Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Traditional Firearms => Caplock Long Guns => Topic started by: IronDawg on November 20, 2009, 12:51:30 PM
-
I have a few questions regarding cva MT. RIFLES.
Mainly barrel twist rate or "usual standard" twist rate at what most of them are) As well as an idea of how much drop there is in the comb.
I have a TC hawken here in 45 cal. The rifle shoots well. Even with the previous owner not taking real good care of it and with the 1:48 twist....... it still deals with a .440 round ball quite nicely out to 100yds.
My issues aren't the rifle even though she's been "well used" my issues are the stock. I'm an ex MMA guy. My orbital socket has been crushed a couple times and my cheek bone broke as well there's scar tissue up there beneath my cheek bone. The TC stock actually rides right up beneath my cheekbone in order to get my head down on the sites. What this causes is a feeling close to someone accidentally elbowing you under your cheek bone everytime I pull the trigger.
Not good. My southern mt. doesn't get close to it. Neither does my great plains.
Now I know there's aftermarket stocks and such. And believe me if it was a 32, a 36, or a 50 caliber?? I would go that route. But I have a 40 and a 44 already, so having this 45 cal also is sorta silly when there's other calibers out there I want worse..
So instead of having a rifle thats uncomfortable to shoot I offered it up for trade. A friend of mine in Indiana has a CVA mountain rifle in 50 cal percussion. He also has every caliber of TC hawken ACCEPT 45. and he wants to swap.
But he can't tell me off hand (he's not at home) what the rifling twist is, or if there's more drop to the comb on the CVA than his TC hawkens,
I have no experience with CVA sidelocks so I don't know if they have a decent lock, are a decent gun or even if they come with a barrel that accepts roundballs well.
Any notions, info, hints, ideas or directions you guys could send me in would be much apreciated.
-
Captchees the man to talk to about CVA, hes worked on many and has restocked more than a few
-
Most if not all of the CVA Mt. Rifles were 1:66 twist, from what I have seen.
The lock on the Mt. Rifle is typical CVA, pretty good except for the mainspring, which has a tendency to get awful weak after a bit.
-
I believe most CVA rifles have a 1-66 twist. IMHO, the CVA Mountain Rifle is a great looking rifle. The best one that CVA made. They are not near the quality of a USA made Thompson Center though.
-
ID how is your barrel marked on it? do you know if it's an older CVA or not?
-
Didn't some early CVA Mountain Rifles have Douglas made barrels?
-
Thats why I'm asking!
-
Yup, If its stamped MADE IN USA it is a Douglas.
-
Mark, I have one of the more modern Mt Rifles. On mine, the drop at the heel is 3 1/8 and at the comb is 1 1/4. 1:66 twist. This rifle will shoot right alongside my Rice barreled rifle. Just took a lot longer to break in.
-
OK so I should expect or guess it's going to be 1-66. Thats the same as my lyman and my lyman loves round balls. So thats good.
And from the sounds she has a decent drop to the stock as well.
As far as the make On the barrel I dunno. I should find out tonite.
And yes I sort of figured CVA was not going to be on par with a thompson center. But it can be the most well made finest looking rifle in the world. If it's not comfortable for me to shoot?? I won't shoot it and it will just sit in the corner. no use in that.
-
ID, I agree with a couple of things.
I believe you will find your rifle to have a 1:66 twist.
I believe you will find the CVA MTN Rifle to be one of the sweetest, easy to carry and shoot rifles, you could ever pick up.
And, I also believe you're right when you said something to the effect that if it don't fit right, it could well end up sitting in a corner.
It is not a T/C by any means, but it is one sweet rifle.
If you can live with out that T/C, I would not hesitate a NASCAR second in trading it off!
I'm sure there are many who will disagree with me on this, and that's the very reason we have more flavors of Ice-Cream that just Vanilla.
Uncle Russ...
-
I wouldn't turn down the CVA Mountain Rifle. I think it's a better looking gun than the T/C Hawken. I just don't play with cap guns anymore (my Colt 1861 rifled musket excluded). And I totally agree that the best gun in the world is worthless if it doesn't feel right.
-
I wouldn't turn down the CVA Mountain Rifle. I think it's a better looking gun than the T/C Hawken. I just don't play with cap guns anymore (my Colt 1861 rifled musket excluded). And I totally agree that the best gun in the world is worthless if it doesn't feel right.
David, I still got the moulds for that riflegun of your's!
:rotf
I agree with David...If I were to own a cap gun again I would want it to be another 1861 Colt. That dog will hunt!
Uncle Russ...
-
Oh I can definately live without it! Never been much on name brands. I mean in some things they mean something. others they don't. I've always been more along the lines of what works best for me. I own several (14) thompson center firearms, if we include barrels So I know they are extremely well put together and crafted weapons..
But to be honest if someone woulda offered me a traditions crockett 32 or shenandoah 36? I woulda went that route as well. doesn't matter if I'm trading up or down, just matters if I'm getting a caliber or rifle I need more. Right now my squirrel gun is a squirrel MANGLER! So I woulda went for a lil gun as well.
