Post by: MrFox on January 20, 2011, 01:01:55 AM
Balls... I guess any .49 will do.
Patches... Which thickness to start with? I have .15 and .20 easily available at store near me, and .18 as a mail order. Is .15 too little and .20 too tight? OR should any be all right and I'd get one of those .15 (or .20) and go shooting?
Powder... I'd rather start with Black powder, not a Pyrodex (I heard some people said it's more corrosive than Powder). Is FFG or FFFG better place to start? I'd rather go with FFFG, since it's a hotter load for the same price and I might as well load less powder per shot. Are there any advantages for FFG though?
So, please tell me if I am correct or not.
Post by: sse on January 20, 2011, 09:31:12 AM
I used black powder exclusively in the .50 I used to have. I used FFg and still do in my .54. Some guys go with FFFg. As far as performance differences between the two, I would have to defer to those who used both and chose one over the other for a specific reason.
I used to use T/C patches pre-lubed with bore butter. Prhaps someone else will come along and give you a better option there. Good luck.
Post by: rickevans on January 20, 2011, 09:45:04 AM
Are you brand new to blackpowder muzzleloading? Ask ANY THING you want here, you will find there are many centuries of experience to be shared.
Rick
Post by: Uncle Russ on January 20, 2011, 10:01:44 AM
Good information from Rick and Jim....a good place to start is always a place that will allow you just a bit of flexibility, up or down....
I would think the suggestion of a .490 ball, .010 patch and 65 / 70gr FFFg Goex Real black powder will likely get you just about dead center of that so-called starting point, with very few or any adjustments needed or required, as only you and your rifle can determine exactly where that 'sweet spot' in your loading really lies.
Try it, you'll like it!
Uncle Russ...
Post by: sse on January 20, 2011, 10:06:40 AM
Currently my fave is spit.
Post by: Bigsmoke on January 20, 2011, 10:14:37 AM
Quote from: "MrFox"
OK, now as I get a .50 caliber rifle, where do I go next? How can I learn which load my rifle likes most without buying every single product on the market?
Sorry, you won't. The only way to find out what your rifle likes best is to shoot it and find out. Keep records. Every target you fire, mark on it the ball diameter, patch, powder type and volume and kind of patch lube.
Balls... I guess any .49 will do.
Unless it prefers .495 or ,498. typically, a tighter ball will work better than a looser, but a looser ball will load easier than a tighter.
Patches... Which thickness to start with? I have .15 and .20 easily available at store near me, and .18 as a mail order. Is .15 too little and .20 too tight? OR should any be all right and I'd get one of those .15 (or .20) and go shooting?
Again, try them each and see which the rifle likes. It is just impossible to determine the answer to your question on the computer, you gotta get out and shoot it.
Powder... I'd rather start with Black powder, not a Pyrodex (I heard some people said it's more corrosive than Powder). Is FFG or FFFG better place to start? I'd rather go with FFFG, since it's a hotter load for the same price and I might as well load less powder per shot. Are there any advantages for FFG though?
Agreed, black powder is where it is at. Synthetics should only be employed in a case of not being able to obtain the real thing. Ffg vs Fffg is an age old debate. And again, the answer is to got out and find out the rifle's preference by shooting it. I prefer the coarser grade of powder as it seems to put less stress on the rifle.
So, please tell me if I am correct or not.
When I am getting to know a new rifle I will dedicate a day at the range. I take a supply of targets with me, a Sharpie to write with, a pound of powder, a full bag of patches and a box of round ball and some patch lube, plus cleaning supplies, a measure marked in 5 grain increments and a good range rod. I like to post the targets at 25 yards for two reasons, one is lack of atmospheric problems with short range shooting and two, my eyes see the target better at that range.
So, starting with a clean rifle that you have popped a couple of caps through to clear any oil out of the passageways, load the rifle with one grain of powder for each caliber. So, in a .50 cal rifle, set the measure at 50 grains and load the rifle. This is going to be a test for a particular ball patch lube combo, so do not change any of the other variables. Shoot a three shot group at the target, off a solid bench rest. Don't worry about sight settings at this point, unless you are not on the paper. If not, adjust the sights to bring it on paper. So, you have the first target shot with three rounds. Retrieve it and post a fresh one. Mark the target what the load was. Some folks will also record the wind speed, direction, temperature, humidity and what they had for breakfast(if spit patching). At this point, I would wipe the bore and pop another cap.
