post by: Captchee on May 27, 2009, 11:24:02 PM
yep what steve said . the pins  pins or key's go through them