Traditional Muzzleloading Association

Traditional Firearms => Flintlock Long Guns => Topic started by: mark davidson on March 31, 2009, 11:53:40 AM

Title: Which vent liner is best?
Post by: mark davidson on March 31, 2009, 11:53:40 AM: My first custom flinter had a standard vent liner with a narrow screwdriver slot for installation and removal. A new rifle I have now has a liner with a deep allen head hole in it for installation and removal with the actual hole into the charge at the bottom of the allen head hole. Thirdly, I have read much about the white lightening coned liner. Which of the three is best, fastest, most reliable??? The allen head one seems a little slower but I am too new at this to really tell. I have never shot a white lightening but I am not opposed to putting one in the two new guns that I have being built. I know to keep the pan clean and dry and not to use too much powder and to pick the vent hole ....etc... I just want to know which of the three liners you guys think is best, fastest, and most reliable. Thanks in advance for your input. :-)
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Post by: mark davidson on March 31, 2009, 12:20:49 PM: I have no idea what brand the ones I have on my guns are. Obviously, I want no part of the platinum ones! :-) The main difference I can see is that the one with the screwdriver slot has the hole flush with the outside of the barrel while the allen head one has the small hole recessed back at the bottom of the allen head hole. I figured one was likely more desirable than the other so I thought I would ask which is faster and more reliable.
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Post by: Uncle Russ on March 31, 2009, 12:23:33 PM: I have had several Chambers liners. "White Lightening" I believe they are called, and they are just fine.

I have also drilled the standard vent liner, from the back, with a #1 Countersink, and that seems to work quite well, and cost a bit less.

On the other hand, I have an old .69 cal that has no liner, just a plain ol' hole, and that seems to work okay too.
However, it has taken it from the late 1960's until a few years back to become large enough to work really well!

Typically speaking, the size of the hole makes all the difference and there is no real agreement on the best size.
Others may argue it's the location of that vent hole in relation to the pan, and If I were an arguing man this is the side I would take.

Not much help, I suspect. But the two factors mentioned, size and location, is something that needs to be worked out each individual rifle......that would be my best guess.

Uncle Russ...
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Post by: Bigsmoke on March 31, 2009, 01:12:52 PM: The Treso liner that looks like brass, has a screwdriver slot etc. is a pretty good liner, but IMHO, the hole is WAY small. I think they offer another style that is installed proud with a nipple wrench, then filed off to offer a flat surface. Good liner, but still needs the hole enlarged.
The stainless liner with the Allen head is pretty good, but kind of glares at you in a custom rifle.
White Lightning? Never tried it, but have heard lots of praises for it. I would probably try that one first.
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Post by: jbullard1 on March 31, 2009, 01:17:20 PM: Mark
I'm using the standard liner Jack sells, the ones I have are coned on the inside and have a screwdriver slot. I did take a countersink and lightly cone the outside without changing the hole size
I can't tell any difference in the ignition of my flintlocks vs caplocks
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Post by: Indiana on March 31, 2009, 01:56:23 PM: I've had 100% reliability with my Chambers White Lightening liner so far. Easy to install and barely noticeable.
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Post by: mark davidson on March 31, 2009, 01:59:13 PM: Thanks for the information. So what size do you guys think is a standard good size for the touch hole? I mean, venture an opinion here or two or three! Then I can measure mine and see how close it is to what you guys already know works.
Jerry, do you feel that coneing the outside of your Garner liner helped a good bit? That is sure an easy and inexpensive way to improve ignition? Also if the standard Jack Garner liner is already coned on the inside, what is the difference between it and the much touted white lightening?
Sorry for the thousand questions here but I am going to have three of these darn things before long and I want to use the quickest and best system on them all and I am too inexperienced to know what that is or how big a hole to bore etc.......
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Post by: jbullard1 on March 31, 2009, 02:18:52 PM: Mark
I don't know if the small modification helped any
It was an idea I had and it looked good
I do get fast ignition IF I get a Flash in the pan
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Post by: mark davidson on March 31, 2009, 02:26:49 PM: Jerry,
Thanks for the tip. I may try it on one gun and see if it seems to help.
By the way, I talked to my gunsmith just a moment ago and he has not got the barrel you want off of the action yet. He is covered up busy and it may be a few days. It is still yours soon as I get it in my hand. Just wanted to let you know I had not forgotten.
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Post by: jbullard1 on March 31, 2009, 02:30:16 PM: Thanks Mark
I am in no hurry
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Post by: FG1 on March 31, 2009, 02:32:31 PM: 1/16" is pretty standard and no larger than 5/64" is the widely accepted norm.
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Post by: Uncle Russ on March 31, 2009, 02:39:10 PM: Quote from: "FG1"
1/16" is pretty standard and no larger than 5/64" is the widely accepted norm.