Ready for round two. Increase the volume of the measure by five grains. You are now at 55 grains for your .50 cal rifle. Fire another 3 shots, retrieve, post, record, wipe barrel, etc.
Round three. Increase the charge to 60 grains, etc.
Round four, increase the charge to .65 grains, etc.
Repeat this process up to the maximum charge advised by the manufacturer of the rifle.
OK, so now you have a collection of perforated targets to spread out in front of you. As you are looking at them, you will see that at some point the grouping will start to tighten up. They will get smaller and smaller until at one point, they will start to open up again. Say that is at 80 grains. So, your deduction is that at 80 grains of Ffg with a .015 patch, moose milk lube, CCI Magnum caps and GOEX FFG powder under a .490 ball, you have the most accurate load for the rifle.
Maybe.
The next step is, are you happy with that grouping? If so, you are done. Don't ever change your combination. When you open a new can of powder, shoot a test group to make sure you are still where you want to be. If you are not pleased with the results of your range session, then it is back at it with supplies to change ONE variable. Say you want to try a thicker (or thinner) patch. Go for the gusto, do your test firings again with that ONE variable changed. Are the results better or worse? Repeat as necessary.
The worst thing that you are going to do with this process is spend a day or two at the rifle range and get to know your rifle. Not a bad deal.
Enjoy
John
Post by: Uncle Russ on January 20, 2011, 10:42:03 AM
Quote from: "sse"
Uncle Rooskee, yer slippin...what is your recommended lube?
Currently my fave is spit.
Jim Beau, I spent a life time chasin that "very best" lube and I do want to thank you for allowing me to elaborate a bit on this mystery of all mysteries...the elusive Great Lube.
Making and experimenting with 'homemade' lube has been a passionate side-line hobby for many of us old timers ever since we were just pups....we never miss an opportunity to try something new, something improved, and something better.
However, it turns out to be all in the finding of that new, improved, and better lube....you must first recognize it before you can lay claim to it and say it is indeed better.
I've played with everything from Crisco, to Bore Butter, to Natural 1000, to LeHigh Valley, to Emerts, to Moose Milk of a dozen different persuasions, to my very latest concoction, that was before now unnamed, but which I have just decided to name....
This new Miracle Lube is to be known as....
[size=150]Weaver Beaver[/size]
The Weaving Welshman and Beaverman had more than just a little input into it's formula so I thought the name to be appropriate. I'm still a bit at odds on exactly how much water is to be added to complete the process....but I'm very close.
Since it's final ingredients are still a bit in debate (at least inside my own head) I will just skip that part for now and say it's good stuff, real good stuff.
In the meantime, for MrFox, I would suggest he try Crisco, Natural 1000 (used exactly as the directions say, not just a dab on a patch)...... or plain old spit, spit patches are still a wonderful way to go and you can't go wrong using 'em.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: rickevans on January 20, 2011, 10:42:05 AM
Rick
Post by: Firewalker on January 20, 2011, 10:53:34 AM
Quote from: "sse"
Currently my fave is spit.
Here in the northern climes spit sticks in the bore at freezing temps. :lol:
Works great in the summer. Just wash the sizing out before you start chewing on patches. It tastes real bad.
Post by: sse on January 20, 2011, 11:03:17 AM
I use Oxyoke .018's, pre-cut. There is an odd flavor to them so I hope it's not toxic or anything. I do have some washed pillow ticking that I've never cut and tried, spose I could and see if the thickness is compatible.
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on January 20, 2011, 11:49:58 AM
:)
I would have to concur with the others here that one of the most important aspects of finding the "sweet spot'for both you and the rifle is to change only ONE varible at a time . Even after you get things to where it's doing well you"will no doubt decide to try to tweak it up some more. :lol:
Post by: Firewalker on January 20, 2011, 12:45:38 PM
Targets I use 70g 3f or 2f, whatefer I have the most of. For hunting I use 95g.
Post by: MrFox on January 20, 2011, 12:46:23 PM
I was under impression that a thicker patch .015 or 0.020 is needed for tighter fit... But well if 0.010 is a good starting point, then that's what I am buying!
Post by: Sneakon on January 20, 2011, 01:02:21 PM
Quote
Since it's final ingredients are still a bit in debate (at least inside my own head) I will just skip that part for now and say it's good stuff, real good stuff
Russ,
Don't forget to post the formula when you finalize ingredients. I've been mixing the same mouse juice for too long now and would like to try something new.
