Post by: boltgun71 on June 28, 2010, 02:44:14 PM
What kind of shot patterns can I expect out of a basic 20 gauge 38-42" barrel? I ask this because as I stated I fully intend to use it for turkey hunting and want to know what I can expect from it. No type of choked barrel would be PC that I have found. I looked at Colerain's turkey barrel but dont want to lose the PC'ness as I beleive would happen. I have read about "jug" choking but still dont really understand that. Am I worrying to much about choke and simply underestimating the ability of a smoothbore? Is their a PC choked barrel?
I'm trying to decide on a buttstock configuration but having a hard time finding pictures to compare the different styles. I do have a few books on this but was wondering if anyone has any websites or pictures of their own that I could check as well. What is comfortable for a good pointing fowler in your expert opinions?
A round faced lock would be more appropriate then a flat faced style lock on a fowler built prior to the mid 1780's correct?
That should be good for now. Thanks for any help and information in advance. I love this forum for its wealth of information.
Post by: Riley/MN on June 28, 2010, 05:10:55 PM
Just make sure the 20 ga smoothbore muzzleloader is legal for turkeys where you hunt (it is not in MN)
Post by: Shawnee Mike on June 29, 2010, 02:00:28 AM
Post by: Captchee on June 29, 2010, 09:10:13 AM
IMO there is no need for a choke unless your going to be shooting well past 30 yards
See with a muzzleloader you have the ability to fully regulate your load . Where with shells you cant
Some time ago I had a 20 gage English fowler that I did some serious working loads for and was able to get a 30 inch pattern at 30 yards .
I followed the same princaple with my SXS and get very close to the same range .
Im just not a big believer in chokes .
Now that being said if you decide you want a choked bore sometime down the road . Have it jug choked . Jugging will not change the profile of you piece at all .
As to photos . Man wouldn’t that be a web site
I don’t know of one that has a recorded full line of different fowlers . But if you do a google photo search for; Flintlock fowlers you will have enough web sites to keep you busy for a very , Very long time .
Also I would highly recommend the book ; Flintlock fowlers
As to what I myself like . Through the years I have had many smoothbores ranging from simple Trade guns and hunters like the Fusil De Chase and English fowlers .
But I love my SXS the most . I have also always wanted an Early Hudson Valley Fowler . A couple years back I got to hold one. Up untell then I figured that the lines of the stock with that early dutch goose neck , had to be cumbersome to shot .
I found it not to be so . Infact past my SXS I have never had a piece that came up so well .
So in this economic down turn , I now have the time to build me a HV that I want . HC bedamed as it will probably be one of the last smoothies I own .
She has a 52 inch barrel a small bore “28 gage “ and im forging all the hardware from demascus .
why becouse i want it that way . as i said PC/HC be dammed
Post by: Loyalist Dave on June 29, 2010, 09:42:17 AM
LD
Post by: Captchee on June 29, 2010, 09:46:17 AM
Quote from: "Loyalist Dave"
Sorry, but Jug Choking is 19th Century, post Civil War. At least according to several websites..., so could be inaccurate..., either a guy named Kimble did it in America in 1868, or a guy named Pape did it in England in 1866.
LD
and how is one going to know dave ?
you cant see it
also as to the HC of the issue . if you look back you will find the spanish doing chokes even in the lat 17th century . this includes a type of screw in fixture .
as to bore modifications . Greener in his book ;The gun and its development .
mentions alot of these range clear back to the early 18th century .
here is one such account .
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/documentation/Greenerchokes002.jpg)
there are even earlier accounts then this .
here is a link to a discussion we had on the subject over on the double gun Journal some time ago . well worth reading . lots of sound information
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=121752&page=1&PHPSESSID=9d5ee32e25e7aa855229b3f069eaf438
myself i cannot see how this person could in anyway be effected by a PC standard unless he tell someone
Post by: tg on June 29, 2010, 07:15:44 PM
Post by: Captchee on June 29, 2010, 07:48:28 PM
you know what , forget it
in done .
