Post by: IronDawg on December 10, 2009, 07:33:52 PM
I'm just about talked in to forgoing lube and just using spit patches. I mean hey I gotta endless supply there and its one less thing I have to fumble around in my bag lookin for.
BUT we all know a good lube eases in loading. But would it also have an effect on "unloading" as the charge went off?? or is the charge so significant a push it makes lube types insignificant?
has anyone experimented with different patch lubes on the range and saw any difference in accuracy or bullet impact??
See I got to thinkin.... if I load my rifle Saturday morning with a spit patch.. and I don't get a shot until sunday evening?? Do I not in fact pretty much have a dry patch wrapped around my roundball?? is this going to shoot the same as a freshly loaded patch ball combo?? is the spit patch going to impact differently than say bore butter??
Or is the details and measurements of impact too insignificant to matter??
Post by: rollingb on December 10, 2009, 08:49:53 PM
Having said that,... I "never" use a spit-patch when hunting. The spit can cause a rust ring to develope near the breech end of the barrel, and when dried out, offers NO LUBE to the barrel of the gun when fired.
I'm NOT a fan of bore butter either,... I make my own blend of lube using bear's oil and bee's wax.
My routine calls for a spit-patch when shooting targets,... and my blended lube for hunting.
Post by: jim m on December 10, 2009, 09:29:43 PM
Post by: Three Hawks on December 10, 2009, 09:41:56 PM
In those fifty years I have had good success with Wondra Hand Lotion, Moose Milk, Olive Oil, Crisco, White Lithium Grease, Bear Grease, Goose Grease, 10W-30 Valvoline Motor Oil, 1000 Wonder Lube, A Dozen Or So Other Goopy Concoctions, all reputed and testified to as having sundry Majikal Properties including but not limited to curing the evil effects of: bad aim, poor powder, dull flints, scabies, cancer of the tongue and throat, rust, hives, scoliosis, dry skin, the grippe, boils, weeping lesions and pernicious infertility of cows, ewes, concubines, sows, wives and mares.
I still like lard. It's cheap, it's available everywhere and it doesn't stink. Crisco or any of the twelve hundred house brands of veggie shortening work as well. I just like lard.
Your mileage, as always, may vary,
Three Hawks
Post by: Riley/MN on December 10, 2009, 10:10:34 PM
Quote from: "Three Hawks"
...no ululated incantations and funny hats...Oh, man... :rt th
Post by: graybeard on December 10, 2009, 10:15:45 PM
Post by: jim m on December 10, 2009, 10:20:14 PM
Post by: jim m on December 10, 2009, 10:22:50 PM
Post by: Three Hawks on December 11, 2009, 02:11:18 AM
Quote from: "jim m"
hey three hawks, you using the unsalted lard or do you think it makes a difference. never thought about lard, but don't see any reason why it wouldn't work
Plain, unsalted lard. I don't think salt would help your barrel out any. I've also used Veggie shortening, it works just as well.
Mmmm Mmmm! Lard 'n onion sammiches. Given my 'druthers I prefer plain onion with mayo. Half an inch of Walla Walla Sweets, Vidalias or Maya Sweets on wheat bread with at least twice as much Mayo as you'd usually use. Heaven.
Lonely ol'
Three Hawks
Post by: melsdad on December 11, 2009, 04:55:40 AM
So to answer your question, and to stop my rambling. Yes, to me a lube can make a difference in accuracy! And please stay away from the garbage in the tube called TC bore butter!! I noticed, that once I finally got all the crud left in my barrel by the BB scrubbed out, my accuracy improved even more!!
I also noticed that using a spit patch, or my Moose Milk lubed patches there is no difference in accuracy at all. I also use a lube called Moose Snot for hunting with balls loaded in a ball block. This is a thicker paste that will not freeze when it get darn cold in the late season.
If you want the recipes for the 2 lubes I use I can post them up for you.
Post by: Captchee on December 11, 2009, 07:27:24 AM
What patch lube you use can make a big difference in accuracy . It just depends on the rifle . Some bores are more forgiving of lubes , others not . If you set down and actually work up a load for your rifle , you will see it ..
I would have to say that a whole lot of folks out there don’t know how to work a load . They just try something . Do a small adjustment for powder . Maybe a different patch thickness and call it good
But if your looking for every last nickel of performance, working a load isa rather long process thats for some never ending .
i know a fella i shoot often with . he is in his late 60's and has been muzzleloading since dirt was a baby .
the man is a fanatic on his load . right down to ball sizes , wieghts . weaves thicknesses and lubes . he is always in the top 1 or 2 places unless he just is having a real bad day . but you ask him how his rifle is shooting and he will tell you with a strait face , while looking at a tie breaker card that he just put 3 shot in the same hole at 25 yards off hand ,,, ahhh my load is still off some .
leaving you standing there wonder ??? For crying out load , i call that a fantstic load !!!!
work on your lubes . Try different ones tell you find the one your barrel really likes.
If it turns out that highly salted bacon grease improves the performance , then use it .
Everything natural has some level of salt in it , to include BP .
Just make sure you clean up your bore after your done shooting . Which you should be doing anyway .
Its not a car finder that your going to never clean under
IMO the worring about salts is like worring about how corrosive BP is or can be . take care of your gun after shooting and it will last
let it set out in the drive way like a car thats been driven for years on salted roads with out ever having the undercarage cleaned . then you deserve all the rust the good lord can give you .
Now that being said . I use ONLY spit .
Let me say that agin for all to here . I ONLY USE SPIT FROM MY OWN MOUTH “ to lube my patches , be it target shooting or hunting . I have done this for near 19 years in a hand forged barrel ,
There is no rust where the ball seats . There is no rust at the muzzle .
In fact there is no rust inside the bore of that rifle at all
I have hunted all day and never had an issue with accuracy from a patch that’s dried out
I have hunted in temps well below zero . Temps where the pillow ticking patch material has frozen to my rifle bag strap . And still never seen an issue with accuracy . Did the patch freeze in the bore ?? Maybe . I never pull them to see . Did it dry out ?? Maybe again I do not pull them and see .
