Post by: Stormrider51 on June 23, 2012, 12:03:07 AM
John
Post by: ridjrunr on June 23, 2012, 12:29:50 AM
With my 12 ga. @ 20 yrds, my cushion wad goes right through thin plastic type corrigated cardboard. My pattern is ok, just not what I am used to in a shotgun. It patterned ok on turkey, head/ neck silhouettes.
Post by: mario on June 23, 2012, 02:36:50 AM
Quote from: "Stormrider51"
I've heard it opined that it is the over powder and cushion wad "blowing through" the shot. That doesn't make sense. In fact it would seem to defy the laws of physics. The wads have less weight than the shot column and a large frontal area. The wads should fall behind very quickly thanks to aerodynamic drag.
One must remember that, initially, they are traveling at the same rate of speed. 10 ft from the muzzle, that's a different story, but right out of the muzzle, the over powder wad is pushing against the shot. I think that it starts a chain of events right at the beginning that just magnifies with distance.
In my guns, the simple fact is, cushion wad=doughnut, no cushion wad=no doughnut.
Mario
Post by: No Rod on June 23, 2012, 09:20:45 AM
Post by: Captchee on June 24, 2012, 09:40:07 AM
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 24, 2012, 01:16:02 PM
John
Post by: Feltwad on June 24, 2012, 02:06:10 PM
Feltwad
A flint lock will not secure a chicken house door
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 26, 2012, 09:00:38 PM
Thanks again,
John
Post by: Ironhand on June 27, 2012, 12:12:05 AM
Used to do this to tighten patterns when I competed in BP trap.
Ironhand
Post by: Feltwad on June 27, 2012, 02:49:14 AM
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
Post by: Buzzard on June 27, 2012, 08:18:24 AM
Post by: pathfinder on June 27, 2012, 09:35:17 AM
Their website; http://www.lansingmuzzleloadinggunclub.com (http://www.lansingmuzzleloadinggunclub.com)
Post by: Captchee on June 27, 2012, 09:37:44 AM
Quote from: "Ironhand"
You might try reducing the ratio of powder to shot. Either less powder or more shot. Probably less powder.
Used to do this to tighten patterns when I competed in BP trap.
Ironhand
yep i have found the same thing .
more powder to shot will open the patern . less powder to shot will help tighten it up
Post by: Feltwad on June 27, 2012, 11:55:27 AM
Feltwad
A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
Post by: Captchee on June 27, 2012, 03:00:45 PM
Post by: Loyalist Dave on June 28, 2012, 09:29:35 AM
The other reason for this hypothesis was in reading Forsythe's The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles , he covers why the round ball from a smooth barrel deflects sooner in flight than when fired from a rifle barrel that imparts a controlled torque, and the same forces would apply to a shot column fired on the horizontal..., in fact because the shot column is composed of multiple pieces of shot, the column will tend to react to the tendency to be "unbalanced" more than a solid ball, and this unbalanced state when the shot is fired, imparts torque or rotational movement to the shot as it approaches the muzzle, thus blowing the pattern.
The reduction of the torque is accomplished, or less amplified, I thought by reducing the powder to reduce the velocity, or by increasing the amount of shot which increased the mass, and reduced the velocity. The torque or tendency to rotate, was further reduced then and today, by the use of "gooved" or "straight rifling" to thus correct or eliminate the torque, and the modern use of choke tubes that employ grooves to obtain a tighter pattern over identical choke tubes that do not, further point to torque and not wads blowing or donutting patterns..., or so I had thought... for folks with donut pattern problems, when using the same load but switching to a same gauged smoothbore that has a gooved barrel report elimination of the pattern problem. Also when using the same ammuntion but adding a grooved choke tube in a modern shotgun, eliminate the blown patterns. IF it was the wads and not torque, the wads should still blow through..., gooved or not grooved, torque reduced or not....
..., but if there is photographic evidence showing the blow through of wads, then perhaps torque is a very minor factor, with the wads are the real culprit, and the modern choke tubes with the grooves cause the wads to not pass through the shot, which is really how they help? But what about grooved barrels which impart less friction to the surface area (in theory) of the wads than a plain barrel..., why do they stop donut patterns...?
