Post by: mark davidson on March 12, 2009, 12:09:49 PM
Post by: jbullard1 on March 12, 2009, 12:18:52 PM
Weigh the same volume of Pyrodex and see what you get
Post by: sse on March 12, 2009, 12:19:52 PM
Post by: mark davidson on March 12, 2009, 12:45:48 PM
Post by: Bigsmoke on March 12, 2009, 12:56:18 PM
The concept of dumping a handful of powder and hoping for the best is more or less that of English big game hunters in Africa with their big bore guns in the 1800's.
The common word of wisdom here is to measure your charges, whether it be with an antler measure or an adjustable brass measure or whatever.
There is the thought of consistency in loading. As such, a measure of whatever sort will give you a pretty consistent charge, which is what we are after.
The question of why does the rest of the shooting community weigh their charges while we steadfastly continue to do volume is simple. With our firearms, if we go over by a little, it's not going to make all that great of a difference in pressures. That cannot be said for these new fangled cartridge guns and their stinky smokeless powders, can it?
Post by: Sir Michael on March 12, 2009, 01:32:57 PM
The term "grain" is in reference to the weight and weight only. There is no volume that correlates to "grain" since a grain of every material that can be made ganular will occupy a different volume.
Post by: snake eyes on March 12, 2009, 01:41:07 PM
Too old to change now.
snake-eyes
Post by: snake eyes on March 12, 2009, 01:46:02 PM
Quote from: "jbullard1"
Mark
Weigh the same volume of Pyrodex and see what you get
Jerry,
What is Pyrodex???? :shake
Post by: jbullard1 on March 12, 2009, 02:14:18 PM
Quote from: "snake eyes"
Quote from: "jbullard1"Mark
Weigh the same volume of Pyrodex and see what you get
Jerry,
What is Pyrodex???? :shake
Is is a propellant I used to use before I became obsessed with this Mad Sport
Post by: mark davidson on March 12, 2009, 02:23:41 PM
Post by: rollingb on March 12, 2009, 02:36:59 PM
Quote from: "mark davidson"
I did read a similar example where Pyrodex weighed significantly different by volume versus weight but I do not shoot Pyrodex so I kinda put that out of my head. I could in fact just forget about weight but there seems to be something worthwhile in a little EDUCATION so I thought I would ask the experts. We may not take scales to the woods but I doubt if many of us just dump in a handful and hope for the best. I reckon I just want to know that my charge is not too heavy or too light and I was wondering WHY the whole shooting world outside black powder measures their powder by weight and BPer shooters still use volume. It's a simple curiosity question????
Mark, although "you" don't use the faux powder (Pyrodex and etc.) there are lots of muzzleloader shooters that do,.... now,... put yourself in the position of a "retailer" selling (faux and "REAL") blackpowder for muzzleloaders, and it soon becomes a matter of "liability".
The pressures generated by "all the powders" (real blackpowder and the fakes) are comparable and relative by "volume" instead of weight.
HTH
Post by: CowboyCS on March 12, 2009, 03:17:13 PM
Quote from: "mark davidson"
I was wondering WHY the whole shooting world outside black powder measures their powder by weight and BPer shooters still use volume. It's a simple curiosity question????The answer you're looking for is not in the BP by volume, it's in the smokeless by weight. With a lot(most) smokeless powders a change of 1 or 2 grains can make a huge difference in pressure and velocity. With some smokeless a 1 or 2 grain difference can be catastrophic. But with BP 1 or 2 grains is not even noticeable without some fairly serious pressure measuring equipment.
Post by: mark davidson on March 12, 2009, 03:27:14 PM
Post by: rollingb on March 12, 2009, 03:51:25 PM
Quote from: "mark davidson"
RB, I get it now; it's the lawyers' fault! :-)
Weeeelll kind'a,.... you must understand that blackpowder (the "real" stuff) has been around for hundreds of years (unlike "smokeless" and the faux substitutes), With the introduction of smokeless which generates a much higher pressure per-grain then real blackpowder, it became very easy to blow any muzzleloading firearm up.
Fast forward to the introduction of the modern "substitute" powders for muzzleloaders and although they kind'a "smoke" like the real stuff, they are still a "flammable solid" just like the cartridge rifles use, and they weigh less then real blackpowder (given the same volume).
