Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Shooting Traditional Firearms and Weapons => General Interest => Topic started by: sse on November 28, 2012, 10:11:40 AM
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Got a buddy who is brand new to this! I have to start with him from the beginning. Somebody gave him a New Englander. I assume it has a 1:48 twist.
If he says he wants to shoot either maxi-hunters or maxi-balls, I may tell him I can't help him, since I haven't shot a maxi-hunter in years, since I sold a T/C .50 cal Hawken.
Anyway, I'd like a suggested patch-thickness/ball diam combination for him, plus a starting load. If he insists on shooting a B/P substitute, will likewise tell him I can't help him. (I know, I'm harsh...LOL)
What say youz guys...? Thanks in advance!
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I checked the TC site and found their extensive manual in PDF format that one can print.
http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/no ... r_Guns.pdf (http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manuals/noncurrent/Shooting_TC_Side_Lock_Black_Powder_Guns.pdf)
Go to page #70. They recommend a .490 RB and several patches to chose from their in product line.
Starting load? 75-80 grains 3FFF.
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Thanks, Rick...! I still have that manual! Thing is, I never followed the advice in there, but I suppose for starters it will give some good perspective.
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I have a Renegade that I use a mini ball cast bullet - similar to the Lee REAL but is a Lyman
I think it is around 300 gr
I shoot 70 to 90 gr FFF
Start with 70 gr, should be safe and get a good idea of how it shoots.
I would think the 70 gr is plenty to get deer or Black Bear out to 100 yd,
but I shoot 90 gr when expecting a bit longer shot and bigger animal.
Make sure he shoots at various distance and write down the performance
(hopefully only bullet drop will be the issue)
To tell the truth I have not hunted this one for a number of years because
I like to play in the woods with my Hawken with the 31" 1:60 twist and PRB
but I know that load works
In fact I would be willing to sell/trade the Renegade to get another youth rifle
(similar to CVA Bobcat or Traditions hunter) with short barrel and single trigger
.50 cal
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When I had a New Englander, it was .50 cal. I used a .490 ball in a .010 patch lubed with either spit or Ol' Thunder. I believe the powder charge I settled on was 75 grains of Ffg and RWS Red Label caps.
Using that loading, I paid for the gun several times over in prize winnings. It really shot fine.
Fletcher, is that a .50 or .54 Renegade?
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.50 cal. I used a .490 ball in a .010 patch lubed with either spit or Ol' Thunder. I believe the powder charge I settled on was 75 grains of Ffg and RWS Red Label caps.
Thanks for that, just what the doctor ordered.
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That's a purty thin patch with just a .490 ball... Sure it wasn't a .015...?? Thanks, and pardon my nerve for asking...LOL
Can only find .018's and .015's...
P.S. Especially with such a thin lube...
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Well, Jimmy Veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, here is my reasoning for using a .010 patch in the ol' T/C. How deep is the rifling in a T/C 1:48 barrel. Maybe .006" on a windy November day with the rain coming down? Always seemed a thin patch worked better with shallow rifling, and a thick patch with deep grooves.
Seems to me that when I was selling Ox Yoke products, they had .005, .010, .015 and .020 in plain cotton patches and .017 and .022(?) in ticking. They came in various lube choices as well, dry, oiled, Wonder Lube and at one time, silicon. Then we had product from a fellow in Colorado and he had several other thicknesses to choose from in diameters for each caliber: .45, .50, .54 etc. Our patching area took up two full set of inventory shelving. Good grief, it were something.
John
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Bigsmoke
The Renegade is .50
I agree that the thin patch is more accurate in the T/C
I use .495 ball and .010 patch in my .50 T/C (3 of them)
that's why I will sell the Renegade!
and .535 ball with .010 patch in my .54 T/C Hawken
Definitely can tell the difference in shot group size
My son has 2 Lymans one a .50 and the other a .54
The jury is still out on ball vs. patch size on that brand
{added - .490 with .015 patch or .495 ball with .015 patch
or .535 with .010 vs .530 with .015}
Both seem to shoot well with either combo and ....
'on any given Sunday' - one seems better than the other
go figure
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Thanks for the comments you guys, makes a lot of sense.
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My bud procrastinated and now tomorrow he's coming over for me to look at this thing and somehow un-charge it.
Anyway, my other bud who gave it to him says there's a conical in it and a probable charge of pyrodex. My thinking is it might be awful hard to pull a conical...??? Best thing to do is maybe shoot it out, after making sure the nipple, threads, etc...are sound.
Before attempting to pull it, I could dump some water down to ease the friction, etc, but then if I can't pull it, the charge will be useless in shooting out the lead.
Thoughts from anybody would be appreciated...
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So this has been sitting for over a year with an unknown charge in it? I think I would be inclined not to try to shoot it out. How about an air compressor or one 'a them CO2 gizmos...
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don't have one...
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If the nipple is OK, or I swap it out with a new one...and I check the bore to make sure there isn't a mouse down there, what is a concern...?
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If the nipple is OK, or I swap it out with a new one...and I check the bore to make sure there isn't a mouse down there, what is a concern...?
My concern would be
Anyway, my other bud who gave it to him says there's a conical in it and a probable charge of pyrodex.
I would wanna be REALLY sure what is in there before pullin the trigger....
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The other buddy who told me that is reliable...the one who's got the rifle isn't sure about much...
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HA - Well, if you're sure, go for it! Pull the nipple & put a little powder under it if you can fit some....