Yep, Whut Frank seez....

Uncle Russ...
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Post by: Mitch on March 31, 2009, 02:54:25 PM: the smallest touchhole that will give you the fastest ignition..I start at 1/16th and work up....most of my "good shooters" have a small hole and a fast lock
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Post by: tg on March 31, 2009, 02:54:34 PM: I tried something new and revolutionary on my last gun....i just drilled a 5/64 hole in the barrel coned it from the inside with a flattened finish nail..who would have thought something so simple would have worked, I can't tell the difference between this gun and my Chambers gun, go figure.
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Post by: FG1 on March 31, 2009, 03:54:28 PM: tg , I saw in a book somewhere that some of the old timers did similar. They drilled a hole in from left side of barrel and countersunk the inside of touch hole then threaded and plugged the left side hole .
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Post by: nessy357 on March 31, 2009, 04:28:11 PM: If you go with number drills, there are 3 sizes between 1/16" and 5/64" .

Here is a link to drill size chart, for reference.

http://www.csgnetwork.com/drillsizeconvert.html (http://www.csgnetwork.com/drillsizeconvert.html)

Cheers Bob.
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Post by: tg on March 31, 2009, 08:45:33 PM: There is also an eggbeater looking tool found in europe that was used to cone from the open breech if I recall corrfectly.
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Post by: mark davidson on April 01, 2009, 10:17:06 AM: Thanks to all for the excellent information. Sounds like at least some form of coneing on the inside is a good thing. A coned liner is a pretty simple improvement it seems. Drilling the hole out a little bigger is an easy operation as well. Thanks again.
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Post by: rollingb on April 01, 2009, 10:26:04 AM: I use Ampco liners in my flinters, and I drill'em out to 5/64 as soon as I install them.

Fast ignition and no complaints so far.
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Post by: Uncle Russ on April 01, 2009, 11:25:42 AM: Quote from: "rollingb"
I use Ampco liners in my flinters, and I drill'em out to 5/64 as soon as I install them.

Fast ignition and no complaints so far.

Personally, I think this is the way to go. It is not only economical, but you can use a countersink and "cone" as much as you like....even on both sides, if that is what you feel is best.

Uncle Russ...
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Post by: mark davidson on April 01, 2009, 12:05:13 PM: Is there any theoretical "downside" to drilling out the hole to 5/64? Why do they not already come that way and coned as well?
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Post by: mark davidson on April 01, 2009, 12:06:41 PM: Also, are you guys drilling the liner out while it is in your rifle or are you taking it out and putting it in a drill press or what? Can you just drill it out right there while it is in the gun with a basic hand drill and a 5/64 bit?
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Post by: Uncle Russ on April 01, 2009, 12:21:22 PM: Mark, You need a drill press, and a drill vise....a small vice that bolts to your drill plate.

This ain't Rocket Science......far from it!
But you do need to do this as neat and "professional" as possible, because you want to be able to take it back out, and prevent marring and "chatter" if possible....a good clean cut/drill will prevent build-up.

You can do this!

Now why we do it all the time and the manufacturers don't, is anyone's best guess. I do it because it works better.

However, if you noticed in post awhile back, I said I had a Muzzleloader that has no vent liner, I have had this gun for close to 40 years and ignition has gotten better over time...why do you think this is?
I think it's because the flash hole has eroded over time and become larger..on both sides of the barrel.

Uncle Russ...
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Post by: BEAVERMAN on April 01, 2009, 12:30:32 PM: Mark, other factors in flint performance come into play also, check the link here and do some reading lots of info on rock lock performance

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured- ... /index.php (http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/index.php)
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Post by: tg on April 01, 2009, 12:31:17 PM: "Is there any theoretical "downside" to drilling out the hole to 5/64? Why do they not already come that way and coned as well?"