The liablity of producing and selling a type of (faux) powder for muzzleloaders, (that weighed less per-volume than the "real" stuff) became a legal issue and all loads reccomended by the producers of the faux powders are strickly by "volume" measured with your humble little adjustable measure instead of scales,.... so yep,.. the lawyers dunnit.
Post by: Voyageur on March 12, 2009, 04:57:56 PM
Post by: R.M. on March 12, 2009, 05:04:40 PM
Post by: Captchee on March 12, 2009, 05:13:21 PM
Lets see if I can attempt to explain it to you .
See BP, unlike smokless , starts out as one BIG grain . Its then crushed and sifted through screens to be sized . There is no consistent size or shape . Again unlike smokes which has a distinct size shape and weight to each grain .
So lets say your weighing out 2 F and its showing that 100 grains weighs about the same as 100 grains by volume .
Now replace that 2 F with 3 F , 4F or 1 F .
Now what you will find is that by volume , they all weigh in at the same weight.
BUT here is the kicker . That weight., volume to volume or weight to weight will produce higher pressure because the burn rate is faster even though it all came from the same original brick of powder .
4F will produce un real pressures at 100 grains . While 1F at the same volume will produce less pressure then 2 F
The other thing that happens is the mix itself weighs differently .
See with smokeless , a given powder , be it red dot or what have you , has a specific chemical make up that dictates its weight .
Black powder is not that way because of the charcoal . See different powder use different woods to make charcoal / swiss uses a given hardwood . Goex a different one and elephant and kick , still different ones . These woods , by their make up have different weights and densities . As such the powder can weigh more and in fact in some cases like with swiss , actually produce high pressures then the same weight an volume as goex . Synthetic are not this way as they are made with chemicals much like smokeless is made .
Now that all being said . Some folks do weigh each charge . These folks are normally long range tournament shooters must have every load exactly the same . However the ones I know do not use the same process as you would use for say reloading cartridges . What they do is once they find a volume load that works well . They then compress the powder and re figure the volume . They then weigh that volume and record it .
Then on the next shot they do the same thing again so as to insure that everything is exactly the same as before . Basically they do everything in their power to ensure absolute minute to minute consistence . So whats left is to control their own human inconsistency
But even then these folks are for the most part starting out with a volume of powder so as to define the weight
I would also agree with the others here . Unless your going to carry pre measured charges . There is no reason to go through the hassle of weighing charges unless you shooting for a string at 40 rods or better
Post by: greyhunter on March 12, 2009, 05:48:58 PM
Like yours and other members explanations. Good to know. regards GH.
Post by: Gambia on March 12, 2009, 07:49:35 PM
Post by: Three Hawks on March 12, 2009, 08:22:12 PM
Quote from: "mark davidson"
Before I figured out that 100 grains of 2F was still 100grains on the scale, I was paranoid.....paranoid in my experimentation that I would radically overcharge trusting the volumetric measure and not really knowing how much it weighed! Thanks again.
Paranoia is the unreasoning fear of something that isn't there. On the other hand just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.
Test fire your gun(s) until you get a charge/patch/lube/ball combination that is accurate enough to make you happy. Then stick to it. The best, if not easiest, method is to make up a fixed measure for each gun. Then stay as best you can with that load. Don't concern yourself with what the magnumschootzenboomer crowd do, use your own load.
With my .50 I started by firing five shots at the smallest load in my Dixie adjustable measure. According to Dixie that was forty grains. Then I wiped the bore and fired 5 more at the next increment on the measure, supposedly five grains. I kept doing that until I got to the load that caused groups to open up. Then I went back to the one which was most accurate. After that, I tried different patches, lubes and powders. I now shoot approximately 60 grains of Goex 3F, a .490" cast RB in a .015" pillow ticking patch greased with pure lard. That is the load that works in my rifle.
I say approximately because I weigh a charge out of each new can of powder with my measure. It varies as much astwo grains either way for a variance of four grains with some cans of Goex 3F. So don't get all hung up on weight. The volume is much more important.
After I got a load that made all the holes as close together as I could, I went to work on the sights, filing and hammering until all those close together holes now go into the middle of a six inch bullseye at fifty yards. I have to hold over a hand width at a hundred, and a handwidth and a half at 125. Any further off and I'll try to get closer.
Three Hawks
Post by: mark davidson on March 13, 2009, 09:41:02 AM
Post by: Sir Michael on March 13, 2009, 08:01:50 PM