Post by: Rick Villerot on January 12, 2011, 10:54:03 PM
Now I have finished it a year ago with multiple hand rubbed coats of linsead oil so will it take stain ? ? ?
And would using tung oil seal it a little better & prevent anymore fadeing ? ? ?
Thanks for the help, I appreciate it...
Post by: pathfinder on January 12, 2011, 11:51:09 PM
Post by: Captchee on January 13, 2011, 10:21:11 AM
In fact I often stain after applying a flood coat of linseed
Part of the problem when folks use leather dye is that they don’t do it right .
See leather dye does not penetrate the wood well .
As such when its subject to the air it fades over time because linseed by itself ,even if its boiled linseed , is not a very good protect ant .
So what happens is folks dye their stock . Then use linseed oil to finish . Over time things start to fade..
See linseed is only about 10% impervious to moisture and air .
Where Tung oil is around 90% .
What that means is that with linseed . Air and moisture moves through the oil very easily . This is why you can stain through it and get a reasonable blending on a repair .
You try to do that with Tung oil and the color will never quite match without suspending it .
So here is what I do . Now I should note I do this on all stocks no mater what stain or dye im using .
First I stain or dye the stock . Then I come back with multiple coats of linseed, starting with a flood coat . then normally 4-7 finish coats that are wet sanded between coats .
that’s followed by to light coats of Tung oil .
Now what happens is that the linseed then stops the Tung oil from penetrating the wood .
However it does allow it to bind with the surface of the linseed .
Here is the benefit .
By doing the above , you get the high protection of the Tung oil . Which doesn’t let your less penetrating stains or dyes fade as easily .
you also get the repair quality of the linseed . So if say down the road you want to re stain the stock or have to repair a section of it . All you have to do is sand through the Tung oil
And dow to the linseed . Do the repair and then restrain and blend .
Because the linseed has held the tung oil out of the wood and with the linseed only being 10% impervious , 90% of the color of you stain or dye , goes right through.
BUT if you used only Tung oil as the finish, it will penitrate very deep into the wood . its very hard to near impossable to get through the tung oil so that the wood will take a even stain .
Post by: pathfinder on January 13, 2011, 11:48:22 AM
Post by: Captchee on January 13, 2011, 02:04:07 PM
Quote from: "pathfinder"
I always thin the first coats of BLO with turpinetine,50/50 to get the penetration I need. 50 years of re-finishing has taught me that.
Post by: Rick Villerot on January 14, 2011, 12:19:46 AM
Cap' if I was to put some BLO & then tung oil would it keep it from fading more?
I like the color right now just dont want it to get any liter, I did use the alcohol based leather dye.
Maybe I should get some Dangler stain & re-do it, the only thing is what if comes out & I dont like it.
Wha'cha think ? ? ?
Post by: Captchee on January 14, 2011, 09:02:05 AM
Quote
Cap' if I was to put some BLO & then tung oil would it keep it from fading more?. Ya you can . . you should only need a couple light coats of linseed and then one even light coat of tung .
But be sure to clean the stock up good so as to remove any surface oils first
what i see is fading as described by pathfinder . IE its in the areas where you hold the rifle .
My bet is the color is getting more milky in those areas .
Through the years I have had a number of stocks , stained with many different stains and dyes to include Fortis , that have done just what yours is doing .
I have often wondered if this has to do more with the acidic nature of my skin then with anything else .
As pathfinder noted . If when you applied the linseed , you did not dilute the flood coat , then the linseed isn’t that deep into your stock .
That combined with the a stain that doesn’t penetrate all that deep and you have all the color right on the surface so with wear , it gets light .
The other thing to remember is as I said before . Linseed is only about 10% impervious.
As such , some commonly used gun oils can go through into the wood and even discolor the stain .
Now don’t get me wrong here . BLO has been used for ever on gin stocks .
Just keep in mind that its not the strongest of oils . As such as a stock wears over time , it will need re oiled now and then
Post by: pathfinder on January 14, 2011, 09:47:14 AM
This is Pox,bird's eye southern gun I built @ 25years ago and was about the color of your gun when I finished her,just gets better with age!
Post by: Captchee on January 14, 2011, 09:58:59 AM
Quote from: "pathfinder"
I think She looks fine!
(http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss42/pathfinder_01/th_guns011.jpg) (http://http)
This is Pox,bird's eye southern gun I built @ 25years ago and was about the color of your gun when I finished her,just gets better with age!
agreed pathfinder . IMO a gun is like a fine wine . it only gets better with age.
but sometimes that age is telling us something . right now im working on a sxs that has a broken stock .
over time the cleaning oils have gotten in and around the locks and weakened the stock to the point it finally broke . The wood is unbelievably oil soaked .
Im not saying that’s what is happening with the gun in question .
Myself it looks like it possibly just needs a little oil .
But its hard to tell from looking at the photo .
Like you , I think It looks good . Color seems to be fine . Its just lightening in the areas where it receives the most use
Post by: Rick Villerot on January 14, 2011, 11:11:03 AM
Post by: Rick Villerot on January 17, 2011, 01:39:46 AM
Question is, Now does it look not so period correct. Did they have tung oil back then or some form of laquer ? ? ?
I believe the wood did need some protection from moisture, am I correct.
Alos forgive me if'n I sound like a pilgrim, this is the first gun I have done.
Thanks for the info.
Post by: Captchee on January 17, 2011, 09:40:37 AM
As to your question about oils
Lacquers, no . not as we know it today .that would be around 1850 if I recall .
So basically you would probably have seen Oils , Varnishes , Shellacs and Wax’s . With the last being a mater of debate for some concerning gun stocks .
Tung oil was as I understand it , not imported into north America tell around 1900
It like linseed is a true oil that’s the result of pressing . Where linseed oil comes from a seed of the Flax plant . Tung oil comes from a nut .specifically a Tung tree nut .
Both are whats called drying oils . IE they will dry on their own / well I should say dry to what we think is dry .
Lets say you used true linseed oil . Which you probably did not .
What you would have used would have been Flax seed oil .
If you went down and bought a finish grade oil , labeled linseed Oil . Then you used either boiled linseed or a mix of boiled linseed with driers added . Driers are added to the oil to speed up the dry time . depending on the driers added . they also can allow the oil to be built up with repeated applications
Same with Tung oil . What you get in the furniture department is a mix of Tung oils and other driers . Thus its really technically more of a varnish …
If you would have used True Tung oil or Flaxseed oil without driers or boiling , you would have still been waiting for the first coat to dry if applied when you first posted .
Then you have shellac
Most folks don’t realize that this also is a natural product . Here in the Americas.
Many of the plains peoples used it as a sealer rendering it from the fluid obtained from the eyes of the buffalo .
You know when you leave your car under a tree that’s infested with aphids and you get that white coating on the car that’s a real PITA to get off . Well that’s basically a form of shellac .
As to what was used on period guns .
Well we know that the British used varnish a lot on their military grade weapons .
As far as civilian weapons . Most believe boiled linseed would have been the finish of choice . But in a true period documentation source the verdict IMO is still one of debate. There just isn’t any real pinpoint information . But what we do have is a lot of information on period furniture finishes. As such many folks believe that such applications would naturally also be applied as gun finishes . But again this is speculation and thus a mater of some debate