But I have shot enough in very cold temps , with loads that have been in the bore for minutes to all day , to say , none of the above happens or if it does ,,,,,,,,,,, maters
Does the powder charge foul ??? Again a NOPE sorry . Maybe it could if you let some dairy cow slobber on your patch tell its dripping an oozing , then I could maybe see it .
Again , myself I do not and have not for near 19 years of owning that rifle , used anything but spit as a patch lube . Not only for target shooting but also for hunting
It might not work for you but it sure works Skippy for me ,
If you do chose to use a lube , I would agree with the others here . Stay as far away from the TC lube as you can
I have heard some folks say its just Crisco with additives.
I don’t believe it and if im wrong and it is then TC would be better to leave the additives out and then buy out Crisco and put the TC log on all the cans
I know they have this vidio where they shot supposedly 1000 times with wonder lube .
Well that’s all and good . But I have found from helping others who use it , the fastes way to foul a barrel and then have to run a patch every 5-15 shots is to put that stuff down your bore .
I don’t care if it’s the natural , spearmint , peppermint or wintergreen flavors . Leave it for the conical shooters
last weekend i shot 27 shots on a trail using spit patches in temps that had to be very near 0 with the wind chill .
it was so cold that the patches would near instantly freeze befor i could cut them.. some times i had to wieght up to 15 minutes to shoot the target. i never had to run a cleaning patch that whole day . the rifle loaded as easy on the last shot as on the first .
those that shoot with me can attest that i when ever i can , shoot the tie breaker last . " ie get warmed up "
in this case it was actualy near 30 minutes from the time i loaded tell i actualy shot this target . i was freezing and was shaking so bad i had to step down from the line . have a cup of coffee and smake my pipe so as to warm back up
i ssure you all if the patch was going to freeze , it would have done it .
if it were to effect accuracy , it would have been seen with this shot .
granted this could be better but i was cold so give me a break
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/DSC00453.jpg)
Post by: IronDawg on December 11, 2009, 11:17:13 AM
MELSDAD,
YES I would like those moose milk and snot recipes.
lard and onion sammiches?? NO!! I would NOT like those recipes!!
Post by: melsdad on December 11, 2009, 11:22:46 AM
Stumpy's Moose Juice
A general purpose blackpowder solvent and liquid patch lube. Shake well before using
Castor Oil 3 oz.
Murphy's Oil Soap 1 oz.
Witch Hazel 4 oz.
Isopropyl Alcohol (91%) 8 oz.
Water (non-chlorinated if available) 16 oz.
I dip my patching in this twice and let it dry laid flat on wax paper in between. Makes a semi-dry patch material that's easy to carry & use. If you don't mind carrying a little bottle it's a GREAT liquid lube as is.
Stumpy's Moose Snot
A premium multi-shot between wiping (10+) patch lube stable over a wide temperature range.
SPECIFICALLY designed for use of patched round balls in a loading block
Beeswax 2 oz.
Castor Oil 8 oz.
Murphy's Oil Soap 1 oz.
Heat beeswax in a soup can set a pot of water. ( A double-boiler. I keep my beeswax in a one pound coffee can and measure out what I need by melting it and pouring it into measuring cups). Add just enough water so the inner can does not begin to float (should be just short of the lube level in the can). Heat the water to a low boil. In a separate can, add the castor oil and Murphy's oil soap (cold). Once the beeswax is melted, swap the castor oil can in the pot of water for the beeswax. Add the beeswax to the oils. It will clump up. Stir with an ice tea spoon as the mixture heats up. When it fully melts there will be a scum that floats to the top and just won't mix in. Be patient. DO NOT COOK THE MIXTURE. Once the solids are dissolved there is no need to heat further. Skim the scum off. Remove the mix from the heat and wipe the water off the outside (so it won't drip into the container when you pour it out). FINAL TOP SECRET STEP: Add a teaspoon of Murphy's Oil Soap and stir vigorously. This last step makes the lube frothy and smooth - really adds to the appearance; though it doesn't seem to matter to the function of the lube. Clamp the can in the jaws of a vice-grip pliers and pour into the waiting tins. Allow to cool a half hour.
Note: it if is a hinged tin - line the edge that has the hinges with a strip of aluminum foil so it doesn't ooze out before it cools.
Post by: mark davidson on December 11, 2009, 11:45:15 AM
Post by: Mitch on December 11, 2009, 02:00:18 PM
Post by: doulos on December 11, 2009, 02:02:03 PM
Post by: mark davidson on December 11, 2009, 02:10:31 PM
Post by: IronDawg on December 11, 2009, 02:35:39 PM
Quote from: "mark davidson"
Sorry to pester but.... what lube is it that comes on pre-lubed ox-yoke patches that I ordered from Track of the Wolf. These are all I have used since I started except for some spit patches. I know what is in the spit; I have no clue what is on these yellow looking ready-made pre-lubed patches. My accuracy is great but I do want to know what the stuff is? Any idea? :-)
The yella prelubed ones are wonderlube if I aint mistaking mark. I dunno what they use on the pre OILED patches. But I tried em. and I dunno. I'm havin trouble finding a place to put a sticky lubed patch. so I usually just wait and lube what ever right before I load. Thats why I was intrested in some of the thicker harder or dryer lubes.
Billy gave me some teflon coated pillow ticking he said doesn't have to be lubed. But I only got a lil bit of it and he aint got anymore. I don't wanna get accustomed to something I can't replicate,.
Post by: mark davidson on December 11, 2009, 03:29:24 PM
Post by: Bigsmoke on December 11, 2009, 03:54:35 PM
Howsomever, that was in the days of the original Ox Yoke, when they were doing the patches and lubes for T/C.
Since they went out of business, RMC bought them and subsequently sold, all bets are off. I haven't a clue as to who is private labeling t/C stuff now. But if I were to guess, nothing has changed.
