Post by: burch on February 19, 2011, 10:50:07 AM
Burch
Post by: biliff on February 19, 2011, 11:46:27 AM
Could be anything from a broken/worn sear to simply overtightening the screw that holds the lock in place.
What happens when you take the lock out of the rifle and cock it?
Post by: Bigsmoke on February 19, 2011, 11:49:27 AM
If that's all right, then take the lock out of the rifle and visually inspect what is happening when you bring it to full cock. That should let you know where the problem is.
Regarding the timing of the lock, I will let more flint involved people answer that. Myself, I'd just lay it next to a clock overnight and see what happened.
Probably not the way to do it.
Post by: burch on February 19, 2011, 12:18:57 PM
Quote from: "biliff"
You need to be a little more specific. Are you saying the gun won't go to full cock? Half cock?
Could be anything from a broken/worn sear to simply overtightening the screw that holds the lock in place.
What happens when you take the lock out of the rifle and cock it?
It`ll go to full and half cock. When I cock it to full is when it fires by itself. I loosened the screw that holds the lock in place and it doesn`t seem to be doing it any more. I`m going to shoot it this afternoon and see what happens. I also took the lock out of the rifle and it didn`t do it. I hope it was just having the screw too tight. I`d rather have to take the dummy award then buy parts
Post by: burch on February 19, 2011, 12:21:33 PM
Quote from: "bigsmoke"
first, check the tension screw on your triggers. If it is in too far, the lock will not hold full cock.
If that's all right, then take the lock out of the rifle and visually inspect what is happening when you bring it to full cock. That should let you know where the problem is.
Regarding the timing of the lock, I will let more flint involved people answer that. Myself, I'd just lay it next to a clock overnight and see what happened. :lol:
Post by: Loyalist Dave on February 19, 2011, 01:59:31 PM
When you mentioned releasing some pressure with loosening the lock screw, it gave me a hint, though I couldn't be sure unless I looked at the lock, but...,
Wood changes over time, with moisture, etc. I have found several times that wood when it swells, can push on some internal parts of a lock. I have found this only with mass produced items such as Hatfield, McCoy, Navy Arms, and Pedersoli flintlocks. The wood may be pressing on the sear, or messing with the sear spring, or another internal part(s). It's an easy fix, AND you need to have it tended to. A looser lock may leave a very small gap between where it meets the barrel and the pan..., you don't want powder collecting below the pan inside the lock mortise.
Just take a candle, and blacken the "internal" area of the lock all over, then gently replace the lock but don't tighten with the screws. Give it a gentle tap once it is seated, now tighten the screws to where you used to tighten them, and then carefully remove the lock. You should see black marks on the wood where the lock parts are rubbing, thus giving you a clue where the problem lies. You may then want to show it to a person who has installed locks to be sure you only remove what wood you should.
LD
Post by: burch on February 19, 2011, 02:11:30 PM
Quote from: "Loyalist Dave"
Sounds like a standard problem with production flinters...., it's not the lock, it's the wood. (At least I found it to be common)That is pure genious Dave, i`ll try it. Also, as a tip i`ve always applied Johnson Paste Wax inside the stocks of all my guns just for that very reason. I use most of my guns for hunting and with the morning dew or getting caught in the rain it`s never failed me yet.
When you mentioned releasing some pressure with loosening the lock screw, it gave me a hint, though I couldn't be sure unless I looked at the lock, but...,
Wood changes over time, with moisture, etc. I have found several times that wood when it swells, can push on some internal parts of a lock. I have found this only with mass produced items such as Hatfield, McCoy, Navy Arms, and Pedersoli flintlocks. The wood may be pressing on the sear, or messing with the sear spring, or another internal part(s). It's an easy fix, AND you need to have it tended to. A looser lock may leave a very small gap between where it meets the barrel and the pan..., you don't want powder collecting below the pan inside the lock mortise.
Just take a candle, and blacken the "internal" area of the lock all over, then gently replace the lock but don't tighten with the screws. Give it a gentle tap once it is seated, now tighten the screws to where you used to tighten them, and then carefully remove the lock. You should see black marks on the wood where the lock parts are rubbing, thus giving you a clue where the problem lies. You may then want to show it to a person who has installed locks to be sure you only remove what wood you should.
LD
Post by: Firewalker on February 19, 2011, 02:13:32 PM
Post by: burch on February 19, 2011, 02:43:27 PM
Quote from: "Firewalker"
As Dave said, blacken the inerds of the lock real well and tighten it up. If the lock mortice inside is dark wood you my not see the soot. In that case try some light colored lipstick on the lock instead.