Post by: sse on June 29, 2010, 08:32:08 PM
Quote
Having a lack of respect for the HC/PC factor is fine but do not push the disrespectfull mindset on others who may be to learn the difference.I cannot believe I heard that on the " Traditional" ML forumI don't think there is a lack of respect for anything here, but I think whatever your opinion it would be a good idea to be respectful of others at all times.
Post by: tg on June 29, 2010, 08:56:43 PM
I think you might want to re-read the posts on this thread and the attitude towards PC/HC
if it reflects the general mindset about the historic value held here, then there is a respect issue, but I am of a like mind with cap on one thing, i'm done, wanna be traditional forums have been a dime a dozen in cyberspace for years and it only takes a bit more deication and commitment to really be there, anyway, do enjoy your journey gentlemen, I hope you find and embrace the traditional path one day, good bye.
Post by: sse on June 29, 2010, 09:09:33 PM
Quote
do enjoy your journey gentlemen, I hope you find and embrace the traditional path one day, good bye.Much better. Now that wasn't so hard.
Post by: mario on July 27, 2010, 06:19:52 PM
Quote from: "boltgun71"
I'm trying to decide on a buttstock configuration but having a hard time finding pictures to compare the different styles. I do have a few books on this but was wondering if anyone has any websites or pictures of their own that I could check as well. What is comfortable for a good pointing fowler in your expert opinions?
Depends on your tastes and what person you are in that 1770-1780s timeframe.
If you are a New England farmer a "Frenchier" stock would be good. If you are a merchant in Charleston, SC, an English style would be more appropriate.
I use both English and French guns and like them both.
Quote from: "boltgun71"
A round faced lock would be more appropriate then a flat faced style lock on a fowler built prior to the mid 1780's correct?
Generally, yes. But all depends on person, place, time.
Mario
Post by: pathfinder on July 27, 2010, 11:53:00 PM
Post by: Capt. Jas. on July 28, 2010, 06:10:21 AM
Bolt, a jug choke is not correct for your time frame but it will be completely unseen and unknown to anyone except those who run a scour down your barrel. Most likely that will always be you.
A period fowling piece that would have been used by fowlers would many times have the bore relieved in a cone from the muzzle down in about 1.5 inches. This was sometimes accompanied by either a roughened breech area or a breech area relieved as the muzzle was. This is not a choke as we know it but was the accepted forerunner of the day. Officer's fuzees which looked like fowling pieces were straight cylinder bored for shooting a wadded round ball like a musket.
I agree with Charles that within skeet ranges, you will do fine with the cyl. bore.
If you want to PM me with your personna (who, what , when, where, etc.) I can help you some there as I have collected a database of fowling pieces over the years.
James
Post by: Swamp on July 28, 2010, 06:58:31 AM
Integrity = Is having values, being consistent with one's values or belief system, not wavering due to outside influences, standing strong in how one should live and believe.
ANSWER
ALWAYS DOING THE RIGHT THING EVEN WHEN YOU KNOW NO ONE ELSE IS LOOKING.
Boltgun, I shoot a Tulle (Fusil De Chase), and it patterns good out to about 30 yds. It kills game plain and simple.
Now, with that being said, I want to add this. I tend to see a lot of folks trying to get performace out of traditional ML's like they do with modern firearms. It won't happen. Can you get good performance out of traditional guns, YES! But to many hunters these days put all their emphasis on killing game, and forget all about the hunt itself. For me, that's what traditional ML'ing has brought back, "THE HUNT"! I don't worry about "The turkey at 40yds" anymore! I think about "How can I close the distance to TRY to harvest the animal I'm after" and, how nice it was to sit in the woods and listen to the birds sing, squirrels chatter, geese overhead on their migration south, you name it. If everyone would just stop thinking about how I'm going to fill my tags or game bag, and focus on the hunt itself, they will have a more enjoyable hunt, and not coming home saying "I didn't see anything today", or "a hunter walked by me today and ruined my hunt".
Do you see what I'm trying to say? I could go on and on about this. But maybe I answered your question as to if you are worrying to much about a choked barrel.
Hope this helps. Please let us know how you make out.
Post by: Longhunter on July 28, 2010, 08:51:03 AM
Part of that challenge is experimenting with different loads in your smoothbore to determine what is the most efficient load for your particular gun. You don't NEED to have a killing pattern at 40yds. If you're not a good enough hunter to get that bird in to 30yds then you'd be better off to hunt with a modern gun.