There has ben a lot od experimentation that shows 1/16 is the optimum size for limiting loss of pressure thru the vent and a bunch of other rocket science stuff, more and more folks are going back to a 5/64 hole or a size smaller and a bit of conning in or out with no liner and finding it works well, the liners are even being opened up a bit past what is "best" this is a situation that what works out best on paper can be improved upon in real life, one needs to slowly open up the hole and see how thins go the powder charge may need uped a bit, it is pretty much a matter of whether one wants the fastest possible ignition or use the technology and methods that worked for over two hundred years
Let's see, what would Mr. Knight and mr. Bridges do?
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Post by: mark davidson on April 01, 2009, 02:21:59 PM: Russ, Thanks for the walk through. I can actually get access to a good milling machine so I can chuck up the liner or the whole gun and make sure it is straight and get a good clean hole. It sounds like an error on the side of bigger might be better than a more conservative approach. I'll try 5/64 and see how that does. Losing a few feet per second is no big deal and a willing tradeoff for faster ignition and more reliable ignition. I bet folks experimented with these same things two hundred years ago so I can see nothing "non-traditional" about drilling a bigger hole. :-)
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Post by: tg on April 01, 2009, 03:55:43 PM: Just add a bit more powder if you think you are loosing to much umph thru the vent.
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Post by: jbullard1 on April 01, 2009, 04:17:13 PM: Mark
I don't think you need to error "On the large side " very much
1/16" = 4/64"
Not doubting your abilities but if you go over 5/64 you have a self pan priming situation with ffg.
I got a serious wakeup call at our last shoot from a fellow that had a larger than 5/64" vent hole and I was 8 paces away
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Post by: mark davidson on April 02, 2009, 09:07:26 AM: Jerry, Thanks for the caution. I assure you that I am not going to get drill happy. I just read above somewhere that there were three sizes between "standard" and the upper limit of 5/64. Therefore, I meant that I would likely just start at the max with 5/64 since the concensus seemed to be that a little bigger was better than a little smaller.
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Post by: Captchee on April 02, 2009, 11:43:41 AM: TG is correct . A vint hole is not just a hole . There are actual cherries that are used to cone out the hole from the inside of the barrel so as to only leave minimal wall thickness between the main charge and the pan .
One of the reasons Manton used a liner was that over time this wall thickness burns away and you get a flash hole that’s to large . The liner material was more resistant to gas cutting and thus lasted longer .

As to why they don’t come this way .
Well here are a few
1) flash hole placement can very
2) type of flash hole . EI do you want a liner or don’t you
3) liability . This is a very big one . And is the reason many barrel companies no long sell barrels that are breeched and drilled . Basically when you buy a barrel, even though its called a rifle barrel , it’s a non functioning item until you set the breech plug and drill it for the liner or bolster . when you do that , you just released the company from a very large % of liability .

Myself I only offer a drilled and cherried flash hole IF requested . Other then that I install liners in all my rifles I offer . I use the smallest liner I can get IE thread size ¼ -28 .
The reason for that is that over time if a person needs to replace the liner and they damage the threads , the hole can then be re tapped for a larger liner . Now of course this size depends on the rifle but , you get the point ..

Also something to keep in mind is that the higher the charge and heavier the bullet , the more resistance is caused and thus the higher the pressure forced out of the flash hole . Thus creating greater gas cutting / wear to the thin face wall of the liner ..
Like Russ though I do like the Ampco liners . Jims , white lighting may be just a tad faster but personally I cant see any real difference. They do fit alittle tighter do to being able to grip the liner better , but past that I see no real overwhelming differences
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Post by: mossie on April 21, 2009, 03:55:22 AM: The new ones from TC with the hex head and coned interior work just fine for my TC PA Hunter rifles. The hole size is just right for 2f in my opinion. I replace them every time I buy a new box of balls.
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Post by: Roaddog on April 21, 2009, 04:03:39 AM: Why would you replace the liner after 100 round of balls?
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Post by: tg on April 21, 2009, 12:36:47 PM: "I replace them every time I buy a new box of balls."

I also find this interesting, and am interested in the reasoning. you can change it after every shot if you chose but I have never seen anything like this before.
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Post by: Three Hawks on April 21, 2009, 05:16:27 PM: A vent liner is less than $5. If a man wants to spend less than the cost of a mixed drink to feel confident in the ignition of his rifle, go for it.

Mossie, give me your address, and I'll send you a buck and a self addressed stamped shipping envelope . Save up a few spent liners and mail 'em to me.

Three Hawks
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Post by: Uncle Russ on April 21, 2009, 05:25:45 PM: Quote from: "tg"
"I replace them every time I buy a new box of balls."

I also find this interesting, and am interested in the reasoning. you can change it after every shot if you chose but I have never seen anything like this before.

Like tg, I would also like to hear more about this.

I'm not here to say it's right or wrong, I would just like to hear why / how something like this can be beneficial.
Ignorance, or simply not knowing something, can often be bliss, and I openly admit to being totally ignorant of this.

As has been mentioned, Vent Liners are not terribly expensive, and if the benefits are worth it, I would not be opposed to changing my liners more often that I do. It's just that up to now I have never seen a need.

So, PLEASE elaborate a bit more on the rational for this.

Respectfully, Uncle Russ...
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Post by: Sir Michael on April 21, 2009, 09:01:38 PM: Interesting discussion. :toast