What color lipstick do you prefer :lol:
Post by: Firewalker on February 19, 2011, 06:02:43 PM
Post by: burch on February 19, 2011, 08:36:05 PM
Quote from: "Firewalker"
Whatever you have in your purse. ;)
Post by: Loyalist Dave on February 20, 2011, 08:08:36 AM
ASK the wife or significant other for a shade she will let you use...., don't just grab one out of the purse, for I have found it's nearly a Capital Offense to 1) Enter the purse w/o permission 2) Remove a lipstick for gunbuilding purposes as you will always grab a color she really likes, and probably just bought, and ..., they KNOW what the tip should look like so there's no way of disguising that it's been used for something not intended by her....,
LD
Post by: burch on February 20, 2011, 10:35:53 AM
Quote from: "Loyalist Dave"
DUDE!
ASK the wife or significant other for a shade she will let you use...., don't just grab one out of the purse, for I have found it's nearly a Capital Offense to 1) Enter the purse w/o permission 2) Remove a lipstick for gunbuilding purposes as you will always grab a color she really likes, and probably just bought, and ..., they KNOW what the tip should look like so there's no way of disguising that it's been used for something not intended by her...., :evil: Apparenty, you sir need to pull your man card and tell her who the boss really is. It`s just like when I need money or my man card. I just go straight to the purse and get it
Post by: Captchee on March 18, 2011, 10:18:24 AM
a few things . dave has a good point . but for inletting black i use an indelible marker . its not a messy as lipstick or candle soot
also not only can this happen in the lock mortise but also in the trigger inlet. especially if someone had over tightened the tang screw to many times and thus the triggers are now riding alittle to deep
the other issue can be with your set trigger adjustment . if you have the adjustment screw to far in it can cause the lock not to stay at the full cock because the back trigger bar is now to high . thus it holds the sear from making good contact .
As to timing a lock .
Are you meaning Tuning by chance ?
Post by: burch on March 19, 2011, 06:48:11 AM
Quote from: "Captchee"
im sorry i did not see this post .
a few things . dave has a good point . but for inletting black i use an indelible marker . its not a messy as lipstick or candle soot
also not only can this happen in the lock mortise but also in the trigger inlet. especially if someone had over tightened the tang screw to many times and thus the triggers are now riding alittle to deep
the other issue can be with your set trigger adjustment . if you have the adjustment screw to far in it can cause the lock not to stay at the full cock because the back trigger bar is now to high . thus it holds the sear from making good contact .
As to timing a lock .
Are you meaning Tuning by chance ?
yes - tuning. Also, what about flints chipping and is this normal ? Also, is their a way to hardin` the frizzen ?
Post by: Captchee on March 19, 2011, 12:00:10 PM
When it comes to lock tuning , there really is a lot more to it then folks think.
Also how well a lock can be tuned is subject to the quality of the lock you start with .
Its like learning to read . Once you learn the letters , sounds and how to put them together a person begins to understand what it all means .
Tuning locks is much the same way . The lock is like a book in that it will tell you what it needs . Everything from what’s making it slow to when you need to Knapp your flint .
With more quality locks , most times all they need is just a polishing of all bearing surfaces. Yet with cheaper low quality locks, they often need a whole lot more . Even then many times they are made from such soft material that in no time at all the lock will once again be out of tune .
So what can you yourself do .
Well a start is to as I alluded to above . Polish up the bearing surfaces.
Take note of any wear marks in the lock plate caused by the tumbler , sear , or main spring … anywhere you have a wear mark or scratch from a moving part , its telling you that the part is dragging . So start by touching up what ever area is causing the issue .
NOTE: when I say touch up, this doesn’t mean grind away at the part. It means using diamond stones lightly touch things up so as they don’t drag . If you use a buffing wheel , be very careful not to over heat the part or you will start removing temper . You also have to keep things true . So keep that in mind
Once you have that you can then go in and polish . Start with the inside of the lock plate . Then work the tumbler over . Specifically the back side where the tumbler rides to the lock plate . The face of the tumbler where the sear rides .. don’t forget the hook where the main spring rides . Then move on to the sear . Polish up where it rides on the lock plate and bridle side . don’t forget the sear bar where it rides on the trigger bar
IF YOU KNOW what your doing you can even work over the face of the sear , where it engages the tumbler . Same thing goes with the main spring . But again if you don’t know what your doing , stay away from working the springs , sear face or tumbler notches over .