I have found that once you drill a hole through a projectile with a ball puller, your options for shooting it out are greatly reduced!
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Still like to know if anyone has successfully pulled one...???
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Pulled more RBs than I can remember... But I've never tried a conical & don't think I would :)
Al
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I'm pretty sure it wasn't dry-balled...not being a gun smith, I think putting some powder under the nip is the best alternative. Another, question, IF it had been dry-balled, I wonder if a small amount of powder under the nipple has enough oomph to push out a big ole conical...
I shot a few maxi-hunters out of the .50 T/C Hawken I used to have, but never ran into this problem with it...didn't keep it long enough.
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If a little powder doesn't push it out, it may push it enough to get more powder in the next time. Make sure you re-seat the conical.
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Another trick you could try would be to replace the nipple with a grease zerk and pump grease into it until it lets go. Never tried it myself, but it is 'spost ta work... must be a mess ta clean up!
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Well, got a look at it today. It's loaded alright. The bore looked pretty bad, so I cleaned out a fair bit of rust using WD-40, patches, rubbing alcohol. Then I ran a brush down and ended up pulling out quite a bit of fowling.
Decided to leave in some WD-40 for a few days, then I'll patch it out, maybe even brush it again, if necessary. Will say after some effort, checked the bore and it looks pretty good! That was nice to see.
Meanwhile, removed and replaced the nipple. The one in there was rusted up pretty good, but after some cleaning, still screwed in and out fairly well, but for good measure a new nipple was installed, anyway. The snail/drum threads don't look too bad at all so I don't really see any safety issue with shooting out the conical.
The original RR is cracked, too, but I think replacements should be available on line. May have a trip to the range on Saturday, unless I manage to get out deer hunting again.
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Update...went to the range yesterday. Capped her and she shot just fine, no delay, hangfire, nuthin...that New Englander is a nice firearm. Nice hunk of walnut on it, too. I wonder what kind of accuracy it'll get. I fixed the guy up with some lubed conicals for when he starts shooting, but I'm hoping to get him switched over to PRB's...
At home, went through and cleaned it out very well....far as I can see the bore is fine. pretty easy to clean, as well, with only one shot through it and the short barrel...it's like a carbine.
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Unless your buddy wants to go elk hunting with it, I see no real reason to shoot conicals in it. More trouble and expense than it's worth.
Keeping a reasonable charge with those New Englanders provided good accuracy. I hate to say it, but I have missed the one I used to have. Also had the 12 gauge barrel with it, and it shot a round ball pretty straight at 50 yards as well.
John
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Thanks for chiming in, Mr. powder horn...a/k/a bigsmoke...
Another thing about shooting out the lead, a lubed conical will leave some lead in the bore that will need to addressed...
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well, I loaded the thing with a conical. Thing is, I used the brass handle of the range rod (shaped like a little hammer) to get it started. After it was started, no problem at all ramming it down.
Anybody know of a better was to start it without using a hammer?
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Well, I have a Lyman bullet press/swager and I could force the diameter
down with the right cone. These cones also have lube ports to prelube the
bullets or maxi balls. Short of that I would trade the mold you got for one
known to be a few 1000ths smaller dia. No sense bugering the barrel or
giving yourself a hernia Also send me your address and I will send you a
free sample can of Just Good Lube - a Product of Ol' Thunder Manufacturing
(which I bought from Bigsmoke) I will also throw in a couple maxis of different
style for you to try. I will mic them and note the diameters.
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I have an older model .50 caliber CVA caplock Hawken with a 28-inch barrel (7½ lbs) that I designated as my "target rifle". I found it likes a .490 ball with a .016 denim cotton patch lubed with a mixture of bee's wax and liquid Crisco Oil.
My "target" load is 47 grains of either Swiss or Goex FFFg and will shoot interlocking 3-shot groups at 25 yards off the bench-rest... or 1½-inch, 3-shot groups with most rifle ball's holes "touching" at 50 yards.
I also have an older CVA Hunter-Carbine (24-inch barrel, 6½ lbs) .50 caliber caplock that shoots the 47 grain load as accurately as my "target rifle", but shoots a 70 grain Swiss black powder FFFg load (for deer hunting) with the same accuracy as my target load in either rifle.
This hunting load will shoot through BOTH sides of a whitetail deer's "kill zone" at my self-limited range of 80 yards or less.
I use the Swiss black powder in my hunting load due to it's somewhat higher muzzle velocity compared to the same load of Goex.
I use .490" Hornady swagged lead rifle balls in all loads in both rifles.
Strength and Honor...
Ron T.
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Well, I thought it would be easier for my bud if he just shoved conicals down the gullet, so I loaded a pre-lubed Hornady Great plains hunk of lead. The box is marked .50 cal, so I assume they are slightly smaller than the the bore lands. The weight is indicated to be 385 gr.
Like I say starting it was tough, but the thing goes down easily after it get's past the muzzle. Would have already shot one out, except I ran into a weird issue with nipple/cap size. Took care of that, so she should fire OK tomorrow afternoon. I loaded it with what I figure will be the hunting load, 70g of Goex FFFg. 385 gr is a lot of lead, so I don't think that is overly hot. Almost wish now I would have just used one of the suggestions for a patch and ball...
But, if this thing shoots halfway decent as is, will put the guy on a deer stand and let him have at it.
P.S. Fletch,may take ya up on that.