How does reducing the velocity suddenly cause the wad to sufficiently slow down to not blow through the pattern? I mean if you launch the shot and wad at 1100 fps and that causes the wad to pass through the shot pattern, then how does reducing the MV to 800 fps not cause the wad to pass through the shot pattern? The wad must pass through the column very soon after exit from the barrel, otherwise the pattern would be so wide that the amount of shot impacted by the wad would be minimal. Deceleration ratios should be a constant for shot and wad at either speed, 1100 fps or 800 fps... ??
Or wait, is the air compressed quicker, thus increasing the friction at a higher MV?
AAAAAAAGGGGH! :cry: I should've paid more attention in physics class.
LD
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 28, 2012, 10:42:37 AM
You may be correct about rotational torque. It certainly makes more sense than the idea that the wad is blowing through the pattern. The light weight and large frontal area of the wad compared to the shot column would seem to prevent that from happening. The photos I saw only revealed the donut hole in the shot pattern, not the wad traveling through the pattern. And yet several others on this forum say they corrected the problem by eliminating the cushion wad. It has me scratchin' my head.
SR
Post by: Captchee on June 28, 2012, 12:02:36 PM
in the main time here are 3 photos to consider .
Note that one of these photos was taken at the muzzle .
The other to are an un disclosed distance from the muzzle . These photos are also from a choked bore having BP paper cartridges fired through it .
IMO we would see an even greater spread of the shot as it leaves the muzzle of a cylinder bore .
also note that at the point these photos were taken the wad was beginning to move into the shot as noted by the spread of the shot as well as some of the shot itself being back along the outer edge of the wad ..
again i will have to do some digging but i recall having other Greener photos that show even more dramatic happenings where the wad is well through the shot column . One is even of a shot cup rotating and throwing the shot as it falls away.
note the effect the wad is having on spreading the shot column. While the over the powder cards are lagging and falling away . The wad is still very much in contact with the shot .
Here is what im thinking actually happens . I could be wrong of course .
What I think happens is that the shot column creates a venture effect holding the wad for a longer time , up against the shot . As the shot starts to spread the wad is carried even more . At least until such time as its weight and resistance pulls it way. Until that happens though it appears the wad does effect the shot by pushing it wider as the leading edge of the column encounters resistance and spreads
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/SXS/wadonshot3.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/SXS/wadeffect1.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/SXS/effectsofwad2.jpg)
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 29, 2012, 01:03:30 AM
Post by: Captchee on June 29, 2012, 10:03:39 AM
its IMO also note worthy to mention that open holes can also be contributed to whats called shot clumping . IE because of the type of shot , make up of the load , type of wads , cards... a given type of shot can clump up into tighter sections . McPherson mentions this in his writings .
but here is the thing . we can talk about who says what all day . it doesnt change the fact that the information has to relate to the shooter specifically . going out and shooting a couple patterns isn’t going to tell you much . you need to shoot several patterns and then compare those as an average .
F your consistently seeing the holes in the pattern , in relatively the same locations . Then start working on your loading . Try dropping the wad and see what happens . From my experience dropping the wad or going to a softer wad often results in the holes in the pattern going away . Reducing the powder charge to shot ratio will tighten the pattern. More times then not , adding more powder to shot , opens the pattern up “cylinder bore application “
With my 12 gage guns, both muzzleloader Cylinder bores and BP paper cartridge ,choked bore . I can tell you that I don’t shoot more the 70 grains of 2F behind 1 ¾ oz of #7, graphite and they pattern wonderfully out to 30 yards .
at what time does the wad pass through ?
well as i said greener showed some test that the wad actualy was more through the column / IMO this would produce a donut type of pattern . if however your just getting holes in the pattern then the case could be made that the wad is disrupting the patern enough to cause the holes . again if you drop the wad and find that those holes go away OR that the center of your pattern is now more full . what does that lead you to believe?
Post by: pathfinder on June 29, 2012, 02:39:41 PM
Seem's I'm missing A LOT closer than before!
Post by: Captchee on June 29, 2012, 05:44:29 PM
Post by: Andy54Hawken on July 01, 2012, 01:38:06 PM
Thanks for sharing,
Andy
Post by: pathfinder on July 01, 2012, 02:45:17 PM
Post by: Andy54Hawken on July 01, 2012, 03:03:03 PM
Yesterday I went out with my northwest gun. Did some shooting with round ball and also with shot.
