Traditional Muzzleloading Association

Traditional Firearms => Caplock Long Guns => Topic started by: chuckpa on January 27, 2013, 05:18:59 PM

Title: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: chuckpa on January 27, 2013, 05:18:59 PM: I just completed building a Ohio rifle with a 32 inch barrel in .32 cal. I would like to know if this would be the type of rifle that was also used in Minnesota in the 1840 to 1860 time period. My son and his family live in the Brainerd area and I was thinking about making a rifle for him and his 3 boys.
Thanks for any information you can give me.
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: pathfinder on January 27, 2013, 07:24:26 PM: By that time all gun's were going EVERYWHERE! Most of the "School designations" were dissappearing with the advent of remington supplying hardware stores coast to coast with barrels,hard or soft,and goulsher producing lock's at an alarming rate.

The "Burg's" in Tennessee and Pennsylvania were still producing thier particular style,ie;Bedford,Bean,Gillespie and such,but in other parts of the country, half stock percussion were all the "rage". Inexpensive and quick to build,and VERY accurate and easy to maintain and shoot! Think Early Montgomery Ward's!

I picked up a book"Greasy Cove and Unicoi County Tennessee guns,and they are the '40's-'70's era. REALLY COOL!!!! And,you dont have to worry about all the thread counters "going nuts" on you because you have a bullet board on your pouch strap!
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: Sir Michael on January 29, 2013, 01:41:19 PM: The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly Vol. 44 No. 1 has an interesting piece of correspondence from Alfred Brunson the Indian Agent at LaPonte, WI dtd. January 10, 1843 you might find of value. The relevant part is this. "The guns heretofore sent them are of the poorest quality & often burst the barrel or break the lock in a wee after being in use. These poor things are stamped "Leman, Lancaster, Pa." and "Darenger, Phil." Hundreds of them are now lying useless, or being wrought up by the Smiths into some other article. The old North West English guns are the only kind that can stand them. If Americans cannot or will not make their goods as good as the English, let them keep them, & not impose them on the Indians."

If nothing else this might provide you with an idea of what not to make.
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: Uncle Russ on January 29, 2013, 06:11:29 PM: I would say that is indeed an interesting article!

It appears there was a certain amount of "junk" even amongst the most well know names of the time.
Whether that was by design, or merely incidental, might bring a lot of conjecture but, coming from the Fur Trade Quarterly, I believe it has merit.

Thanks for sharing that little tid-bit Mike!

Uncle Russ..
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: Sir Michael on January 29, 2013, 08:55:11 PM: As I stated in my post. This is was the opinion of the head man on the ground for the United States in WI at the time and was based on his personal observations.

I only brought it up because it illustrated the types of guns circulating in the area in the early 1840s.
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: pathfinder on January 29, 2013, 09:14:27 PM: Yes,thank's Mike! VERY interesting! Because the native indians were "Of the Earth",doesnt mean they weren't sofisticated in being able to see junk for what it was,JUNK!
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: Trois Castors on January 30, 2013, 11:03:22 AM: Quote from: "chuckpa"
My son and his family live in the Brainerd area
Sorry for going off-topic but FARGO is one of my favorite movies.....and now back to to Muzzleloading....
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: Riley/MN on January 30, 2013, 11:58:18 AM: Quote from: "Trois Castors"
Quote from: "chuckpa"
My son and his family live in the Brainerd area
Sorry for going off-topic but FARGO is one of my favorite movies.....and now back to to Muzzleloading....

Have you seen "Escanaba in da Moonlight"?

(pointing the stupid at MI instead of MN here...)
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: chuckpa on January 30, 2013, 02:49:25 PM: I live in pa and I have been able to buy a lot of these half stock rifles from the 1840 period forward. They are inexpensive here because the demand is for full stock rifles. I have heard them called various things from hardware rifles to mountain rifles. A friend of mine calls them Appalachian rifles because he said they were made from Main to Georgia. I have rifles that were also made in Ohio from this period. The more I look at this era I can see that they were made in a lot more places then the Appalachian mountains.