Post by: jim m on December 11, 2009, 04:14:00 PM
Post by: IronDawg on December 11, 2009, 10:47:07 PM
Post by: Three Hawks on December 12, 2009, 12:40:56 AM
The more things I try as patch lubes, the better I like lard.
Three Hawks.
Post by: Hank in WV on December 12, 2009, 06:58:23 AM
Post by: mark davidson on December 14, 2009, 02:12:20 PM
Post by: Three Hawks on December 14, 2009, 03:50:57 PM
Quote from: "mark davidson"
OK, Thanks to Bigsmoke we now know that ox yoke and bore butter may be the same thing. The pre lubed yellow patches are all I have used. Tell me what the ill effects of these are? I am too new to know. I do know that accuracy is great with them in my experience. What should I be looking for as bad stuff??
As near as I can tell, people don't like the yaller mint flavored bore grease by whatever name it's packaged under because it isn't: Moose Milk, olive oil, crisco, bear grease, goose grease, Ed's Red, Spit, or any one of fifty or sixty patent bore nostrums.
I used it for years, until I ran out and started using lard. I started using lard because I had half a pound in my chuck box when I emptied my little tub of Wonderlube 1000. That's when I discovered that lard works just as well. FOR ME, in my two rifles.
It comes down to individual guns, some like one thing, others like something else. Then there's the odd gun that seems to like everything and the one that doesn't like anything.
This is one of the things that makes shooting frontstuffers fun, messing around until you find that magic combination that works in your gun. Sometimes you'll hit it on the first or second try, other times it takes years. Luck of the draw.
A story.
About ten years or so ago I was at a Spring Rrendezvous where I shot a course of fire of 75 shots over two days with my T-C .50 Hawken Rifle. I used cotton patches hand lubed with 1000 Wonder Lube (Bore Butter) over a load of 50 grains of Goex 3F fired with CCI caps. For the entire course of 75 shots I had no need of wiping as fouling was minimal and all loads went down smoothly. When I got home I found that my daughter was in the hospital being treated for injuries inflicted by her "boyfriend". My rifle went into the rack uncleaned where it remained for five months, well into winter. My son and I along with several of his friends by this time had encouraged my daughter's "boyfriend" to emigrate to somewhere far away on the solemn promise of getting the living sh*t kicked out of him each and every time any of the seven or eight of us saw him.
Over time my daughter's injuries healed. I decided to go to a rifle shoot late that fall and that's when I remembered I hadn't cleaned my rifle for eight months. With great trepidation, I ran a clean flannel patch on a jag down the bore. No rust, no damage, just some dirt. I then cleaned the bore with patches wet with warm water only until I got two clean patches, then I dried the bore with dry flannel patches followed by coating it with 1000 WL on a clean patch. That has been my cleaning regimen since. The bore of my rifle remains as good as it was when new, better actually as I deburred the rifling, getting rid of a "hard spot" about ten inches down from the muzzle some years back, but that's another story.
Was the WL 1000 the reason there was no damage to my rifle over those five or so months? I dunno for certain. The fact is the only thing in that bore was black powder fouling and 1000 Wonder Lube. Draw what conclusions you will.
Three Hawks
Post by: Gambia on December 14, 2009, 05:35:22 PM
Post by: flintlock62 on December 14, 2009, 05:36:37 PM
Has anyone ever tried teflon impragnated patches? I have only shot them a couple of times, but seems promising.
Post by: Riley/MN on December 14, 2009, 05:58:12 PM
Quote from: "flintlock62"
I hate to even say this, since it is not made any more, but the best lube I have ever found is Falkenberry Juice.
Hmm, I got a bottle round here some place....
Post by: Mitch on December 14, 2009, 06:37:35 PM
Post by: Captchee on December 14, 2009, 06:50:46 PM
never had an issue
remind me of this again though and ill go out and shoot a target in -10 temps and post it
we should still have plent of those day yet to come
Post by: Riley/MN on December 14, 2009, 07:41:07 PM
Quote from: "Mitch"
.....and what the heck do "teflon" and "teflon patches" have to do with TRADITIONAL muzzlelaoding anyway?
I were thinkin that too...
Post by: Mitch on December 14, 2009, 07:48:47 PM
Post by: Riley/MN on December 14, 2009, 07:54:54 PM
Quote from: "Mitch"
Maybe you got greasy spit??<GRIN>.....
Maybe it's got anti-freeze in it?
Post by: Captchee on December 14, 2009, 08:03:27 PM
Quote from: "Riley/MN"
Quote from: "Mitch"Maybe you got greasy spit??<GRIN>.....
Maybe it's got anti-freeze in it?
you know maybe that’s it because i have actually , and don’t repeat this but i have actual shot in weather so cold someone toung froze to the barrel and not had an issthuuuuuee other then my toung ,,,,, er a , it was cold LOL
now while that was a little embarrassing but . it was pretty darn nice to watch and badger the other folks faces with me owning the only bottle in camp that night after winning the bet lol .
Those that laughed groveled very quickly lol
Post by: IronDawg on December 14, 2009, 11:52:21 PM
Quote from: "Mitch"
spit doesn't work when it's below freezing...especially when it's say -10(personal experience!!).....and what the heck do "teflon" and "teflon patches" have to do with TRADITIONAL muzzlelaoding anyway?
Ya know. there are some real gems on this site. Some guys that have truly went above and beyond to help me out..... and then...... this makes the 6th time in less than a month that I've recieved a response like this because apparently my ignorance and lack of knowledge on what is and is not accept is alot more entertaining to "scoff at" instead of just giving a "plolite correction"
OK so let me see... do I go off on a tangent here and a big spill?? Do I respond in the same smart allecky manner?? Do I blow it off?? Do I give the benefit of a doubt? Do I try and explain myself?? directions directions which do I choose?? Oh wait!! If it's ok to give lil smart remarks as responses....
