Traditional Muzzleloading Association

Shooting Traditional Firearms and Weapons => General Interest => Topic started by: jtwodogs on October 26, 2010, 11:11:09 AM

Title: 4f or 3f for priming powder?
Post by: jtwodogs on October 26, 2010, 11:11:09 AM: 4f or 3f for priming powder?
thanks
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Post by: Gambia on October 26, 2010, 11:58:08 AM: I know this will sound stupid, But for the last 2 years I have been using 2FFG yep, thats what I said 2-FFG I can see no difference while shooting woods walks, seems as fast as the 4FFFFG I used to use and I can load and prime from the same horn.... But thats just me.
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Post by: Kermit on October 26, 2010, 12:20:54 PM: 4f, because I have yet to use up the can I bought a long time ago. When it's gone, I plan to use what's in the horn--either 3f or 2f--and see how that works.
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Post by: woodman on October 26, 2010, 12:42:23 PM: I use what I have in the horn 2f or 3f . Can't tell any difference myslf.
Woodman
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Post by: Uncle Russ on October 26, 2010, 01:17:07 PM: Quote from: "Kermit"
4f, because I have yet to use up the can I bought a long time ago. When it's gone, I plan to use what's in the horn--either 3f or 2f--and see how that works.

Same story here...4Fg is definitely the Bryle Cream of gun powder.... "A little dab goes a long long way".

It takes forever to use a pound of 4Fg and a couple of years back I ended up with five pounds. Traded some off for2F & 3F, Loaned one, which is to be repaid in 3F, I have just about used one up and it looks like I still have a full pound left....so I'm in really good shape for prime.

I have often primed straight from the horn, which contributes greatly to the extended life of my 4F priming powder, and has pretty much convinced me that 3Fg does just about as good a job a 4F...I don't think it's better, but it certainly does the job just about as well.

With me, the good thing is I can get rid of the 4F Primer charger.....
which seems to have no real good place to be when I'm shooting....
I don't like it around my neck and / or under my outer shirt.
I don't like it in my bag.
I don't like it in my pocket.
And, I don't like it on my bag strap.
I guess I should say I don't care for "stuff" hanging all off me while I'm shooting.

A bag and a horn is actually one item too many but, like many others, I make do. and actually manage them fairly well.

In fact, I've been thinking about no longer using the charger at all and no longer using a horn, just a bag on the left side (with a powder dispenser inside the bag) and my rifle on the right side.,,,currently that's somewhat reversed in the sense my bag is on the right, my horn is on the left, and I carry my gun right handed, while my "primer" is around my beck in front of me...

You would think somebody that has been doing this as long as I have would all those little details worked out by now....and I have worked them out, several times over in fact.
It's just that my thoughts and ideas change over the years, your's will too, in time......

Uncle Russ...
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Post by: biliff on October 26, 2010, 01:42:11 PM: Most of the time I use 4F because I have it and it works for me.

However, if I don't have any for some reason (like forgetting to fill the priming flask) the 3F seems to work just as well.
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Post by: david32cal on October 26, 2010, 02:42:24 PM: 4f and will probably be using it for the rest of my days,seein' as i have five pounds of it.
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Post by: pathfinder on October 26, 2010, 03:41:08 PM: I use 4f at shoots and 3f when hunting. 2+3f have a graphite coating which helps the hydroscopic nature of black powder,or so I'm told. See no difference between any of them from a practicule sense
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Post by: Loyalist Dave on October 26, 2010, 05:32:26 PM: 3Fg, 70 grains with a .530 round ball, and prime with the same. One horn works best for me. I did at one time try the 4Fg gig with a second horn, then switched to a little, spring loaded, brass dispenser..., well I was always messing about with the two horns, and the 4Fg would, on damp days (we got lots of fog where I used to hunt, on the Potomac River) it would turn to damp goo in the pan. Might've been a poorly fitted frizzen, but switching to only 3Fg did fix the problem. Have a newer rifle now..., haven't tried 4Fg since, so can't give you a better evaluation.

