Traditional Muzzleloading Association

Shooting Traditional Firearms and Weapons => General Interest => Topic started by: jim m on December 15, 2009, 12:28:30 PM

Title: the sprue on cast balls
Post by: jim m on December 15, 2009, 12:28:30 PM

don't want to start a war, but what is your opinion. sprue up or down when loading. I am not a great shot [ a 2-3 inch group at 50yds off the bench is a good group] and I have tried it both ways, even loaded it sideways, and I can't tell any difference in groups. I have a freind that use to shoot some serious competion and to him if the sprue aint up the the sun will fall from the sky LOL,

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Post by: BEAVERMAN on December 15, 2009, 12:50:57 PM

Jim, I cast my own ball and when I'm done, they go in a rock polisher, no medium, just the balls working against each other and when they come out they look like factory swagged ball, now that being said, before I started doing this, I, like you tried it every which way from Sunday and never noticed a difference, and that was shooting from the bench.

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Post by: mark davidson on December 15, 2009, 12:52:30 PM

I'm new but was "guided" toward sprue up. I like it that way cause it gives me a nice flat spot to put my starter on before I whack it. :-)

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Post by: Sir Michael on December 15, 2009, 01:47:01 PM

A lot of folks and WEB sights state that the proper way to load is sprue up.  Personally I go with sprue down.  I have come to this from two sources.  First, I came to this same conclusion on my own when I first started shooting muzzleloaders based on my education and experience in fluid dynamics.  Second, the man who designed my rifle in 1822 stated in a book he wrote about rifles that balls fly truer (are more accurate) if loaded with the cast (sprue) down because that way they present to the air as the fly a smooth uniform surface rather than a rough irregular surface.

BTW, I like Jim run my balls through a tumbler to eliminate the issue.  Besides, after tumbling them those with voids under the sprue are easily identified and can be removed for recasting resulting in the balls being shot being more uniform in weight.

You also brought up another issue, "whacking" the short starter.  Some load so hard and tight that they deform their balls from spherical to cylindrical.  My own experience is that a ball should fit tightly in the barrel but not so tight that it has to be beaten down the barrel with a hammer.  But, tight enough to require several good thumps with a ram rod to get it down the barrel and seat it.  If it doesn't travel smoothly down the barrel you need to try another patch lube that doesn't foul the barrel.  You shouldn't have to clean the barrel when shooting regardless of how many shots you take unless you "just want to".

But, the most important issue regarding loading sprue up or down or any other aspect of loading is what works best for you.

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Post by: biliff on December 15, 2009, 02:20:45 PM

Sprues are like toilet paper, up or down, depends on how your mama taught you to do it.

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Post by: R.M. on December 16, 2009, 12:06:25 AM

I put the sprue up, because I can see where it is, if I put it down, I have no idea where it's at.

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Post by: Three Hawks on December 16, 2009, 01:33:41 AM

I load the ball into the muzzle.  Where the sprue goes is up to it.  I've developed this attitude because I seem to miss as regularly sprue up or sprue down so it makes precious little difference.   I notice no difference whatsoever using apparently perfect cast balls, swaged balls, or cast balls with obvious imperfections.  Just to make trouble in the argument, balls cast in Lee molds have no sprues, just little tangential flats.  

And there you have it.  Details at eleven.

Three Hawks

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Post by: Fletcher on December 17, 2009, 12:25:29 PM

What RM says - but if you have the time and tools, I agree with the Beaver.

I uses a couple slabs of Formica with an edge of weatherproofing strip on the bottom to keep the balls from rolling away.  The bottom plate is about 18" x 18" and the top about 8" x 8"

I roll about 25 balls at a time for about 50 -60 seconds and this appears to roll out the sprue mark and the cast marks without taking the balls out of round.

I think I shoot better with these than will commerical swaged balls or cast balls that have not been treated.

At least I have convinced myself of this since I am so proud of my little invention.

And just ask Beav of Puffer - I am such a good shot ya just gotta believe what I tell ya.  

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Post by: vermontfreedom on December 17, 2009, 09:39:29 PM

somewhere in one of my books - maybe kindig or shumway, or maybe someone else entirely, I forget - I read of some really extensive tests done in the latter half of the 20th century loading sprue up, down, and sideways and no discernable difference was noted.

that said, even though i know it probably makes far less difference than rifle operator error, i load sprue up just so i can see it, but i admit it's pretty often cocked a few degrees to the side

i cast my own and did a bunch of my own testing just comparing up vs down and could find no difference

i also used to use a rock tumbler with no medium to tumble my balls until the sprue disappeared and that remained was a small raised spot with a little dimple. IMPORTANT: I actually found these to be about 0.001 inch larger than untumbled balls and--believe it or not--I could feel the difference when loading - they just loaded tighter. because the tumbled balls were no more accurate or precise than untumbled, and because it took another 4-8 hours to tumble them smooth, and because they loaded tighter, I stopped tumbling and I still kill plenty of deer.

at recommendations of others here, i was tumbling to identify voids in my cast balls. i never found one because you as the caster just 'know' when a cast isn't right - too little lead, too slow pour, or whatever, and that ball goes back in the pot before ever getting a chance to cool.

go with whatever works for you!

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Post by: madcaster on December 21, 2009, 07:25:14 PM

One good option is to get a 2 litre drink bottle and put the round balls in it.Now,lay it in the bed of your pick'm up truck and as you drive over the next week or so,IF you do not habve any snow in the bed it will roll around and kinda polish the nubs down.
 No charge for the HillBilly method top secret of polishing lead for flintlocks!
 Really,it does work...

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Post by: jim m on December 21, 2009, 10:13:30 PM

Quote from: "madcaster"

One good option is to get a 2 litre drink bottle and put the round balls in it.Now,lay it in the bed of your pick'm up truck and as you drive over the next week or so,IF you do not habve any snow in the bed it will roll around and kinda polish the nubs down.
 No charge for the HillBilly method top secret of polishing lead for flintlocks!
 Really,it does work...

this hillbilly likes this idea

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Post by: Three Hawks on December 22, 2009, 05:40:49 AM

Sounds good.  But with my luck the cap would unscrew itself and I'd have a liter and a half of .490 roundballs scattered all over the Greater Seattle Area.

Three Hawks

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Post by: Loyalist Dave on December 22, 2009, 07:39:58 AM

I once had a ball turn as it was loaded into a smoothie and the sprue jammed the dang thing, so If I have a sprue I load it up.

BUT, I recently read, and now can't find the ref, that the sprue should always go down as the bullet from a rifled gun when it spins will stabilize better with the sprue down.., just as a top wobbles slightly when launched, but settles into a much tighter spin a moment after it begins?  I do remember that the source was pretty old.

So as it was an old source, I don't know if Vermontfreedom's source debunks that idea, or if in the 20th century they had a less pronounced sprue, or other factors.

What about the folks who use a knife to really trim off the sprue from the ball and make it look really round?  GEESH too many variables!!  

LD