Hello Mitch,
I'm Lance. Nice to meet you. And I don't know what the heck teflon coated pillow ticking has to do with traditional muzzleloading ! I'm new to this, hence all the questions and wondering what to use. If I knew it I wouldn't ask, if I knew it was not used or considered OK, I would not use it. And yes I know Teflon was not around in 1735. I also know half the techniques used, machines used and even some of the materials used in half the poeple on this sites muzzleloaders wasn't around either! It's blue and white stripey pillow ticking with green stuff on the back of it. Thats as far as my knowedge of it goes.
A good friend that builds fine flintlocks and helped get me in to this gave me some to try. I didn't know it was one of the taboo subjects. Funny thing is when I ask him questions that seem to go against the grain, I always get a polite response or answer like "Nah ya don't want to use that... it don't fit in."
See thats the wierd thing about these rifles. We all love them and we all want to learn more about how it used to be done with them. Unfortunately we aren't all born with this knowledge. And even then there are those of us that just got our first, or just started this last summer. We're all NOT 20 plus year veterans at this.
And wouldn't ya know it!! It seems my "what IS and what IS NOT considered traditional for muzzleloaders handbook must have got lost in the mail! Darn the luck!
But hey now I know!! I'll go right out and set fire to the teflon coated pillow ticking, oh wait that won't work, teflon doesn't burn...., I'll just have to bury it.
P.S. All of this could have been avoided with a simple "Dude that teflon stuff aint right for traditional muzzleloaders" see?? See a simple response with no attitude or apearance of looking down your nose at someone.
Post by: Captchee on December 15, 2009, 08:44:24 AM
I know what mitch said may easly come across wrong .
Just as easy lance as your question could come across in many ways .
. Lets step back here and take a look
You ask about Teflon . Where you meaning Teflon like Teflon tape , Teflon automotive spray or whats often called Teflon / no stick cooking spray
Now what does the above have to do with traditional muzzle loading ??
Well thinking on it and when you get right down to it , just about as much as bore butter , wonder lube , uncle mikes supper giraffe.
luggie’s .
I went to the kitchen and pulled out a can of no stick . Guess what the ingredients are
Soybean oils .
Seems like that would make a very good patch lube .
How many folks here recommend RIGG or any of the modern gun oils ?
Can you say petroleum distillates
So while I can fully understand mitch’s posts , I also can understand IronDawg
And his post
So in all fairness Mitch , Irondawgs post could be taken many ways , just as IMO he has taken yours on its face value .
. Now I know sometimes its frustrating . I have a very hard time communicating my thoughts . My writing is not good , nor is my spelling .
But im here because I like to help folks . I enjoys seeing people learn , think for themselves .
It makes my day to read where someone here has ask a question or had a problem and someone gives advice that’s followed by a post say , THANKS , THAT WORKED GREAT .
isn’t that why we are all here ??? Are we all here to learn ?
Mitch says he has had patches freeze to the bore while loading . Myself I never have . But I will now watch and see . Thus applying Mitch ‘s experiences to my own evaluations
Myself I never thought of using None stick for a patch lube .
I just may have to try it some time , might just work well in a rifle that’s having issues of some kind one never knows , I don’t , as I said , never tried it . But now that Irondawg has brought it up , ill do the same thing as ill do with mitch’s post , add it to my information base .
I have tried the teflon sprays. many years back . i did not like what they left in the bore nore how a patched lubes with it loaded in the bore .
was that "traditional" nope . but as i said nether is many of the concoctions many of us post . But we post them because they work for us .
Seriously could you imagine .
A group of fellas sitting around the fire . Maybe its 1740 or 1840 .
One turns to the other ands say . : hay Gopher tail , got any marvel mystery oil on ya . I lost my bottle of patch lube in that river the other day . I still have some Windex and 409 but out of bore butter and wonder lube , got any extra ?
While your looking , I lost my Bore solvent to , got any old thunder ? The pink will do but I like the blue colored one better .
GopherTail replies ; nope Raging Cricket , but I do have some hydrogen peroxide and a bottle of stump’s moose snot here .
it works for me
Folks , we never stop learning , NEVER .
Irondawg . , I will say this . With only a couple exceptions, I try and not take peoples words personal or frank .. . It works very well for this medium if we just try to laughand take everyone as trying to help in their own way . soem folks will gently lead you . others willlet you learn from your own mistakes . yet others will be abrupt . that just the way of people .
Now some of the folks here know me more on a personal base then most . They will tell you that it takes very little for my blood to boil and thus jump right in the middle of someone. it’s a very , VERY hard thing for me to control , as my blood goes from 0-160 in less the 2 seconds . Some of those folks can attest to that lol .
So I want to say , I think you did a very good job with the last post concerning this .
When you do run across something that strikes you wrong , just drive on Airborn . Because for every one of those posts that you may feel is off color in some way , there will be many . Many more that are not.
never , EVER let someon or something stop you from learning or asking questions
Post by: IronDawg on December 15, 2009, 10:11:18 AM
The very first person that made a smart remark as a response to one of my questions was also the third and his member number is LOW. At this point I PMed the fella in person and asked if I did something wrong to offend him because it seemed every comment he made towards me was snide and I was starting to take a shade of offense to it. I told him if there was an issue I would just as soon resolve it now before it escalated any further. Being called a dummy I can handle, being treated like an idiot I can not.
His response was (and I quote) "Boy if your going to swim with the sharks you better grow some teeth" Here's another news flash, I've been involved on the ground level of website message boards that generate in excess of 5 million hits a day. If there's one thing I have?? It's teeth and plenty of bite.
However I choose not to use them most of the time because of not only the persona it gives off, but because you simply catch more flies with sugar than salt.
I know it's hard to see a smile or read emotions in to a typed statement. But the thing I did wrong here was I pretty much dished out venting for SIX smart or snide remarks on Mitch. That was wrong. (shoulda only gave Mitch a "one snide remark" vent LOL!) I took out frustration from all of them on the last one.
From what I've read of his post, Mitch seems to not only be an accomplished hunter but also an excellent shot. I would take his advice as very very sound. But I'll take rudeness from no one regardless of their experience, stature or status.
I'm a real simple fella to figure out.You give?? I try and give more. You nice? I nicer! You rude?? I even more rude. You be a butthole?? This is the land I come as "high ruler" from.
