Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on October 20, 2011, 09:58:02 AM
:th up
Post by: sse on October 20, 2011, 10:05:14 AM
Bottom line, if I was looking at a Miroku-built muzzlelaoder, I wouldn't be worried about the quality.
Post by: Bigsmoke on October 20, 2011, 10:44:43 AM
Post by: Stormrider51 on October 20, 2011, 06:01:40 PM
Storm
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on October 20, 2011, 09:05:24 PM
Post by: Stormrider51 on October 20, 2011, 09:18:42 PM
Storm
Post by: bluelake on October 20, 2011, 10:01:46 PM
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on October 21, 2011, 09:43:52 AM
Post by: snake eyes on October 22, 2011, 08:07:35 AM
Asian part. Spain maybe and Italy absolutely.With no disrespect to
Blue Lake,I hope I can keep it that way.IMO
snake-eyes
Post by: BEAVERMAN on October 22, 2011, 02:23:13 PM
Post by: bluelake on October 22, 2011, 07:14:25 PM
Quote from: "snake eyes"
Guys, I have bevy of muzzleloading guns,but not one as far as I know has an
Asian part. Spain maybe and Italy absolutely.With no disrespect to
Blue Lake,I hope I can keep it that way.IMO
snake-eyes
None taken. Each person has their preferences; personally, my preference is for whatever looks and feels nice and shoots well. Ironically, the "Korean" matchlock I brought back to Korea--as far as I know--doesn't have an Asian part in it, as it was made by an American gunsmith in the States.
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on October 24, 2011, 07:45:07 PM
I,m still doing research into documents that woud indicate wether or not they deserve the attitude by some that their construction is much inferior to most other MLs . The instances of severe failure thus-far, has been with other Mfgs. and the investigations into these instances showed that the user/shooter had been at fault in the loading process. Most were caused by the use of smokless powder.
Post by: Loyalist Dave on October 26, 2011, 10:58:59 AM
Browning shotguns made by Miroku got the same treatment at first. Not every Japanese made black powder gun was made by Miroku. I have a "horse pistol" made in Japan that I bought for next to nothing at a yard sale. It could be fired, if the lock was any good. The barrel I am using to make a renaissance hand-gonne, with a war hammer on the other end of the stock. The barrel is pretty good, but the rest of the pistol..., not so much.
LD
Post by: Uncle Russ on October 26, 2011, 03:40:32 PM
The begin with, the Japanese have the very best steel technology in the world, bar none.
And, they have held that distinction since the end of WW II when the re-building of Japan began....
Their successful use of manufacturing principals leans heavily toward the KISS principal, and many of their less expensive products display this fact, in spades.
FWIW; I have had this very same discussion several times over with Bob Green, who was the Metallurgist instructor, and head of student placement, at Trinidad Junior State College (Gunsmithing) in Trinidad , Colorado.
Bob was and still is a recognized subject matter expert in this field.
(Trinidad Gunsmithing is not to be confused with C.S.T. or Colorado School of Trades in Lakewood, Colorado. The Gunsmithing school I attended and taught for a couple of years....I met Bob while attending several of his classes in Trinidad)
Anyway, here is something of Bob's version, as I can best recall, as to how he felt this all came about............which I can find no fault with. In fact, I favor his interpretation.
Some time in the mid 1960's Turner Kirkland of Dixie Gun Works bought and sold a Box Car load of Ultra Hi, Black Powder rifles and smooth bore guns.
The number was likely in the thousand's. Many of these sold for as little as $70 delivered to your door.....this about the "cheapest" you could buy any muzzleloader for back in those days.
I have one of the early models in .69 caliber and has had thousands, if not ten thousand rounds fired through it and it is as good today as it was when I bought it.
These first guns bought by DGW were manufactured by Miroku of Japan, and many were marked, "Made in Kochi, Japan"....please note the word Kochi.
Then later on, in the early to mid to late 1970's Howa Machinery Co. Ltd came on the scene with a look alike of the very same guns that were being made by Miroku and sold by DGW...in fact, they looked so much alike you had to remove the full length stock to find all the markings and correctly identify the gun.