I look at my smoothbores as guns for all types of hunting. That means they must not only pattern shot well but they must also shoot a patched roundball well. I think the chances of a gun performing as such are better with a barrel that isn't choked. JMHO.
Post by: Captchee on July 28, 2010, 09:16:32 AM
When I said PC be dammed . I meant concerning the hardware on my HV fowler .
On the piece im using as reverence , the hardware is brass . I want Damascus.
Which by the way is period correct and documented to be used on higher end European pieces , To include the locks .
but NOT on the HV that im awear of
the simple fact is that there "were" many different types of way to improve performance of muzzle loading piece .
rifling was a way to gain more accuracy. In fact that’s the very reason for the different types of rifling
Take this topic at hand . There were many different way to do what we call choking .
some work , some do not .
Now that that being said . I am not saying that one would find such things on a cheaply made NW gun . However we know they existed and were done on fowling pieces .
Here is the problem .
All to often , what is and is not considered Period or historically correct , is all to often not defined by actual documentation . Instead its defined by a set of misguided opinions.
Thus a whole lot of folks follow like a given OPPENION , like lemmings over a cliff .
I would point folks to some other issues that are also very common
* No rear sights on smooth bores
* 1 in 70 being the only twist rate found on rifles
* NO of breech loaders
* opinions concerning early cartridge rifles pre 1850
* colt being the father of the revolver
* flintlocks being slow and un reliable
* smooth bores having poor accuracy
.
* every mountain man in the western fur trade carried . A rifle . Not any rifle it must be a Hawken rifle
* for that mater what is and what is not a Hawken
The list can go on and on . all are thing that contiunue to be propetuated as facts
So lets talk a minute about swamps writing concerning integrity.
How many times on this or other boards do we see people with rifles that are supposed to be early . Yet they carry strait barrels ?
You all do understand that for a pre 1800 gun , that is not period correct .
How many times do we accept the TC and Lyman rifles with coil spring locks .
While coil springs were used to fire a very small number early lock designs . They were to my knowledge not used in locks found in this country .
For that mater how many folks are walking around with siler locks on rifles that should not have that design of lock ?
How about the mounting and use of Iron hardware ? . Now there is a discrepancy for you to speak about , if ever there was one .
Integrity is about standing by ones beliefs . Regardless of what the mass , popular opinion is .
Its about not going with the flow and repeating opinions . Just because it’s felt to be the popular opinion.
This organization was founded on getting people true information .
Hopefully as factual as we can . If we don’t have that information we WILL do everything we can to point people in the direction where they can find it .
This person asked about a choked bore for hunting . Yet wanted something that would pass muster at a re-enactment .
Having a jug choked gun is NOT going to effect its ability to fit into a situation that is based on documented looks .
It will NOT give him any edge over someone with a cylinder bore at such events. Un less that event includes live shooting of shot .
Simply put , it will not make his piece any more effective at shooting a blank load then anyone else shooting a blank load
In fact I submit this to you . I seriously doubt that a person that has not taken the time to work up a proper hunting load for their fowler . Will find that having a jug choke gives them any real benefit over someone who has taken the time to work up a proper regulated load for their cylinder bore .
To back that opinion ill point folks back to what I and a couple others first experienced here on this forum many , many years ago when we first started posting about patterns of 30 inches or less at ranges of 30 yards . There were pages upon pages concerning this on the old forum . Yet still today many folks simply believe that those types of patterns are impossible to achieve through a cylinder bore .
Now if someone wants to stay 100% period correct .Then I would suggest seriously researching what was done for their given piece . NOT simply what was done , somewhere at some time , on some other gun .
Don’t fall for following a popular opinion unless you yourself can support that opinion with documentation . For if you do . Your libel to run into a case where you will be proven to be miss guided in your base of reasoning .
IMO Greener did a very good job of suporting his writings with the documentatin he had at that time . Read it , understand it and build your base of information from there
Post by: Swamp on July 28, 2010, 09:22:05 AM
Good luck to you, and PLEASE keep us informed as to your progress, as well as share your hunts with us. We love to talk about that!