Personally ?? I prefer I polite and respectful, you polite and respectful.
But never not once have I played door matt or punching bag.
As for the "insert forbidden coating here" I honestly have no clue Cap. it's a strip of cut white pillow ticking with blue stripes (just like from wally world) with a slick dry coating on the back thats green. sort of makes the ticking almost feel like it's been starched and ironed. I figured it was ticking so it was OK. I payed the green coating on the backs origin no more attention than I would pay "rem oil" or "bore butter"
Post by: Captchee on December 15, 2009, 11:12:58 AM
what i posted wasnt just for you , or mitch but for everyone here
i think this is a good topic and many , Many folks are learning from it .
I do hear you lance .
im not meaning to make light of this at all .
you have some valide points .
the same rules that apply to the forum apply to the PM system folks .
so lets move back on topic shall we .
would you have a photo of the ticking your speaking of ?
have you tried it .
i cant say i have used that or seen it ??
heck , give it a try , you just may have the next Stump's moose snot , you never know .
were you satisifed or did you find it lacking . what was the results .
now i have used ticking with sizing . this has kind of a sheen to it .
it also tastes rather bad untell you get used to it .
myself i find that in my rifle i get better accracy from un washed ticking over washed ticking . so i no longer wash the pillow ticking before using it .
now if this has something to do with the patch not freezing as Mitch hads discribed ?
i dont know . i find it hard to fathum that eather of us have hunter in any colder weather then the other ???
as i said , i cant say .
Post by: Gambia on December 15, 2009, 11:47:05 AM
Post by: IronDawg on December 15, 2009, 11:50:20 AM
That was about to be another question. The fella that sent me the CVA rifle as part of a trade sent a bunch of roundballs and some ticking. It was obvious the ticking had been washed. Again being a total newb this sort of made a light go off. I'm gathering washing and drying ticking makes it shrink and tightens the weave?? Or does it just make it more soft and supple for wrapping a roundball?? if the latter is the main reasoning then the teflon backed ticking would almost defeat the purpose then because like i said it feels like ya collor on ya dress blues after a good heavy starching.
He also sent me a bunch of roundballs for a 50 cal (none of my rifles are 50 so ammo was part of the deal) They got that white residue that leads gets all over em. I know it may sound like a stupid question but I just need to wipe that off them and go on and use em right?? I mean it wouldn't be good to leave that powdery whitish residue all over em and still expect em to fly as true as a shiny new one would it?
I think I'm going to give Melsdads recipes a few goes, and also going to try LARD
I do believe a spit patch should be the ticket for my squirrel gun though as I shoot more squirrel hunting and always empty the rifle at the end of the day. Last Jan. we had a few days that got down to around 4 degrees in the mts. add a windchill for one day and boy it was C-C-COLD! But normally we get some 19-22 degree mornings that warm above freezing by 9-10 oclock. We don't get those temps you boys up north get down here and when we get close it's only for a day or two. So I htink I'll be OK on the freezing issue. As someone born and raised in Catahoula Parish La.?? I dunno how yall handle that stuff. North Ga. mts. are like alaska to me. (my feet are webbed! ha!)I do not want to use the bore butter for two reasons, one what you guys say about it, and two because Like other things I'm learning, something just doesn't feel right about pulling a plastic squeeze tube out of my possibles bag and squeezing out lube on a patch.
What this has made me realize is even if I cannot come up or find a decent "not too messy" lube?? when and if I rebuild this 50?? I definately need a patch box on it.
Post by: Mitch on December 15, 2009, 12:10:40 PM
Post by: Captchee on December 15, 2009, 12:15:28 PM
but it also takes out the sizing .
from your discription , if it wanst for the color i would almost say its a sizing of some type your seeing . dont know though ,. wouldvery much like to see it.
as to the balls . whe white coating your seeing is called sweet salts . it corossion that grows on lead . its not really to good for you . its what gives you lead poisoning .
well other then being shot lol
as far as changing the way the ball flies . i seriously doubt you will see any real noticable diffrence . ..
try a couple though .
if you want to take it off , just get a Old pan of water and wash them . then once clean you can roll them around in alittle oil and then wipe them off or just shoot em .
i have found though that once the sweetsalts start to grow , it comes back rather quick . so if you find it an issue , do put alittle oil on them .
myself past my conicals , i dont have RB around long enough to get salts on them lol
Post by: IronDawg on December 15, 2009, 01:07:42 PM
Quote from: "Mitch"
If I somehow offended you, I do apologize for you being offended. I'm the same way "online" as I am in person-ask me a question, I'll give an answer...and yep, I'm more than a bit of a "purist"(hence my "snide"comment on teflon)-I will willingly share my knowledge,learn from others and continue on "my" path.....you are welcome in my camp.
No harm no foul. Like I said I shouldn't have taken everything out on you. I apologize as well. I have nothing against being a bit of a purist. Matter of factly I may want to be one. But first I have to actually learn what one is.
Cap.
And there in lies where we differ
. Soon I I figured out the right size roundball for my 54 cal?? within 2 weeks there was 500 of them here. Same with my other rifles and powders. I guess I'm one of those that "OK this works. lets make sure we don't run out" types (LOL!) I think he's just had these round balls stowed away in a box for a long time. I'll rinsde em and oil em down and store them in something more airtight?? wait a minute..... I'm working on an oil tanned leather ball bag. maybe I should store oily balls in it.(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z285/lancecoleman/tefticking.jpg)
And it is no smoother or slicker than it looks. What it is though is springy. I mean if you unroll it?? It springs back and rolls back up. Real memory forming and sorta stiff.
If this pic aint givin ya whatcha need cap PM me yer snail mail addy and I'll send it to ya .
Post by: Two Steps on December 15, 2009, 01:19:47 PM
teflon patches/teflon coated patches are used by competitive shooters more that other folks. These guys do everything they can to wring out every little mm in their groups. I've never used one because (1). They're pretty pricy$$, and (2). I think I can miss just as good with my ticking patch and whatever lube I'm saying magic words over at the moment.If you really want to find out about teflon coated patches, ya might want to post something to one of the long range shooting guys here. I think they can give ya the pros and cons of them.
