Traditional Muzzleloading Association

Shooting Traditional Firearms and Weapons => General Interest => Topic started by: 45.70 on September 23, 2010, 09:30:49 PM

Title: english or irish shot snake
Post by: 45.70 on September 23, 2010, 09:30:49 PM

Hello all,

Im new to the muzzleloading shotguns and was curious about shot snakes.  I've been loading with my powder measure till now and have been thinking about getting a shot snake.  I was interested in some of your opions on the english and irish shot snakes.  Pro's and con's of each, I've never used either so any input is welcome.  Thanks, Garry

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Post by: Bigsmoke on September 23, 2010, 09:39:03 PM

English - one hand operation, handy.  However it is tough to see exactly how much shot is in the measure.
Irish - takes two hands, one to hold the snake body, one to withdraw the measure.  Easy to see how much shot is in it.  Measure is prone to loss if not on a lanyard.
Personally, I prefer the Irish
Hope this helps.
John

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Post by: AZ Longrifle on September 23, 2010, 10:40:50 PM

I use the Irish model too.
It's a little slower, but I'm used to working with it and I get 3 measurements with it.

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Post by: No Rod on September 23, 2010, 11:32:27 PM

Irish model here too. I have been able to use it one handed all along... guess I didn't know i was doing it wrong! lol! Just poken a little fun Smoke.

Jon

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Post by: mark davidson on September 24, 2010, 09:58:45 AM

Either one is bound to be better than the plastic coke bottle that I am using! :-)

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Post by: Kermit on September 24, 2010, 11:02:35 AM

Another consideration is that the English has to be positioned over the muzzle to dump the shot down bore. The Irish scoop lets you move just the scoop over the muzzle.

I use the Irish. English might be useful with shorter barrels, but my smoothies have 44" and 46" barrels.

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Post by: Capt. Jas. on September 24, 2010, 12:45:19 PM

They both can be like carrying a reloading machine around on your shoulders if using a shot belt.
If convenience is a factor then these should not be ruled out. I have also seen some modern forms of these as well. A pocketful of shot/powder chargers and a hank of tow/tin of wads makes for a nice day afield.

(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj136/fowling_gun/Untitled2.jpg)

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Post by: Riley/MN on September 24, 2010, 01:13:41 PM

James, you teased us with that picture before.... Are these items you have? Do you make them? Do you know where we can get them????

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Post by: Capt. Jas. on September 24, 2010, 02:17:12 PM

Not a tease, more like a dream. I am going to make some of these but have not had the time to make anything for myself as of late.
They were also made in straight cylinder form as well.
I have used this method with adopted modern materials and find it very convenient. Very much akin to taking a pocket full of modern shells on a day hunt.
I believe Cabin Creek used to sell some but i cannot get their website to come up anymore.
I have documentation of them being ordered in America from England pre-rev.
I also believe these are partly the reason you do not see as many flasks and other paraphenalia in old sporting paintings as you would think to see.

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Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on September 25, 2010, 02:24:46 AM

I built a shot "horn" that works realywell. When you use it for a while  , it becomes a 1 handed operation .  Dosn't hold the volume of a snake , but it holds enough for small game hunting .

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Post by: 45.70 on September 25, 2010, 04:14:19 PM

Thanks for all the replies,  I'm looking at some dove hunting next year.  I've been using my powder charger to measure my shot, but it's alittle slow on a good hunt.  I was thinking a shot snake would be alittle faster.  Seems alot of you guy's like the Irish and Capt Jas I've never seen anything like the picture you showed us.  Remind's me of a modern speed loader.  I wasn't aware they made such things back then. " learned something today"  Think I'll get a Irish shot snake and look into some of those tubes also.

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Post by: Capt. Jas. on September 25, 2010, 06:06:07 PM

Forgot to say that of the two heads I would choose the "Irish".  Who came up with those terms?

Riley/MN,  I guess this would be the "tease"  
(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj136/fowling_gun/shotandpowderchargers.jpg)

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Post by: Riley/MN on September 25, 2010, 10:12:49 PM

Wow, I guess!

I know if I saw one of them buggers I'd be able to make something similar....

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Post by: Kermit on September 25, 2010, 10:55:32 PM

Okay. I'm stupid. I fail to understand the "mechanism." How do them there little lid thingies work?

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Post by: 45.70 on September 26, 2010, 09:34:14 AM

I'm curious how those little things work as well.  Do you tap over one end and fill a charge, wad, and shot.  This might just be the cat's meow for a dove hunt.