These rifles intrigue me and as pathfinder stated these rifles are very accurate even with rough bores. I think they are a neglected area of interest at least in pa. I have seen the Ohio rifle collectors site. Thanks for all of your input. I will make a Vincent Rifle type for my MN family.
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: Sir Michael on January 30, 2013, 04:20:26 PM: Clean, simple, straightforward. Good choice. I'm not a fan of the but plate but then that's just me. Can you keep us posted on the build from parts to finish? It's always fun to see what people build and getting there is half the fun.
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: chuckpa on January 31, 2013, 05:35:35 PM: I will be happy to do that Sir Michael. I am not a good photographer but I will see what I can do. I will tkae another look at that but plate
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: pathfinder on January 31, 2013, 05:40:45 PM: Quote from: "Riley/MN"
Quote from: "Trois Castors"
Quote from: "chuckpa"
My son and his family live in the Brainerd area
Sorry for going off-topic but FARGO is one of my favorite movies.....and now back to to Muzzleloading....

Have you seen "Escanaba in da Moonlight"?

(pointing the stupid at MI instead of MN here...)

Hunted the property the movie was shot on in Bark River when I lived in "Da Yoop" Cool area,AWSOME cedar swamp's! Two holer was still there last time I was there.
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: Sir Michael on January 31, 2013, 05:44:22 PM: Don't change the but plate on my account. As I said I'm just not a fan. If that is the correct style for the type of gun you're going to build and you want it to be accurate then use it. Don't mind me.
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: chuckpa on February 07, 2013, 07:03:30 PM: I found out that I might be able to purchase an original Michigan rifle for a reasonable price. If I get it I will try to get some pictures on the forum. I may use it as a guide for my Minnesota rifle build.
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: Sir Michael on February 08, 2013, 02:25:03 PM: :hairy
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: chuckpa on February 09, 2013, 05:23:16 PM: I was able to buy the Michigan rifle today. It was made by H.H. Cheney it also has the name E. Sohnautz I can not find anything about him as a gunsmith. The barrel is also marked E. Saginaw. East Saginaw was eventually incorporated into Saginaw. The barrel is marked Remington and it is .40 caliber. As soon as I am able I will get some pictures.
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: Riley/MN on February 09, 2013, 07:59:33 PM: Sounds interesting!
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: Roaddog on February 10, 2013, 06:53:25 AM: Can't wate to see her, sounds sweet.
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: RiverCat on February 10, 2013, 10:04:39 AM: That`s really interesting Chuckpa. I`d love to see some pics.
The farm where I was born and raised is only a stones throw away from the area that used to be East Saginaw. I never knew any gun making activity was done there during the 18th or 19th centuries. Not totally surpised though because Saginaw used to be a thriving center of manufacturing and lumber. Way different from the cesspool of poverty and crime it`s become in the last 40yrs. I left that area about ten years ago and seldom go back.
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: chuckpa on February 10, 2013, 07:31:16 PM: I made a mistake on the spelling of one of the names it should read Schanutz and not sochnautz. I wonder if this was who the rifle was made for?
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: Riley/MN on February 17, 2013, 09:52:24 PM: Got these from Chuck:
Quote
The Rifle with the keyed barrel is the Saginaw Rifle the pinned barrel is the Ohio rifle That I made. The Saginaw rifle has the barrel dove tailed for the key and it is something I have not seen before.
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Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: Roaddog on February 18, 2013, 06:00:44 AM: That Saginaw looks to be in fine shap for a ol' gal. With a Remington barrel on it ya should googal to see when Remington was making that caliber barrel.
The Ohio rifle you made is a seethart Too.
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: chuckpa on February 18, 2013, 08:17:14 AM: Thanks Riley for puting the pictures on the thread. Thank you also for thi kind comments Roaddog. The saginaw rifle is .40 caliber. The barrel is very heavy for that caliber.
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: RiverCat on February 18, 2013, 06:14:51 PM: Very cool. First time I`ve ever seen or heard of a Saginaw rifle other than the M-1 Carbines made there during WWII.
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: chuckpa on February 18, 2013, 06:28:42 PM: I never heard of a Saginaw rifle until this one came up for sale. That gets me closer to a MN rifle where my son lives. Sorry about the old neighborhood but it happens to so many of them. Heck they made a TV series about where I grew up called The Sappranos, and like you I don't care if I ever see it aging, I love my adopted State PA. The half stock era of the 1800's is an era that is ignored here in PA but it fasinates me. I would love to learn more about the rifles.
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: Sir Michael on February 18, 2013, 07:08:01 PM: Nice. Thanks for the pics.
Title: Re: Minnesota Rifles
Post by: chuckpa on February 22, 2013, 04:06:35 PM: I think I will get another Ohio stock and make a few changes so it will be a little closer to the Saginaw rifle and that should do it for a MN rifle.