Post by: Puffer on March 03, 2011, 01:58:25 PM
BUT what about carrying & using in the "Fur Trade"?? = YES There are to many well documented references to discount. ( Use references, post inventories, Trade lists Bios,etc.) These cover not only the NWC/HBC ( a req. load out for clerks + ) but other ( Amer. French, native Amer. etc.)
So what did these men carry ?? As with Firearms the references far to often are not specific ( generic terms - Sword .... ) But they fall into 2 Categories, & cover the full "gamut" of "period swords, IMO ( full size & "short swords")
Full size = sabers to Basket hilt Scots +++
Short Swords ( blades of about 25") --
This genre seems to be "perhaps" the most often carried, at least by the NWC/HBC.
This genre is referred to by many names- Hunter,Hanger,Cattoe, Spadroon, Cutlass etc
Although all the blades were short, the were both straight & curved.
Here is an idea of the "hilts" ( plainer styles) & seem to "cross over to other "styles"
Cutlass - Because this is one of the most common ( I have run into & & the inane attrib to solely navy & "pirates" ) The style varied greatly, these 2 a basic. ( think a a weapon & tool (machete)
[albumimg:2ukdukzf]5269[/albumimg:2ukdukzf] [albumimg:2ukdukzf]5270[/albumimg:2ukdukzf]
The others ( some examples) -
[albumimg:2ukdukzf]5268[/albumimg:2ukdukzf] [albumimg:2ukdukzf]5267[/albumimg:2ukdukzf]
I offer this "humbly" & because IMO this is a subject to often over looked or ignored + I oft carry a Sword
Puffer
Post by: Trois Castors on March 03, 2011, 03:03:29 PM
Post by: Puffer on March 03, 2011, 10:04:47 PM
Quote from: "Trois Castors"
Do you know what sword(s) were on the tradelists?I have been wondering about this for a while now......a picture to go with the name or description would help to, if possible.
Trying to track down The type of swords that were shipped for trade is very difficult. ( been try to figure it out for some time.)
The reason being that the "co.s" are not descriptive. they simply, say x# cutlasses, hangers, swords,etc. Just as they often do for fire arms.( trade guns, fussils, rifles, pistols etc.) As an exaple, a manifest list exists ( 1835 for a shipment to the Amer. Fr Co. "Upper Missouri Outfit" )Simply Lists 20 brass mounted swords.
Add to this, the records of the NWC are VERY incomplete & the HBC are arduous to obtain.
Plus the few existing "native swords"as well as those that supposedly carried by "trappers ( other than NWC/HBC employees) are VARIED & often seem to have been "hilted from the "vast # of bulk blades shipped.
Here is where I am - ( taken from my research ( guesstimates )
Discounting Swords for employees, & native dignitaries, acquired the plainest,, most readily avail. ( surplus mil., contract buys etc.)
1. the NWC - A mix of French, & others ( Brit, Euro etc) in all categories.
2. HBC - Brit mainly, but some seem to have been Euro contracted )
3. American - ????
So @ this time MHO = If you are a "native", a "trapper"( so called "free" or emigree etc ) then what ever you like as long as it fits the period. ( prior to the date you are portraying, with in 50 years or so)
If I were doing a display, or portraying the above in the 1800s t0 1830s, here are the hilts I would use.
Saber (light cav FRENCH) - ( note blade could be straight ot curved )
French - (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/ACCESORY/SWORD%20HILTS/French1802sabre_2.jpg)
But plain steel or brass
( light cav. Brit) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/ACCESORY/SWORD%20HILTS/britsaberhilts01zh3.jpg)
Generic - (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/ACCESORY/SWORD%20HILTS/P1010003-1.jpg)
An antler handled " bulk blade" (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/ACCESORY/SWORD%20HILTS/CopyofCopyofIMG_0077.jpg)
Short swords - same "Hilts" + simple generic "cutlass style"
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/ACCESORY/SWORD%20HILTS/NuemannCutlass023.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/ACCESORY/SWORD%20HILTS/therionarms_c1102a.jpg)
OR this "Hanger/cottee (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/ACCESORY/SWORD%20HILTS/display_993_AMERICAN_REVOLUTIONARY_WAR_OFFICERS_SILVER_HILTED_HANGER_633904669486650001.jpg)
Again, this is open to interp. ( a couple of years ago & 2xs since, quarried a site that IMO, have some of the best "experts" on Swords about "Fur trade swords" but, although some great input ( much of which I shared here) they could not give "difinative" answers. So ....
Puffer
Post by: Trois Castors on March 03, 2011, 10:45:57 PM
Post by: Uncle Russ on March 04, 2011, 12:02:05 AM
Soooo much to learn, soooo little time!
Still yet, I find many of your posts informative, and well written.
You're never one to say anything is absolutely wrong, but offer instead a nice alternative backed by your own research, which I personally know can go very deep.
I just want you to know that such offerings are most appreciated by the "unclean", the unknowing.
Keep up the good work!