LET ME SAY THIS AGAIN : if you don’t know what your doing don’t mess with the sear face or tumbler notches . You can make the lock unsafe .
You also can make the springs weak . So IMO a novice should stay away from those areas .
Next is the frizzen toe . It should be polished smooth . NO casting lines or marks in that area at all .
Then move up to the area the frizzen rides in the bridle “ if you have such “ . these should be polished as well .
that’s about as far as I would recommend for the average person with little to no knowledge of muzzleloading firearms mechanics , to go
If you knowledgeable though then you can go even deeper by matching the frizzen and main springs “matching does not mean equal “ but complimentary.
Also truing bearing surfaces.. Proper geometry to the fall of the lock and frizzen angle as well as proper cam of the frizzen .
As I said , there is a lot more to tuning then just polishing . But most folks see a great improvement if they just do the polishing .
As to flint chips . All flints will chip . that’s normal . You have to learn to Knapp your flint so as to keep it sharp .
This doesn’t mean that your lock should be blowing flints apart . If this is happening then you could have many different issues or a combination of all
a) the wrong size flint or poor quality flint
b) flint is not set properly
c) poor geometry of the fall in relation to frizzen angle
d) weak or heavy frizzen spring
e) bad cam angle
There is a lot more to properly fixing C, D , E ) then I can explain to you without writing a book .
As to hardening your frizzen .
This all depends again on the quality of your lock . The frizzen has to be made from good quality carbon steel to start with. If its not , then it will never spark well ..
It should also be noted that just because a frizzen doesn’t spark . It doesn’t necessarily mean its to soft . It can in fact be to hard and thus also not spark .
So how do you tell .
Well the frizzen tells you by the color of the sparks it throws .
Red sparks = low temperature spark , soft
Yellow = medium temperature spark . Good hardness
White sparks = high temperature spark . Frizzen is on the hard side .
The other way is the file test . If you run a file across the face of the frizzen and it just skates across . Then the frizzen is to hard . If it easily cuts then its to soft .
If your frizzen is of quality then you can temper in all the above ranges . If its not then you have what you have and thus must either bring up the carbon level or re soul the frizzen face .
Now there are products like kasenite which is used to impart more carbon into a frizzen . But one should understand that this only is a surface treatment . As such as the frizzen wears , you will end up applying the product again . How often that’s needed , again depends on the quality of the frizzen you start with
With a quality frizzen the process involves bring the frizzen back up to Red , then quench . at this point a file should just skate across the frizzen .
Now the frizzen must be drawn back to a lower temperature IE a light straw color .
Then the bearing surface and hinge area , must be brought back up to blue .
This all gives the frizzen not only the ability to spark but also absorb the shock of being struck
See again you have to learn to read what the items are telling you . If you don’t you can end up with something that will break , wear to easily or not work at all .
So where are we ?
Well basically for something with so few moving parts , there is a whole lot that goes on into making it all work and work properly .
This is why you will find that just about all folks who have shot flintlocks for any real amount of time , recommend not skimping on the lock . A quality lock will give you a lifetime of enjoyment. The new shooter basically needs to be able to read little more then ;see spot run , to be able to keep the lock consistent and in working order . Thus resulting in a far quicker learning curve and many , many happy days in the field .
But with a poor quality lock , your liable to need to be able to read to the level of Shakespeare while at the same time understanding that even that’s not really going to be of much help as the time involved in maintaining it will far exceed the cost of a quality
Investment to begin with .
Now you say your rifle is a Hatfield.
Is it a custom Hatfield or one of those made in the US ?
OR
Is it a Investment Arms / Pedersoli Hatfield also know as a blue ridge, frontiersman ……..
If the later is the case , then it’s a roll of the dice as to quality . I have worked on such rifles where the parts were all so soft that nothing could be done . Yet still others that were way, way to hard .
I will also tell you something else. Pedresoli wants far more for their locks and parts then what you will pay for a far , FAR superior part .
Their locks run near 75.00 more then jim chambers charges for a very good quality lock . Their barrels run that or more then what you can get a Getz , Rice or most any other custom barrel for . Same way with their stocks , triggers . You name it .
While they sell that production rifle in a 3-500.00 range “which is also going up “
To build that rifle from their parts would cost a person 1500.00 + and you would still not have the quality of a 900.00 semi custom .
Please now don’t think im Knocking you or your gun . Im not . I just want you to know what you maybe in for . If you read the forum you will find a lot of folks that are and have been more then happy with their Hatfield rifles.
Just understand that the ones that come to me . Do so because they are having issues .