Al
Post by: Captchee on December 15, 2009, 01:27:23 PM
That is sealed ticking . Last time I saw that was when I was a boy . My mother would use it to make our bed pillows . I guess so that the feathers wouldn’t come through .
Basicly every year she would take the feathers from the old pillow and stuff a new one
don’t know much about it cant say if it’s a type of Teflon or what is used on it .
Did the bolt say Teflon coated ticking ?
2 steps is probably right on this one . One of the truly long range dedicated folks might be better to ask
Post by: IronDawg on December 15, 2009, 01:29:07 PM
I was really just looking for a patch lube that doesn't smear and get all over my other stuff, works well in most conditions and isn't going to make my rounbballs fly like frisbees.
Billy said he got them from a target shooter. Said the guys bore was so tight with his Patch and round ball that you simply HAD to swab between every shot and use a starter or you were NOT going to get a ball down the barrel.
Man I'm a hunter. If I need to load a second shot right then and there?? I don't want no sort of set up that dicates "OK wait..... I need to swab and use a starter and a range rod would be of big help as well" I just wanna dump powder down the barrel, bump the side of the rifle, slap a roundball over a patch and shove it down the barrel until it doesn't go any more.
No bolt Cap.We were discussing patches and how Ivan Boggs uses old blue jeans for patches and experimenting and he just handed me this rolled up strip and told it was teflon coated pillow ticking. Said he aint care for it but I might wanna give it a try.
Post by: mark davidson on December 15, 2009, 01:47:15 PM
Post by: IronDawg on December 15, 2009, 01:56:09 PM
I reckon If I hadda patch box on my rifle those would be a good choice. I bought a few hundred of the ones they call "oil lubed" or "oiled" patches and they seem to work real well.
But without a patchbox on my rifle I find myself fumbling for a lil plastic ziploc baggie of them in my bag. Again not much difference than grabbing a toothpaste lookin plastic squeeze tube. I've squirrel hunted with Billy a few times and asked Cap how he does it (they do the same thing only one likes a spit patch and the other uses a lube) But they both prefer to use long strips of ticking and cut at the barrel. I've tried this and I like the simplicty and function of it. I just have to find a lube and lubing method to go along with it.
Speakin of which it's about that time. I been wrapping up indoor honeydos and scrubbing the bore on this 50 all day. Rains have stopped and it's high time for me to let go of the rifle thats in pieces getting cleaned and grab a rifle thats together and ready to hunt.
I'm off to the woods this evenin. see yall tonite sometime.
Post by: Riley/MN on December 15, 2009, 02:04:23 PM
Quote from: "IronDawg"
I'm off to the woods this evenin. see yall tonite sometime.
Go get em 'Dawg. We will be waiting right here for the details...
Post by: Two Steps on December 15, 2009, 03:18:16 PM
Quote
Billy said he got them from a target shooter. Said the guys bore was so tight with his Patch and round ball that you simply HAD to swab between every shot and use a starter or you were NOT going to get a ball down the barrel.
Yes sir...a lot of those guys use bore sized RBs. It takes 'em a minute, but they know the target is still going to be there when they're ready to hit it...and they do hit it good
Al
Post by: Three Hawks on December 15, 2009, 03:48:31 PM
I've found it makes no discernible difference in accuracy washed or unwashed in MY guns. I prefer it washed as it seems to accept warm lard more easily and works better as cleaning patches if needed.
I tried spit patches. I dry up in about three shots so that one is a non issue.
YMMV.
Post by: mark davidson on December 15, 2009, 03:54:24 PM
Post by: Hank in WV on December 15, 2009, 05:04:19 PM
Post by: rollingb on December 16, 2009, 01:52:58 AM
Quote from: "mark davidson"
Irondawg, Good luck on the hunt. I am taking my smoker to the woods this evening myself! As for trouble and time, I keep one ready-load in one of those plasic tubes with powder in one end and ball and patch in the other. It is super fast to use in hunting. I have tried cutting at the muzzle. Talk about fumbling and time consuming ....that long strip of cloth and having to have a patch knife is just another step I like to avoid by just slapping a precut patch on and cramming the ball down on it with no extra knife retrieval or cut to make and no knife to put back up and no strip of cloth to fold and stow. Keep it simple. I'm outta here for the day myself.
With a little practice, you should be able to load and fire 3 aimed shots per-minute (an honest 60 seconds). I've been doing it for years, and I use patch material in a "strip" and also "cut at the muzzle".
My strip of patch material hangs from the strap of my shooting bag,... my lube is "spit",... and my belt knife (Green River Butcher) serves as (both) "patch knife" AND "ball-starter."
I also "load" AND "prime" from the same horn.
I've found this to be a FAST and SIMPLE way to load/reload with few wasted motions when combined with a "quick blow" down the bore between shots.
As always, YMMV.
Post by: mark davidson on December 16, 2009, 09:12:06 AM
Post by: IronDawg on December 16, 2009, 10:39:07 AM
"load and prime from the same horn" Do you pour your load from the horn into a measurer of some sort then down the barrel?? if not how do you know ya got the right amount down the barrel??
I've primed from my horn before, but the curve in my horn gives me fits (now I know why the fella swapped it off to me as a trade blank) And I normally get as much on the ground as I do in the pan. So I use a lil brass primer flask
Post by: mark davidson on December 16, 2009, 11:16:27 AM
Post by: rollingb on December 16, 2009, 12:26:47 PM
Quote from: "mark davidson"
rolling, Three shots in a minute...that is impressive! I think I am likely more in the three minutes per shot range. :-) How do you measure your powder in that speed loading process? My main focus is hunting and I do not get in that big a hurry really. I use an over powder cushing wad to protect my patch so I have an extra step anyway, an extra run of the ramrod down the barrel. I am likely too meticulous but I am an accuracy freak and I know what it takes to make my gun stroke on out to 100 yards. You likely have yours stroking even at that speed but I am a long way from there yet. I use my speed loader to get ready for a follow up shot hunting and then take my time getting the speed loader ready for when I need it again.