Did ok with round ball out to 50 yards.
Need to work on a better load or just get more time on the gun to hit more with shot....
Some good ideas on this thread to try out.
Andy
Post by: Stormrider51 on July 01, 2012, 08:29:44 PM
Quote from: "Andy54Hawken"
Always something to fool with, truer words were never spoken.
Yesterday I went out with my northwest gun. Did some shooting with round ball and also with shot.
Did ok with round ball out to 50 yards.
Need to work on a better load or just get more time on the gun to hit more with shot....
Some good ideas on this thread to try out.
Andy
Glad you found it useful. I plan to do some patterning using different wad combos and see what happens. I'll report it here. One of the great things about the internet is that there is a tremendous amount of info available on just about any subject. Like Path said, there's a bunch of old greybeards in the association with many years of experience and a willingness to share it. Another great thing is that I haven't dealt with anyone in the TMA who I wouldn't want to share a hunting camp with. I can't say that about all the muzzleloading forums. You might consider joining. It's only $16 and you are helping to keep the association, and the forum, going.
Storm
Post by: sse on July 02, 2012, 11:12:30 AM
Quote
Another great thing is that I haven't dealt with anyone in the TMA who I wouldn't want to share a hunting camp with.
Post by: Loyalist Dave on July 06, 2012, 08:09:49 AM
GAH! :rt th
LD
Post by: Loyalist Dave on July 06, 2012, 08:16:35 AM
I wonder from the first photo if it in some or all cases might be the opposite of "blowing through"..., say upon detonation, the inertia needs to be overcome, but in that process depending on the wad material - say a lubed felt wad, a significant portion of the shot gets imbedded in the surface of the wad, perhaps a layer into the wad and a layer of shot into that first layer... just enough so that upon exit from the muzzle..., those two layers of shot are retarded/slowed down just a tad, and those pellets then drop lower in the pattern due to lower MV than the rest of the pattern, and thus causes the donut???
LD
Post by: pathfinder on July 06, 2012, 09:34:03 AM
Post by: rickevans on July 06, 2012, 09:54:27 AM
Post by: Captchee on July 06, 2012, 11:01:43 AM
Quote from: "Loyalist Dave"
Thanks for the photos. I'm gonna need to find a guy at the ATF lab with a high speed camera and convince him it's important to test this and get a photo of the wad actually passing through the shot. (The lab is right down the street from me).
GAH! :rt th
LD
OR , better yet , start collecting the writings from the likes of Greener and Pope .
be on the look out for old Lyman shotgun books even if they are about breech loaders . the reason is that many of these also carry large sections on BP both cartradge and muzzleloading .
they will give you tons of useful date to work with and consider .
i cant seem to find the photos i wanted but here is a couple for you as well as a slow motion clay shoot video . now most of the shots in this vedio are with shot cups from modern guns . but there are are a coupel without cups around the ,49 mark and further into the video .
but notice also , how long the shot gup stays with the shot even when it opens up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOJYYwmoA8o
yet another fun video . granted modern guns . but take notice of the diffrence between the use of shot cups and thos with just wads and wads with cups
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NjLIc44H_U&feature=related
some other fun photos
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/SXS/gun-target.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/SXS/targetbreak.jpg)
annnnnnnnnnd
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/SXS/slow-motion-shotgun-shell.jpg)
Post by: Stormrider51 on July 07, 2012, 11:15:16 AM
Storm
Post by: Gambia on July 08, 2012, 12:13:18 AM
Quote from: "Stormrider51"
I'm impressed by how far those shot cups flew before falling away. The opening petals or arms must create an incredible amount of drag and I'd have thought they would fall away within a few feet of the muzzle much as a patch does from a round ball. Still sitting around waiting for USPS to deliver my smoothie. Then I can start some patterning tests.Any tests scheduled for tomorrow or are you still waiting?
Storm
William
Post by: Stormrider51 on July 08, 2012, 12:59:18 AM
Just sent you an email. I was hoping the smoothie would arrive today but no such luck. Looks like it will be Monday. Plus I still need to come up with some shot. Regardless, you are welcome to come out to cast some balls.
Storm
Post by: Gambia on July 08, 2012, 03:03:14 AM