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Post by: Capt. Jas. on September 26, 2010, 09:37:00 AM

Kermit
There is a piece of spring steel that runs up the side of the charger that holds both lids down until they are pushed up with a thumb.
The device has a divider in the middle to separate the powder from the shot.
If any of you guys can produce some of these to a satisfactory level of period correctness, I can help you get a bunch sold. I just have not had the time.  Here is another pic. I have more showing the spring on the side, etc. if anyone wants to send me their email, I can send them. Takes too long for me to load all of them to photobucket.

James

(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj136/fowling_gun/Untitled122.jpg)

Title: Re: english or irish shot snake
Post by: Birdwatcher on September 12, 2011, 04:49:05 PM

I briefly owned an "English" shot flask with spout.

Pressing with your thumb opened a sliding door and shot ran into the measured spout to another sliding door at the end.  Let up your thumb and the original door at the base of the spout closed while the one at the end opened, allowing the measured shot in the spout to pour out.

I did not like it because the design called for pouring the shot directly into the barrel while reloading.  Gave me a case of the willies, it felt too much like pouring powder from a flask directly down the barrel.  And surer than heck ol' going-senile me would have done that very thing while not paying attention.

YMMV

Birdwatcher

Title: Re: english or irish shot snake
Post by: Capt. Jas. on September 13, 2011, 07:40:06 AM

Jon Laubach of Williamsburg Forge is now importing some of the pocket shot chargers from India. They are made very well but are twice the thickness of originals and of course are buffed to heck and need to be "de-polished". I believe he gets 38.00 each for them and they are tapered as those in the first photo I posted which seems to be an early styling.

Williamsburg Forge
Jon Laubach
Barnhamsville, VA
757-566-0338

Title: Re: english or irish shot snake
Post by: Riley/MN on September 13, 2011, 12:27:51 PM

Salivating.... but wow, $38!

Title: Re: english or irish shot snake
Post by: Capt. Jas. on September 14, 2011, 11:37:22 AM

Mike Lea used to hand make them for about 95.00 each!!
More work than one might think to make them.
A cheaper way out if just after function without any historicity would be to take a section of copper pipe, with a divider in the middle and cork each end.
OR... duct tape two film canisters bottom to bottom.

Title: Re: english or irish shot snake
Post by: Riley/MN on September 14, 2011, 12:04:39 PM

I have some clear plastic vials - they work for the function, but the cool factor (& historical factor) is not there!

Title: Re: english or irish shot snake
Post by: Feltwad on September 14, 2011, 12:17:37 PM

Everybody to his own but for me it is the English shot flask ,it is quick  and for a driven day the double  spout shot belt which can load two barrels at the same time.
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door

Title: Re: english or irish shot snake
Post by: Feltwad on September 15, 2011, 05:01:07 PM

Enclosed are a couple of images of different types of both original English and Irish shot flask and shot belts.
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
Sorry but it will not allow more attachments to this topic

Title: Re: english or irish shot snake
Post by: Riley/MN on September 15, 2011, 09:32:23 PM

Ah, finally - Here are feltwad's pictures:
[attachment=0:2z4kxb09][/attachment]P1010005.JPG[/attachment:2z4kxb09]
[attachment=1:2z4kxb09][/attachment]P1010001.JPG[/attachment:2z4kxb09]

Title: Re: english or irish shot snake
Post by: Feltwad on September 16, 2011, 01:45:58 AM

Riley.
Thank you for posting the images I think they should be of interest to this topic
Feltwad

Title: Re: english or irish shot snake
Post by: Capt. Jas. on September 17, 2011, 12:37:00 PM

Feltwad,

What period in history have you found that the "Irish" and "English" designations took hold?

Title: Re: english or irish shot snake
Post by: Feltwad on September 17, 2011, 02:21:17 PM

Quote from: "Capt. Jas."

Feltwad,

What period in history have you found that the "Irish" and "English" designations took hold?

The powder and shot flask has we know  today took hold from 1780 onwards  the period of John and Joseph Manton .One of the early makers of flasks was Frith ,later firms such has Dixon ,Bartram and others followed in the early 1800,s.
Sheffield was the main town for the production of powder and shot flasks most powder flasks were made of copper in different designs and sizes,also tin and pewter,some of those made of tin were covered with Morrocan leather .
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door

Title: Re: english or irish shot snake
Post by: Capt. Jas. on September 18, 2011, 09:52:41 AM

That is what I have found to be true as well.
The double gate type of "English" style goes way back to French design and I believe a Frenchman obtained an English patent on a design as that after coming to England.
I believe the "Irish" and "English" designations to be modern.

Title: Re: english or irish shot snake
Post by: No Rod on October 13, 2011, 09:55:57 PM

great pics Feltwad, thanks