Mark,... I use a deer antler 90 gr. powder measure for my main charge.
I carry the measure "loose" in my shooting bag, along with loose roundballs.
My canvas haversack contains everything else I need for my rifle, such as cleaning tools, spare caps and flints, extra ticking, and etc.,... and I wear it on the opposite side of my shooting bag and horn. :)
I've only been shooting my smoothies for a few years, so I am MUCH slower loading/reloading "shot" loads, compared to roundball loads.
I've found that loading muzzleloaders is pretty much like any other "craft" (done by hand),... the more ya do it, the faster and more proficent, ya git at it.
YMMV
Post by: mark davidson on December 16, 2009, 02:28:27 PM
Post by: Mitch on December 16, 2009, 05:21:37 PM
Post by: rollingb on December 16, 2009, 05:35:58 PM
YMMV
Post by: IronDawg on December 16, 2009, 07:12:08 PM
Not taken snarky at all. But sorry bro ya aint gettin me to stop shootin these guns that easy (HA!!) it's not that I mind the mess (man you don't know what messy is!! lol). It's not only that I'm an outdoorsman, but I work outside pretty much as well 102 in August or 20 in dec. I'm out there in it.. I don't think I own a pair of jeans that doesn't have oil, paint, caulk, tar, solar seal or something on them. Messy is not really the issue, getting my hands dirty isn't really the issue.
STINKING lubes (like that funny smell bore butter has) and PLASTIC SQUEEZE TUBES in my leather possibles bag are my issues. And like Mark said I guess I could just use those prelubed patches (which work OK) but then I gotta PLASTIC ZIPLOC BAGGY in my possibles bag.
I don't mind having a patch material thats already lubed, but if it's floating loose in my bag?? It gets all over my primer flask (done clogged that nipple once) and makes a mess down inside my bag. I don;t want to have to fumble through lard and fat to find a roundball, a pouch, a primer flask, capper or anything like that. Don;t wanna grab the cord my vent pic is attached to and pull it out and it look like a lollipop with a lard ball on the end of it.
So if a messy lube is what I need to use?? I'll use that....... I just don't want it to stink sa bad in such an UNNATURAL scent. I've watched a deer walk straight up to a gut pile and job it's nose in the blood, so I know fats and such aint gonna bother em. But I've watched em turn wrong side out at the mere wiff a a new rubber boot as well. And if I need to use a messy lube?? No problem! But I'm making a seperate pouch specifically for patches and nothing else (And I aind seen no historical evidence of dedicated patch bags yet so I know there's another way.)
So I guess other than my original question which was does different lubes effect accuracy. I need to ask another one......... another two.
You hunt pretty cold climates. Do you use a different lube for warmer weather versus colder weather??
And while sitting there watching deer at 200yds this morning the light sort of went on as I peered at the stock on my flinter. well DUH!! Put the friggin lube/grease/whatever in the dadgum grease hole!! I'm going to try deer tallow for it as soon as season is over and I got range time to experiment.
Now that one I have figured. Carry a dry strip of patch material, and as soon as I figure out which recipe works best for me just fill the grease hole up in the stock.
Now on to my Plains rifle. You guys with patch boxes. do yall carry greased patches in them?? or dry ones?? Would or is this the best way of doing it?? Just stuff a strip of prelubed patch in the patch box? If so I think I'll order a patch box and put it on the rifle.
Post by: Mitch on December 16, 2009, 07:39:38 PM
Post by: IronDawg on December 16, 2009, 10:57:20 PM
Do you ever carry your lube for extra as well??
I may just try this AFTER deer season ( only thing I'm trying until then is to kill mor edeer
Post by: rollingb on December 17, 2009, 12:01:54 AM
Quote from: "IronDawg"
Mark,
Not taken snarky at all. But sorry bro ya aint gettin me to stop shootin these guns that easy (HA!!) it's not that I mind the mess (man you don't know what messy is!! lol). It's not only that I'm an outdoorsman, but I work outside pretty much as well 102 in August or 20 in dec. I'm out there in it.. I don't think I own a pair of jeans that doesn't have oil, paint, caulk, tar, solar seal or something on them. Messy is not really the issue, getting my hands dirty isn't really the issue.
STINKING lubes (like that funny smell bore butter has) and PLASTIC SQUEEZE TUBES in my leather possibles bag are my issues. And like Mark said I guess I could just use those prelubed patches (which work OK) but then I gotta PLASTIC ZIPLOC BAGGY in my possibles bag.
I don't mind having a patch material thats already lubed, but if it's floating loose in my bag?? It gets all over my primer flask (done clogged that nipple once) and makes a mess down inside my bag. I don;t want to have to fumble through lard and fat to find a roundball, a pouch, a primer flask, capper or anything like that. Don;t wanna grab the cord my vent pic is attached to and pull it out and it look like a lollipop with a lard ball on the end of it.
So if a messy lube is what I need to use?? I'll use that....... I just don't want it to stink sa bad in such an UNNATURAL scent. I've watched a deer walk straight up to a gut pile and job it's nose in the blood, so I know fats and such aint gonna bother em. But I've watched em turn wrong side out at the mere wiff a a new rubber boot as well. And if I need to use a messy lube?? No problem! But I'm making a seperate pouch specifically for patches and nothing else (And I aind seen no historical evidence of dedicated patch bags yet so I know there's another way.)
So I guess other than my original question which was does different lubes effect accuracy. I need to ask another one......... another two.
You hunt pretty cold climates. Do you use a different lube for warmer weather versus colder weather??
And while sitting there watching deer at 200yds this morning the light sort of went on as I peered at the stock on my flinter. well DUH!! Put the friggin lube/grease/whatever in the dadgum grease hole!! I'm going to try deer tallow for it as soon as season is over and I got range time to experiment.