4Fg Makes good firecrackers though. Also good in little single shot pistols, in say .31 caliber.

LD
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Post by: jbullard1 on October 26, 2010, 06:25:17 PM: 4f only because I have it
I am working on loading and priming from the same horn
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Post by: Trois Castors on October 26, 2010, 08:59:39 PM: I use 4f hunting and target-shooting.
I use 3f in battle reenactments because that's
what's in the rolled paper cartridges.
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Post by: Roaddog on October 27, 2010, 04:08:29 AM: I use 4F most of the time and like others here I have a lot of it. If it's damp and rainy I prime from the horn.
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Post by: Caddo on October 27, 2010, 08:55:57 AM: Used 2f for years with no problems, now I have a 45 cal rifle and use 3f for everything.
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Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on October 28, 2010, 03:33:57 PM: Like Russ , I don"t want anymore gadgets hanging loose then can be helped . I"ve never used 4ffff as a prime , the speed of the 3fff suits me fine, if there was a faster prime I don"t think I could tell the difference ? I"ve worked up 3fff loads for all my guns from .32 to .54 that kills paper very well and anything I hunt up to and including deer . I do use 2ff if thats what I have , but my nomel choice is 3fff . Both flinters light off with no big difference in speed then with the 3fff . My THs are on the large side and that may be why the 2ff sets off the main charge so fast ?
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Post by: Pete_Sheeran on October 29, 2010, 11:03:09 PM: I seem to go through about 1/2 lb. of 4Fg per year. Most the shooting I do is competition. Only a couple of shots a year for hunting, one for deer and may be two for turkey. I do check and re-fresh my prime while hunting as many as 5 times a day.

I played around with lots of different priming, from 1Fg to 6Fg. Yes, I got some 6 Fg at the Winter Nationals from the guy there that brings in a U-Haul of powder. I did not find that it was any faster ignition. It seemed to actually be a bit slower unless you mixed it 3Fg or 4Fg. That got me to wondering why? I suspect that the supper fine 6Fg had a higher component of graphite, which is what the "g" in Fg stands for. I had also used 3Fg with very good results. And 2Fg and even 1Fg will work (and quite well) if you over fill your pan and crush it with the frizzen/pancover! I have found that when you do that in a damp environment, your pan is more prone to "goo" up. The main reason for tumbling the powder in the manufacture with graphite, is to make it less hydroscopic, or less prone to "goo".

Don't take my word for it, check it out for yourself. Pete

P.S. Why didn't I try 5Fg? They didn't have any.
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Post by: Whitedog on October 30, 2010, 01:07:21 PM: Long, long ago, in 1965, when I was about 11, an old timer once told me that the little horns that some considered "Priming horns" were nothing but horns that men took out with them on day hunts. The larger horns often found were for longer periods in the field and for resupplying the smaller horns. He said that the hunters didn't intend to use two separate horns and that having to deal with a separate horn getting in the way didn't make any sense. He said that the small horns could be carried in a pocket or a pouch easily enough. Interestingly, this bit of information was also recently mentioned to me by another person from another forum. The old man also told me (and my grandparents) that the practice of using the same grade of powder for priming and loading was the rule as it'd "been the way since the beginning" as was the practice while using Paper cartridges with Muskets. Sounded good to me then and still sounds like good advice. He died at the age of 103 when I was 13, so that would've meant he was born in or around 1864. I remember him telling my grandparents this and other things at their house over dinner when my grandpa, who was born in 1896, showed him a small horn that gramps had hanging from a nail by a wire for years from the basement stair case wall.
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Post by: Mustang on November 12, 2010, 12:30:36 PM: I use 4f to prime. It is faster and there are two ways to confirm this. First read Larry Pletcher's article on priming powder done with his sophisticated timing equipment. The differences are small, OK, I grant that. Second test, I have two sons that shoot muzzle loaders with me and for an experiment I loaded their guns without telling them what prime I used. We shot a few dozen times. Now either they are fantastic guessers, nearly 100%, or you really can tell the speed difference between 4f and 2f. Their accuracy was not as good with 4f vs 3f but still way above just guessing. Try it yourself. Use what you want but it's a fact 4f is faster than 2f, and even 3f.