Post by: Uncle Russ on January 20, 2011, 01:39:55 PM
Quote from: "Sneakon"
QuoteSince it's final ingredients are still a bit in debate (at least inside my own head) I will just skip that part for now and say it's good stuff, real good stuff
Russ,
Don't forget to post the formula when you finalize ingredients. I've been mixing the same mouse juice for too long now and would like to try something new.
Apparently every body in the world has been using this "Hoppes #9 Mouse Juice" except me and Sneakon...guess we need to get out more.
I can tell you it is very similar to many other Moose Milk formulas, with the exception of adding the Hoppes #9.
If you are anything like silly ol' me, you already spent a bloody fortune on everything from Dutch Schultz's formula to Mama Flinter's special Moose Milk and none of it really reaches that near perfect lube we are continually in search of.
Our own Bigsmoke sells a really good lube called "Just good lube" but I believe he use to call it ol' Thunder or some such....at one time I had a half-dozen cans, then I tried to make it better and things kinda went south on me....such foolish experiments can eventually become expensive.
Seems I have never learned to leave well enough alone!
Both Beaverman and Lynn feel that with this new concoction, or new to me at least, they can actually shoot all day long with no wiping, or an occasional wiping at best. I'm sure there are others in the GRMM that use it also.
Still yet, as soon as I can get to the range I will post a report as I see it, complete with ingredients, on this #9 Mouse Juice that I somehow like to call Weaver Beaver...
That all day shootin thing has a great appeal to me!
Don't want to Hijack MrFox' thread, so perhaps this can serve a purpose of warning him of the failures he might face in trying to re-invent the wheel....stick with the basics until you know your rifle inside and out.
There are lots of good lubes on the market, and they've been on the market for years.
Save this kind of thing for your retirement years, when you have lots of time and patience....along with the experience of recognizing a problem before it becomes a real problem.
And, there is absolutely no problem whatsoever with the many good, and even common lubes we have now.
This lube making thing is a whole other dimension in muzzleloading, and not worth messin with until all the other variables have been worked out.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Two Steps on January 20, 2011, 04:39:26 PM
Quote
and especially Master BigSmoke
Oh No!!! Now he's gonna want all of us to call him that ;)
Al
Post by: Bigsmoke on January 20, 2011, 07:26:21 PM
Master Bigsmoke, SIR. :rotf And then do this:
Russ,
Just Good Lube is a beeswax/jojoba oil compound. I think it is really a bit stiff for patch lube, but works well for bullet lube and as a preservative.
For patch lube, the Ol' Thunder is the deal. I can shoot my petite little charcoal burners all day long without wiping the bore using it as a patch lube. One time just for grins, I shot a 25 shot trailwalk with a .69 caliber rifle using a 250 grain charge of Ffg, .015 Ox Yoke patch and a .678 diameter ball. Never wiped the bore and I dare say the last shot loaded as easy as the first. That's pretty hard to argue with.
Easy to find, either look on the web site or check with Fletcher. He handles it as well.
John
Post by: Hank in WV on January 20, 2011, 08:04:21 PM
Post by: Bigsmoke on January 20, 2011, 08:33:31 PM
AS a matter of fact, they are a great group of guys. I think all they said was some of those targets needed to be rewelded, anyhow. Yeah, the spinner targets were really impressive to see react. Thought one was going to take off like a helicopter.
They didn't flinch when I came back with a 12 bore rifle, but when I showed up with the 8 bore, they really cringed. I didn't use it, but it was worth the laughs to show up with it.
Sorry to hijack the thread
John
Post by: W. Welshman on January 20, 2011, 11:44:16 PM
WEAVER BEAVER FOULING CLEANER
AVAILABLE AT YOUR NEAREST POND
OR YARN SHOP
Post by: MrFox on January 20, 2011, 11:52:42 PM
Post by: BEAVERMAN on January 21, 2011, 12:11:05 AM
Quote from: "RussB"
Quote from: "sse"Uncle Rooskee, yer slippin...what is your recommended lube?
Currently my fave is spit.
Jim Beau, I spent a life time chasin that "very best" lube and I do want to thank you for allowing me to elaborate a bit on this mystery of all mysteries...the elusive Great Lube.
Making and experimenting with 'homemade' lube has been a passionate side-line hobby for many of us old timers ever since we were just pups....we never miss an opportunity to try something new, something improved, and something better.
However, it turns out to be all in the finding of that new, improved, and better lube....you must first recognize it before you can lay claim to it and say it is indeed better.