Hopefully yours is a good one and the questions your asking , are being ask for your knowledge , not because you are having any serious issues . I hope that’s the case .
If its not then I would suggest the following .
First and foremost, keep in mind that you may have to replace the lock .
Then jump in . learn all you can . Try and fix what you can . Knowledge is worth far more then any $ amount that can be placed on it .
If it comes to replacing parts or sending it to someone . Then keep a close eye on the actual cost vs. replacement with a quality lock . IMO once you start reaching the 50-60% cost mark , your better off with a new lock . But only you can make that decision. Because as I said the value of knowledge added to the pride of doing your own work , far exceeds any monetary value .
Anyway . This is WAY long . I hope I have in someway helped you .
Be safe and have a good day
Post by: burch on March 19, 2011, 02:03:42 PM
Quote from: "Captchee"
Let me start by saying , this would probably be better if the subject was over in the gun building area
When it comes to lock tuning , there really is a lot more to it then folks think.
Also how well a lock can be tuned is subject to the quality of the lock you start with .
Its like learning to read . Once you learn the letters , sounds and how to put them together a person begins to understand what it all means .
Tuning locks is much the same way . The lock is like a book in that it will tell you what it needs . Everything from what’s making it slow to when you need to Knapp your flint .
With more quality locks , most times all they need is just a polishing of all bearing surfaces. Yet with cheaper low quality locks, they often need a whole lot more . Even then many times they are made from such soft material that in no time at all the lock will once again be out of tune .
So what can you yourself do .
Well a start is to as I alluded to above . Polish up the bearing surfaces.
Take note of any wear marks in the lock plate caused by the tumbler , sear , or main spring … anywhere you have a wear mark or scratch from a moving part , its telling you that the part is dragging . So start by touching up what ever area is causing the issue .
NOTE: when I say touch up, this doesn’t mean grind away at the part. It means using diamond stones lightly touch things up so as they don’t drag . If you use a buffing wheel , be very careful not to over heat the part or you will start removing temper . You also have to keep things true . So keep that in mind
Once you have that you can then go in and polish . Start with the inside of the lock plate . Then work the tumbler over . Specifically the back side where the tumbler rides to the lock plate . The face of the tumbler where the sear rides .. don’t forget the hook where the main spring rides . Then move on to the sear . Polish up where it rides on the lock plate and bridle side . don’t forget the sear bar where it rides on the trigger bar
IF YOU KNOW what your doing you can even work over the face of the sear , where it engages the tumbler . Same thing goes with the main spring . But again if you don’t know what your doing , stay away from working the springs , sear face or tumbler notches over .
LET ME SAY THIS AGAIN : if you don’t know what your doing don’t mess with the sear face or tumbler notches . You can make the lock unsafe .
You also can make the springs weak . So IMO a novice should stay away from those areas .
Next is the frizzen toe . It should be polished smooth . NO casting lines or marks in that area at all .
Then move up to the area the frizzen rides in the bridle “ if you have such “ . these should be polished as well .
that’s about as far as I would recommend for the average person with little to no knowledge of muzzleloading firearms mechanics , to go
If you knowledgeable though then you can go even deeper by matching the frizzen and main springs “matching does not mean equal “ but complimentary.
Also truing bearing surfaces.. Proper geometry to the fall of the lock and frizzen angle as well as proper cam of the frizzen .
As I said , there is a lot more to tuning then just polishing . But most folks see a great improvement if they just do the polishing .
As to flint chips . All flints will chip . that’s normal . You have to learn to Knapp your flint so as to keep it sharp .
This doesn’t mean that your lock should be blowing flints apart . If this is happening then you could have many different issues or a combination of all
a) the wrong size flint or poor quality flint
b) flint is not set properly
c) poor geometry of the fall in relation to frizzen angle
d) weak or heavy frizzen spring
e) bad cam angle
There is a lot more to properly fixing C, D , E ) then I can explain to you without writing a book .
As to hardening your frizzen .
This all depends again on the quality of your lock . The frizzen has to be made from good quality carbon steel to start with. If its not , then it will never spark well ..
It should also be noted that just because a frizzen doesn’t spark . It doesn’t necessarily mean its to soft . It can in fact be to hard and thus also not spark .
So how do you tell .
Well the frizzen tells you by the color of the sparks it throws .
Red sparks = low temperature spark , soft
Yellow = medium temperature spark . Good hardness
White sparks = high temperature spark . Frizzen is on the hard side .
The other way is the file test . If you run a file across the face of the frizzen and it just skates across . Then the frizzen is to hard . If it easily cuts then its to soft .