Post by: Swamp on July 28, 2010, 11:01:30 AM
I typed out our motto, as this is how I look at it.
Integrity = Is having values (The TMA values which we all believe in and follow to the best of our knowledge) , being consistent with one's values or belief system (again, the members being consistant to our traditional roots and beliefs), not wavering due to outside influences (not letting the modern crowd influence our values or beliefs as a group), standing strong in how one should live and believe (Standing strong for our values and beliefs as a traditional group and way of life).
Post by: pathfinder on July 28, 2010, 11:09:26 AM
Post by: Longhunter on July 28, 2010, 11:29:33 AM
Post by: Swamp on July 28, 2010, 01:05:32 PM
Then came some friends and I, putting together a small traditional group, and jumping in with both feet, and never looking back. Hunting took on a whole new perspective, and appreciation, and it's never, and I mean NEVER been so good! We do the rendezvous' and such and have a great time, but there's nothing like a traditional hunt/camp, like we had last Sept, the Tree Rat Rendezvous! There, you are really living the 18th century lifestyle. It's the best, and when you can share it with family and friends who are like minded, your in for the time of your life!
Boltgun, I hope your reading and taking in what we're saying here. The traditional hunter gets so much more out of it!
Post by: pathfinder on July 28, 2010, 01:40:05 PM
Ron,spot on with the response from Capchee.
Boltgun,do the best you can and put forth an honest effort,NO ONE will give you grief. Seems all this P/C-H/C stuff is more important here in cyberspace than the real world. I have a hodgepodge of stuff I've made,acquired,bought,traded over the years and not once..EVER,did anyone say anything about my gear. I've done everything from strict juried events,to city park show and tell's for over 30 years and have had the time of my life. People have giant BA--S here on the computer. Enjoy this silly game I still call "Buckskinning"
Post by: Captchee on July 28, 2010, 02:12:42 PM
and ron . your right , clear as mud . history is clear as mud .
on one had we proclaim what is PC . what our forfathers did . what their weapons were
but what is the base for that ?
is it factual documentation or is it opinion?
On one had we have those who proclaim any type of improvement is not PC ???
Yet in fact the history of firearms development is based on one improvement after another
What we call today chokes are nothing more then improved bores . Historically there are many different applications to do just that .
Thus proclaiming that having an improved bore is not PC , why ?
Well IMO the point of view is based on the same thing as the opinions I posted . IE not factual information but roomer and opinion based on others opinions , not documentation
Myself I have no issues with my cylinder bore’s . they do everything I want them to do . I don’t see a need for a choke .
But to turn around and imply that someone who wants some type of choke “ Improved cylinder “ is somehow not being faithful .
Come on .
Have you ever heard of Stanislaus Placzelt ?
Mussee D Armes Liege
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/SXS/earlypolychoke.jpg)
There is just so much of what we consider to be modern . That in fact is not . What happened was someone came along and re invented the wheel . we then turn around and assume it to be modern base on the date of re invention
Do we not owe these people asking questions to be as factual as we can ?
i think we do . regardless of what our opinions are .
So while you , I and swamp , as well as probably many others here , may agree that there is no better day spent hunting , then one setting under a tree , enjoying the woods or facilitating a difficult stalk on an animal .
all the while placing filling a tag as being way down the chain of priorities .
The basic facts are . that’s not what ask about here .
What was ask is if this person can have some kind of choke on his smoothbore and still have it pass muster at an re-enactment . The answer should have been YES .
But instead we have driven off into what is and is not historically correct .
What our personal opinions of hunting are.
Post by: Swamp on July 28, 2010, 03:02:08 PM
I'm so tired lately that you may have not and I just didn't see it that way. So forgive me!That is why I hate the forums sometimes, as something can be taken the wrong way when it was never meant to be that way in the first place! You can't hear the tone of ones voice when typing, and others type differently than you and I, and then it ends up looking like we're bickering back and forth! I hate that.
Ahh, well, I hope all is well. Le's get them hunt camps together this fall, and let's hear some good story telling!
Post by: Captchee on July 28, 2010, 04:58:36 PM
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on July 28, 2010, 07:48:30 PM