Now that one I have figured. Carry a dry strip of patch material, and as soon as I figure out which recipe works best for me just fill the grease hole up in the stock.
Now on to my Plains rifle. You guys with patch boxes. do yall carry greased patches in them?? or dry ones?? Would or is this the best way of doing it?? Just stuff a strip of prelubed patch in the patch box? If so I think I'll order a patch box and put it on the rifle.
When I use "lubed" patchs,... I pre-cut the patchs, then lube them and put them in an "Altoid tin".
Whenever I need a patch, I simply pull the tin outta my bag, grab a lubed patch, then drop the tin back into my shooting back,... NO "fuss", NO "mess".
I do burn all the fancy writtin' off the tin and rub it down with some steel wool, in order to make it look nice and "old timey".
Post by: Captchee on December 17, 2009, 08:12:54 AM
i never did stitch patches together as i only used pre cut for maybe a year .
what i did was take a strip of ticking and cut it a little larger then the patch i wanted . then i folded that strip back and forth , also the width of the patch . . then cut around the stack so as that you leave just about 1/8 of the fold left on two sides of the stack of patches . this leaves the patches connected by an 1/8 inch area . If you want more the 4 or 5 , then just fold 4 or 5 at a time . Cut them out , then refold another 4 or 5 along the same strip . You can continue and have all the patches connected , even if you want 100 on a strip .
To load , simply place the patch on the muzzle , just as you would if you were cutting patches at the muzzle start the ball , then grab the next patch in line and give a yank . the patch will disconnect from the one you just loaded .
No fumbling around with opening a tin , no trying to separated just one patch so you don’t accidentally double patch .
To lube them , just heat up you chosen mix to a liquid state . Once there ., just soak your patches in it and squeegee out the excess that doesn’t absorb into the patch .
Another miss conception IMO is that a lube must be sticky and goopy to work I don’t believe this is the case. its also where a lot of new folks trying to use spit patches for the first time go wrong and then get the idea that spit will foul a charge .
Simply put , you don’t need a lot just enough to dampen the patch , be it lubed or spit .
If any of you were to see me at a shoot , I will have a long strip of ticking tied off to my rifle bag strap . But when hunting I only have a piece about 12 inches long . Enough for approx 10 ball .
I always carry a minimum of 10 balls no mater if im planning on just a day hunt
As to how fast one can load ? Again I would agree with Rolling .
But you have to be organized . Be able to reach into your bag , while locked on your target and instantly grab what your wanting .
Shooting event wise , im not very good at the speed events . Best I ever did was 8 shoots on target at 25 , in 2 minutes . But that was only loading a Patch on the first shot and spitting balls after that .
It wasn’t even good enough to place in the top 5 .
Hunting wise though is much , Much different .
When I first started our I did a lot of reading. One of the reads was on British loading standards . As I recall it listed 4 shots shouldered and fired in under a minute .
I worked like a beaver all summer trying to get to that . Never did . But I did get 3 loaded and off . OHHH I was all set . . Opening morning I dropped a big muley doe in the snow . She flat dropped like a car had hit here . I started to reload . Im locked on her boy I tell you what .. I was big time now .!!!
When I walked up to her she was done . Was a wonderful shot ..
that’s when I hear my dad laughing . I thought he was going to literally fall down .
He would slow down look up , wipe the tears and go right back at it
Finally he says , you know you might want to unload that rifle . And then starts in laughing again . So im thinking ??????/
I picked it up pointed it at a big pine . She went pop and the ball shot out maybe 15ft .
Seems all my practice was wasted . The blood was pumping so hard I had dumped most of my load of powder all around the muzzle and onto the snow. When I had thought I was putting items back in my rifle bag , I was missing the bag and thus had a nice trail of coderments which my dad was picking up behind me .
So today I tell folks . Make that first shot count . Then reload like the Calvary is on your tail , but don’t go so fast that you brain shifts to neutral, but forgets to tell your hands .
Take enough time to load properly . Never EVER walk up on a downed animal with an empty gun . Even if you think its all over especially not one with horns .
I cant say about white tail , but have seen mule deer , elk and moose males and females use their last spark to get up and try there very best to stomp a mud hole in you .
Post by: mark davidson on December 17, 2009, 09:47:01 AM
Post by: Mitch on December 17, 2009, 11:21:31 AM
Post by: Fletcher on December 17, 2009, 12:04:38 PM
Anyway, I think the experts have made the good points and all I want to add is that his would be a great topic for the Journal so it could be available to viewers new and old.
It may be a good time for a mutilple input article, since there are so many ways to do a good patch lube and so many 'old timers' set in their ways as how to do it.
Post by: Mitch on December 17, 2009, 01:35:53 PM
Post by: R.M. on December 17, 2009, 01:41:35 PM
Post by: mark davidson on December 18, 2009, 09:40:19 AM
Post by: mark davidson on December 18, 2009, 09:45:17 AM
Post by: Uncle Russ on December 18, 2009, 11:02:08 AM
Quote
I am well known to be a fairly newcomer.....
Mark, with all due respect, this dog will no longer hunt.
You have been a guest here for two years, so you are are no longer seen as just a newbie. If your curiosity drives you to ask a question, just ask it. No harm, no foul.
If it is the Holy Grail in Muzzleloading that you are looking for, it is going to require a lot of personal experimenting along with the acceptance of some of what you read on any open forum.
Once again, Whats good for the Goose is not always good for the Gander.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Mitch on December 18, 2009, 11:57:42 AM
Post by: Chairslayer on December 18, 2009, 12:08:06 PM
Just recently I was shooting my .54 virginia and I was lubing with spit as I usually do. My accuracy was off so I picked up a patch and found that I was cutting a hole in one corner of the patch, creating blow-by. I changed to my hunting lube of beeswax, deer tallow, and olive oil (extra virgin, but don't tell SWMBO I used her good stuff) and the patches were just fine. I'm using home cast .525 with pillow tick patching about .018 thickness. I do have some .530 balls and the next thing is to try the bigger balls with the spit and see what happens.