But the big selling point was.....they cost even less!
Special Order, Big shipment, Overstocked, all the buzz words of the day were put into the marketing and selling of these new guns now made by Howa.
They were new, they were relatively inexpensive, and America was coming full bore into the Muzzleloading age, for the second or third time because of the Bicentennial.
As far as readily identifying one from the other, the one thing that could be fairly easily read on this 'new / less expensive' rifle was alongside the barrel, where the barrel touched the stock, and there was the words Made in Aichi, Japan....Aichi Japan is where Howa Machinery Co. Ltd is located, not Miroku.
Few, if any took time to remove these barrels from their full stocks until later on in life when something broke or wore, and that's when the distinction started to show up.
There is very little difference in the words Made in Kochi Japan and Made in Aichi Japan, especially with the last three letters being "chi"....something easily overlook, yet easily connected with the magic but deadly words of Made in Japan.
It all got started with two guns that look very much alike, both made in Japan, but made by two different companies.
In the late 1970's / early 1980's Howa became a "quality" recognized name in the industry and things changed....all for the better. They replaced hundreds on hundreds of parts for DGW, free of charge, and Dixie Gun Works passed many such offers on the public. (The one thing I personally remember was the fact that the frizzen on their flinters were not hard enough, and something about the front or rear sight being too soft..
Anyway, their free replacement was a very honorable act by both the Manufacture and the Distributor.
Although Howa Machinery has been making firearms, quality centerfire firearms, since before1940, their first few shipments of Muzzleloaders to the US were somewhat less than desirable in quality than that what the new fad of muzzleloaders were demanding. The problems were quickly corrected and Howa now builds some of the finest firearms in the world...Including such names as Weatherby, Mossberg, S&W 1500 Rifles (same thing, identically, as Howa 1500 rifle) etc, etc.
IMO, both Miroku and Howa now build excellent guns. The have both built quality guns for decades. In today's very competitive market, if you don't built a quality gun, muzzleloader or otherwise, you are soon to find yourself without a job.....many foreign countries have tried hard to equal Japans gun build technology, and just as many have failed miserably.
This is the story as I know it. Those of you that own and shoot old Ultra-Hi's, and other Japanese made guns will certainly have your own opinion, and I suspect that is exactly as it should be.
Personally, I really like my old .69 flinter , mostly because it is as dependable as the day is long. It is, by today's standards, ugly enough to be loved only by its mother, but nonetheless, it's still a great old gun, with many years left in it.
Just my thoughts on this very controversial subject.
Uncle Russ..
Post by: bluelake on October 26, 2011, 06:40:21 PM
Slightly OT--Regarding differences in Japanese quality, early Type 99 Arisaka 7.7mm rifles used in WWII were excellent and one of the best-made rifles of the era; those made towards the end of the war were terrible (called "last ditch" rifles). The one my father brought home after the war is of the excellent quality type and is one of the few non-muzzleloaders I own and shoot.
Post by: snake eyes on October 27, 2011, 06:54:41 AM
Great information! Thanks for posting it.
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on October 27, 2011, 04:16:33 PM
I would like to thank all who have coome forward with their evaluations , and those who may yet step up To the plate.
A great big Gold Star to Russ for His contribution. I knew if I didn,t reply to his e-mail he couldn,t stand to sit on his thumbs.
Heh Heh old age and tretchery gets em every time .
Post by: Ironhand on November 07, 2011, 10:15:01 PM
Post by: Gordon H.Kemp on November 08, 2011, 10:37:22 AM
Post by: Ironhand on November 08, 2011, 05:15:45 PM
I used a light load from the Lyman manual for the 16 gauge. It was a lot of fun to shoot. I always thought I should have a proper one made, one that was safe.
The sear was so soft that it wore out pretty quick and I didn't think it was worth fixing.
Ironhand
Post by: Three Hawks on November 17, 2011, 08:21:12 PM
If memory serves Ultra-Hi evaporated into the ether many years ago.
Three Hawks