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Roaddog on March 04, 2011, 08:47:56 AM
Post by: Riley/MN on March 04, 2011, 09:54:33 AM
Post by: Puffer on March 04, 2011, 03:49:19 PM
No, I have NO idea of pattern/style ( not a Mason & what little I have seen, from this time period range ALL OVER ( medieval, mil etc, etc. Plain to VERY ornate )
Puffer
Post by: Captchee on March 04, 2011, 07:27:07 PM
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/TMA/BlackfootDogChildwithwife-samuraisw.jpg)
Post by: Trois Castors on March 04, 2011, 08:26:06 PM
Quote from: "Puffer"
Masonic Swords That's right folks MASONIC SWORDS :lol:I get the Man at Arms magazine and they are sometimes in it and also "Oddfellow"swords.
Post by: Uncle Russ on March 04, 2011, 08:43:41 PM
What do you sword people say?
And, maybe you could elaborate just a little bit on that picture.
That chain running to the butt of the pistol, which appears to be a single-six with its "plow type handles"?
A "Sam Brown" shoulder belt with a double loop holster?
A really striking picture begging for answers from the uninitiated.
Puffer, Trois Castors, since you two seem to know a lot about this, have you got any answers?
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Trois Castors on March 04, 2011, 09:44:39 PM
Post by: Captchee on March 05, 2011, 09:38:57 AM
The sword looks like a Japanese Samurai Katana because that’s what it is
The photo is of Dog child/ Duck Necklace and his wife “Only Handsome Woman “ from 1890
Dog child was a scout for the North West Mounted Police . His job was to protect the borders of the Blood Reserve, checking for trespassers and illegal liquor traffic.
Many folks have speculated that maybe this was a prop . But myself I don’t think so as there are other photos of the cabin of Dog Child , showing the sword on the wall .
Where he got it ? Boy that’s anyone’s guess . By the late 1800’s the Japanese had some
Large villages in western Canada . By 1907 Japanese high ranking emissaries were visiting .
but we also should remember that the Japanese had recourded contact here as early as 1610 .
Post by: Uncle Russ on March 05, 2011, 10:04:33 AM
Guess that certainly explains the looks of things that may seem somewhat out of place, for that day and time, and it explains, with very good reason, just why they appear that way.
Being a Scout for the NWMP certainly explains the Sam Brown Shoulder Belt, as well as the lanyard to the Pistol butt, and who knows....he may well have won that Samurai sword in a Poker Game of high stakes.
I, for one, can certainly see the value in such a piece.
He also seemed proud of his wife and provided for her right nicely, which may be why she carried herself so well, IMO.
As I said before.....a really striking picture, a proud man and woman in every sense.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Fletcher on March 05, 2011, 10:56:05 AM
I have a personna that dates back to the German 'Pfeilmacher' family of the 1240's - on to England where we became the 'House of Fletcher' (Bow and Arrow trade Guild) from there on to the new world in the early 1800's. I went west with a great interest in studying the archery eqipment and techniques of the Native Tribes.
That said - I have a cool coat of arms shield and English broad sword of the King Richard era. If I also carried my 'papers', do you think that would be acceptable to display outside my Marquis at Trade shows and Rondys - even super primitives???
Post by: Captchee on March 05, 2011, 07:00:38 PM
i have beent to a couple evens where folks dressed as romans . i dont know that anyone said anything to them . but there was alot of complaining going on behind the seens .
even with my eastern persona i am often challaged . then have to exsplain that many of the fur brigades and even small trapper groups were hiring eastern natives as scouts .
for the most part these folks were hated by the plains people hear in the west .
i also know that alot of folks at the buckskinner events have issues with people dressing colonial . again this if IMO from a total lack of historical knowlage concerning that time .
Post by: Puffer on March 05, 2011, 07:32:10 PM
Puffer
Post by: Puffer on March 09, 2011, 04:48:38 PM
Although, not tech. a sword ( a sword bayonet - Baker Rifle)
I have & do carry as a Sword only ( hanger style - blade is 23"long & 1 1/4" wide)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/ACCESORY/SWORD%20HILTS/bayonet-baker_1.jpg)
Puffer
Post by: Forager on June 16, 2011, 12:57:52 PM
Quote from: "Captchee"
See now Russ your eyes still work .
The sword looks like a Japanese Samurai Katana because that’s what it is
The photo is of Dog child/ Duck Necklace and his wife “Only Handsome Woman “ from 1890
Dog child was a scout for the North West Mounted Police . His job was to protect the borders of the Blood Reserve, checking for trespassers and illegal liquor traffic.
Many folks have speculated that maybe this was a prop . But myself I don’t think so as there are other photos of the cabin of Dog Child , showing the sword on the wall .
Where he got it ? Boy that’s anyone’s guess . By the late 1800’s the Japanese had some
Large villages in western Canada . By 1907 Japanese high ranking emissaries were visiting .
but we also should remember that the Japanese had recourded contact here as early as 1610 .
Okay, now that's just cool.
An RCMP-enabled, native/Res scout, with the RCMP gear and a katana.
Very, very bad juju to pick a fight with.