I've played with everything from Crisco, to Bore Butter, to Natural 1000, to LeHigh Valley, to Emerts, to Moose Milk of a dozen different persuasions, to my very latest concoction, that was before now unnamed, but which I have just decided to name....
This new Miracle Lube is to be known as....
[size=150]Weaver Beaver[/size]
The Weaving Welshman and Beaverman had more than just a little input into it's formula so I thought the name to be appropriate. I'm still a bit at odds on exactly how much water is to be added to complete the process....but I'm very close.
Since it's final ingredients are still a bit in debate (at least inside my own head) I will just skip that part for now and say it's good stuff, real good stuff.
In the meantime, for MrFox, I would suggest he try Crisco, Natural 1000 (used exactly as the directions say, not just a dab on a patch)...... or plain old spit, spit patches are still a wonderful way to go and you can't go wrong using 'em.
Uncle Russ...
Actually Uncle Russ the guys at GRMM call it Beaver Milk, and I'm getting ready to go in to production with the formula!
Post by: Uncle Russ on January 21, 2011, 01:59:23 AM
Quote
Actually Uncle Russ the guys at GRMM call it Beaver Milk, and I'm getting ready to go in to production with the formula!
That's great, then I'll back down and just watch the show.
Got me self a half-gallon jug full, just waiting on a weather change to start the testing....with a 1/2 gal starting point, I left myself plenty of room for water to find that "sweet-spot".
Reminds me of making Ed's Red.....ain't no way you can make just a little bit!
If you're going into production, you better hitch you hurries up and get 'em going, good things won't sit forever, once some enterprising young fella sees it at work, it's going to walk right out from under ya ....trust me on this.
I would still be using LeHigh Valley.....if they hadn't changed hands, and then changed the formula. Within 6 months of that change happening, word got out and things went south on the new folks.....some lubes have just got it, some just don't...
WEAVER BEAVER....gotta nice ring to it, no?
Uncle Russ...
Post by: sse on January 21, 2011, 09:28:14 AM
Quote
Beaver MilkGlad you came up with a substitute, because it was always tough to get that beaver milk the old fashioned way...LOL
Post by: Ironhand on January 21, 2011, 10:24:01 AM
Variations in caps between manufacturers {CCI vs Rem} and styles {#11 vs musket} can have a large effect on the ballistics of a given load. Once you know what works for your load buy a good supply and always use that cap with that load.
Don't give in to the temptation to use whatever is on sale. You may not like the results
Post by: sse on January 21, 2011, 10:43:39 AM
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on January 21, 2011, 11:24:57 AM
Post by: MrFox on January 21, 2011, 02:24:15 PM
Quote from: "Gordon H.Kemp"
I"ve ound the Remington brand to be very consistant . Overall , after using several of the brand name caps.
I saw multiple good reviews on Remington #11 caps and mixed reviews of CCI caps, so I shall start with Remington and if I have any problems with those, I'll consider going into musket caps.
Post by: Bigsmoke on January 21, 2011, 03:00:58 PM
I have always had good results with Remington, but that was years and years ago. About all I can find on the local market is CCI, so I get the CCI Magnum caps.
I am a bit allergic to paying HazMat fees to UPS caps in.
Post by: lefty41 on January 21, 2011, 04:44:09 PM
Post by: Ironhand on January 22, 2011, 07:09:33 PM
Quote
Not to forget RWS. In my mind, the best, hottest cap on the market.
Did not mean to short RWS. My wife was a absolutely scary offhand shot back when she did competition and all she would use was RWS caps. They are a little hard to get but they are good caps.
Post by: sse on January 22, 2011, 07:49:34 PM
Post by: Bigsmoke on January 22, 2011, 08:49:35 PM
Also, when you bought a case (100,000 caps)of them they were packed in a great little wooden box. Made great camp boxes and such.
Sure miss all that.
Post by: sse on January 22, 2011, 09:45:39 PM
Post by: Bigsmoke on January 23, 2011, 10:37:26 AM
Buying for resale.
By the case, you got a pretty good price break.
Post by: IronBull on January 26, 2011, 03:56:10 AM
Now days: Pillow ticking patches (yard of the stuff for couple bucks at Wal-Mart), homemade lube, Goex FFFG, CCI caps. If I miss its me, benched she's threadin the needle through the hole!
Also when Rondy target shootin not Jackin the powder charge up anymore, dropped grain level to the bore size, worked out great for me anyhow!
Oh yeah this is a C.V.A Hawken in .45 cal. Have not shot or sighted in the Lyman G.P.R 54 I just bought, but that's another disscussion for some other post!