I actually even thought about exchanging the stock out for a nice full stock with more drop. But again like I said if it woulda been a 50?? I may have. But I have already have several 40 sumpin calibers and want a few more 50 sumpin calibers.
And think I'd rather wait and put that stock money towards an honest to goodness good kit thats gonna make me the rifle I really wanna carry everytime I go to the woods.
Only gots one flinter right now. I want another one real bad. But gotta learn how ta use em a bit more better first. My next flinter will be a 50 sumpin caliber. Thought about 50, but also thought "I fthis deal goes through I'll have 50 and 54 in percussion....... so why not 58 in flint?
whatsa 1861 colt? pistol?
-
why not?
-
I can understand where you are coming from. T/Cs are well built rifles but I never found one that fit me. Larger hunting and 100 yard loads always smacked my cheekbone.
The Mountain Rifle has a little more drop than the T/C and may work for you. I had the same problem with the CVA stock as the T/C - just the way I'm built I guess. I put a Leman stock on my Mountain Rifle. It gave me the 15 inch pull I like and a little more drop. I've been using that rifle for thirty years and was the best thing I did for it.
-
Well I think the guys have pretty much covered it .
The CVA mountain rifle has about ¾ to maybe 1 inch more drop at the heal then the TC does .
IF its an original .
Today , if I recall TC and CVA both use an average 2 ½ to 2 ¾ drop at the heal . Myself I personally don’t think this fits anyone well . But it is more along the lines of center fire dimensions and this more acceptable to those who seem to want a scope mounted ..
I could be wrong as I have not seen or measured one of the mountain rifles put out by cabin creek . They say its supposed to be off of the original CVA mountain rifle stock pattern
The Mountain rifle though was CVA’s flagship . The American made model minus issues with the main springs is and was every bit as well built as anything TC has made .
The barrel should be a 1 in 66 . If its marked made in the USA it will be a Douglas or Sharon barrel .
Its worthy to not here that these barrels were extruded NOT drawn as is the standard for all companies today .. I have read where Douglas had an issue with this as did many other barrel makers during that time . Basically as I understand it the barrels would crack during the breeching .
Myself though I personally have never heard of one failing after completion and have become to be very sought after despite being made from extruded steel . So much so that in the last few year the prices of used CVA mountain rifles with barrels stamped “ MADE IN THE USA” have climbed to near or past used TC rifles . In fact I have seen them sell for more then a New Lyman.
I think this has also helped cabin creek boost its cost of the new mountain rifles somewhat .
Now why I say probably it’s a 1 in 66 .
Up untell a few months of ago I would have stood up and stated flat out that CVA never produced a barrel in any of it traditional rifles in anything but 1 in 66 . But recently I took an early CVA Kentucky in on trade . The PO stated he never could hit a can at 10 ft with the rifle . One of the reasons I snagged it was because the barrel is un marked . As I said very early CVA . Possibly a Sharon or Douglas barrel . Which as I understand it ,were also used on a very limited number of Kentucky’s during 2 very limited production runs by CVA .
The first was run was a full stock Kentucky . Second was the two piece stock and just prior to CVA switching over to Jukar contracts .
It sat out in my shop for a few months before I had a customer that wanted a revamp . When I took it down to check the rifle out , I found something very odd and told the customer I could not revamp the rifle for them . I have not measured it but it may be as fast as 1 in 12 . How that barrel got on that rifle is beyond me . Its to fast a twist for most anything . I have thought about it often am have come to the possibility that it may have been a blank that was intended for pistol stock and somehow found its way into the rifle barrel pile ????
So I would ask your friend to check the twist . I would be 99.99% sure his mountain rifle would be a 1 in 66 . But CVA did so many different things through the years , one cannot be 100% certain without checking it .
As to your stock issues ..
My honest opinion IronDawg is that you can spend a lot of time and money buying production guns . Searching for ones with a little more drop . Then what is standard today . The traditions Pennsylvania and Kentucky both have lots of drop . But the also carry the roman nose type comb . Which for me , beats my face up..
Or you can just settle for the fact that your best option is a custom stock that is cut to fit your need .
With your rotator cup issue , I would thing you would need something designed to be shot from the should not from the arm IE no croissant butt.
Also something with a large amount of drop and cast off , so as to have the sight plain center of the eye , while the neck is erect. IE not leaning forward and minimal tilting of your neck .
You simply not going to find that in any production gun
Anything that has the creissant or simi cresant butt plate and thus meant to shoot off the for arm just off the shoulder or right on the joint of the shoulder is going to cause you issues with heavier loads and especially in heavier calibers. Combine that with a short drop where you have to twist and lean . Its all going to throw more pressure right in to your rotator
The butt plate on the Mountain rifle is somewhat like what you have on your Lyman . However the distance from the heal to toe is as I recall about 1 inch less then the lyman .
Anyway , I have wrote more here then probably was needed . Hope it helps you some
-
DANG! thanks Cap. And thanks eveyone else here as well!
-
OK, it says SPAIN on the barrel so I'm guessing a "douglas" is out. But it's 1-60 twist. and on it's way here.