BTW, Null B was the fastest. You may still say the difference is small but all your loading techniques are cumulative.
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Post by: B.Habermehl on November 28, 2010, 10:26:22 PM: For hunting I use either 4f or 3f depending on the expected weather. I really don't see a significant diffierence. Granted I use a large Chambers Round faced English lock on my primary deer hunting rifle. Big lock, big flint lots of sparks. I have found in my expierence 4f will cake or mush quicker than 3f. Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: 4f or 3f for priming powder?
Post by: Dphariss on November 30, 2010, 09:45:59 AM: Quote from: "jtwodogs"
4f or 3f for priming powder?
thanks

FFFF no question. Used it for decades. Several advantages. Such as it will flow through the vent if the ball is loaded without powder so 10-15 grains canbe trickled through with a little help from a vent pick or tooth pick and the "dry" ball shot out in a minute or less. FFF may do this but is tougher to do unless the vent is large.
If there are moisture problems its generally from FOULING. Fouling sucks up water like a sponge at over 30% humidity and at 90+ the fouling will liquify. The presence of fouling will cause the priming to be exposed to water with the obvious result. In low humidity this is little concern even over an hour or so. In high humidity the fouling in the pan can liquify while the barrel is being loaded.
So the barrel and pan must be CLEAN of all fouling if to be left loaded very long.

Dan
Title: Re: 4f or 3f for priming powder?
Post by: Dphariss on November 30, 2010, 09:59:52 AM: Quote from: "jtwodogs"
4f or 3f for priming powder?
thanks

FFFF is also faster is actual electronic tests.
This should be in one of the tests or articles at http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured- ... art-ii.php (http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/flintlock-timing-part-ii.php)

Dan
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Post by: Dphariss on November 30, 2010, 10:39:22 AM: Quote from: "Whitedog"
Long, long ago, in 1965, when I was about 11, an old timer once told me that the little horns that some considered "Priming horns" were nothing but horns that men took out with them on day hunts. The larger horns often found were for longer periods in the field and for resupplying the smaller horns. He said that the hunters didn't intend to use two separate horns and that having to deal with a separate horn getting in the way didn't make any sense. He said that the small horns could be carried in a pocket or a pouch easily enough. Interestingly, this bit of information was also recently mentioned to me by another person from another forum. The old man also told me (and my grandparents) that the practice of using the same grade of powder for priming and loading was the rule as it'd "been the way since the beginning" as was the practice while using Paper cartridges with Muskets. Sounded good to me then and still sounds like good advice. He died at the age of 103 when I was 13, so that would've meant he was born in or around 1864. I remember him telling my grandparents this and other things at their house over dinner when my grandpa, who was born in 1896, showed him a small horn that gramps had hanging from a nail by a wire for years from the basement stair case wall.

The squirrel rifle/day horn is obvious its much larger, 2-3 times larger in capacity.
The hunting pouch of David Cooke 1761-1842 has both a salt horn and a priming horn.
See pg 257 of Kentucky Rifles & Pistols 1750-1850.
This was/is one of those "your mileage may vary" things and this continues to this day. Its a choice.
In my experience priming with the main horn is nothing if not a major PITA. I use a smaller horn with a smaller spout since I like finer prime and it also results is less waste/over priming that occurs with the larger end of the main horn.

Dan
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Post by: Whitedog on December 01, 2010, 01:32:57 AM: Thanks for the information. That sounds good to me. I've primed with a large horn and also a small horn and I believe the small horn dispensing FFFg is preferable. FFFg is what I use as my primary charge too since I load a .380 ball. I'll be using the small horn anyway because my two bloodhounds tried to chew the end of my antique, large New England horn off. ouch!