If your frizzen is of quality then you can temper in all the above ranges . If its not then you have what you have and thus must either bring up the carbon level or re soul the frizzen face .
Now there are products like kasenite which is used to impart more carbon into a frizzen . But one should understand that this only is a surface treatment . As such as the frizzen wears , you will end up applying the product again . How often that’s needed , again depends on the quality of the frizzen you start with
With a quality frizzen the process involves bring the frizzen back up to Red , then quench . at this point a file should just skate across the frizzen .
Now the frizzen must be drawn back to a lower temperature IE a light straw color .
Then the bearing surface and hinge area , must be brought back up to blue .
This all gives the frizzen not only the ability to spark but also absorb the shock of being struck
See again you have to learn to read what the items are telling you . If you don’t you can end up with something that will break , wear to easily or not work at all .
So where are we ?
Well basically for something with so few moving parts , there is a whole lot that goes on into making it all work and work properly .
This is why you will find that just about all folks who have shot flintlocks for any real amount of time , recommend not skimping on the lock . A quality lock will give you a lifetime of enjoyment. The new shooter basically needs to be able to read little more then ;see spot run , to be able to keep the lock consistent and in working order . Thus resulting in a far quicker learning curve and many , many happy days in the field .
But with a poor quality lock , your liable to need to be able to read to the level of Shakespeare while at the same time understanding that even that’s not really going to be of much help as the time involved in maintaining it will far exceed the cost of a quality
Investment to begin with .
Now you say your rifle is a Hatfield.
Is it a custom Hatfield or one of those made in the US ?
OR
Is it a Investment Arms / Pedersoli Hatfield also know as a blue ridge, frontiersman ……..
If the later is the case , then it’s a roll of the dice as to quality . I have worked on such rifles where the parts were all so soft that nothing could be done . Yet still others that were way, way to hard .
I will also tell you something else. Pedresoli wants far more for their locks and parts then what you will pay for a far , FAR superior part .
Their locks run near 75.00 more then jim chambers charges for a very good quality lock . Their barrels run that or more then what you can get a Getz , Rice or most any other custom barrel for . Same way with their stocks , triggers . You name it .
While they sell that production rifle in a 3-500.00 range “which is also going up “
To build that rifle from their parts would cost a person 1500.00 + and you would still not have the quality of a 900.00 semi custom .
Please now don’t think im Knocking you or your gun . Im not . I just want you to know what you maybe in for . If you read the forum you will find a lot of folks that are and have been more then happy with their Hatfield rifles.
Just understand that the ones that come to me . Do so because they are having issues .
Hopefully yours is a good one and the questions your asking , are being ask for your knowledge , not because you are having any serious issues . I hope that’s the case .
If its not then I would suggest the following .
First and foremost, keep in mind that you may have to replace the lock .
Then jump in . learn all you can . Try and fix what you can . Knowledge is worth far more then any $ amount that can be placed on it .
If it comes to replacing parts or sending it to someone . Then keep a close eye on the actual cost vs. replacement with a quality lock . IMO once you start reaching the 50-60% cost mark , your better off with a new lock . But only you can make that decision. Because as I said the value of knowledge added to the pride of doing your own work , far exceeds any monetary value .
Anyway . This is WAY long . I hope I have in someway helped you .
Be safe and have a good day
First off, I know better than to think you`d be bad mouthing anyone`s gun because we all aford what we can aford and in comparison of production guns to custom guns is what it is - period. My Hatfield is I believe Pedersoli from some of the research i`ve done having the lock read " HATFIELD WARRENTED " ( and feel free to correct me if i`m wrong ). As far as a replacement lock goes I could get an L&R for $135 and if that`s all the problem i`ll have with this rifle it would be worth that cost. Like you say and i`ll agree totally with why over pay for replacement production gun parts if one could have a custom gun built cheaper. Anyhow, I thank ya Captchee for that rather long bit of info that looks like it took an hour to type :hairy
Post by: Captchee on March 19, 2011, 03:12:01 PM
it was setting right next to the siler i bought also for 70.00 . i seriously thought about buying both . but i was tight on funds and had alot of other parts to get
Post by: burch on March 20, 2011, 01:27:58 PM
Quote from: "Captchee"
boy i if we only had forsight . i could have gooten you an L&r up at Monroe for 70.00. old but un used.
it was setting right next to the siler i bought also for 70.00 . i seriously thought about buying both . but i was tight on funds and had alot of other parts to get
just my luck
