Post by: huntinguy on April 22, 2013, 01:50:02 PM
Anyone ever tried this? Makes me wonder...
Post by: greyhunter on April 22, 2013, 04:49:46 PM
Post by: Bigsmoke on April 22, 2013, 07:03:37 PM
From what I have heard, the use of a chammois is about the easiest way to go about it.
I really doubt if it is worth the trouble.
YMMV
John
Post by: Fletcher on April 22, 2013, 09:44:05 PM
without a lot of work. I am sure they would work fine with a lightweight natural
oil lube, but pretty spendy. I don't think you would get performance beyond the
time and trouble difference. However - why not try a few just for the romance
and nostalgia. That is one reason so many of us do this foolishness - so we can
try different wild and crazy things :rt th
Post by: mario on April 22, 2013, 11:58:43 PM
The Buffalo Trace: did they dye easter eggs with walnuts or indigo? do you care? (http://buffalotrace1765.blogspot.com/2011/06/did-they-dye-easter-eggs-with-walnuts.html)
Mario
Post by: Fletcher on April 23, 2013, 12:12:04 AM
Post by: RobD on April 23, 2013, 06:15:18 AM
a total waste of inconsistent time for the ml enthusiast of today ... however, obviously one did what one needed to do to get by centuries ago - that doesn't make it the best of ways in those times or today. ymmv.
Post by: greyhunter on April 23, 2013, 07:12:54 AM
Post by: Sir Michael on April 23, 2013, 02:24:40 PM
Here is a link to a blog that belongs to a TMA member although he hasn't posted for some time. It chronicles his work with an original Baker Rifle trying to get it to shoot the way it did when it was still in the British Army. You need to read all of the posts to find the ones that talk about using leather patches. It is quite interesting if you care about original guns and how they were shot when new.
Robin's blog (http://www.robinhewitt.net/blog/)
Post by: huntinguy on April 23, 2013, 05:39:00 PM
Quote from: "Sir Michael"
Yes, leather was used for patching with Baker Rifles.
Here is a link to a blog that belongs to a TMA member although he hasn't posted for some time. It chronicles his work with an original Baker Rifle trying to get it to shoot the way it did when it was still in the British Army. You need to read all of the posts to find the ones that talk about using leather patches. It is quite interesting if you care about original guns and how they were shot when new.
http://www.robinhewitt.net/blog/
That was interesting.
Robin talks about the deep rifling on the Baker rifle and many of the old rifles have deep rifling also. Again, though some had very shallow rifling (or so it would appear).
Why don't we see a greater variation in patch material? I mean, those who are students of the rifle can tell where it originated according to its lines (or at least it's school).
Seems like something is missing... (or it could just be the nitrous-oxide talking... gotta love the dentist visits
)So many things that we do and take for fact, or granted, I wonder about. Yet, some are correct.
It would seem logical that leather would be easier to get than cloth, say for long hunters, trappers and Indians - yet? So many accounts of those groups wearing cloth articles rather than leather and then char-cloth and patching, but....
Post by: Sir Michael on April 23, 2013, 06:46:24 PM
It is frequently referred to a "rag" as in Col. Manningham's 1803 lectures when he states that every rifleman must be instructed in the making of ammunition including the method of covering balls with "rag or leather" and greasing them. Captain Beckwith placed and order in 1801 for linen for use as patching material before leaving for Copenhagen. In 1805 white fustian was used for patching on balls incorporated into paper cartridges. In 1806 Col. De Rottenburg requested ticking and tallow for patching balls. In 1808 and order was placed for fustian and wax for patching. A report on the war in Spain mentions the use of fustian patching.
I also have a diary entry that mentions needing a new shirt because the hem of the shirt had been reduced in length to the man's waist. Now what he was using the hem of his shirt for is anyone's guess but patching is one possibility.
At any rate the use of leather for patching material was common enough for Col. Manningham to allude to it in 1803 as I indicated above.
Post by: Uncle Russ on April 24, 2013, 01:11:15 AM
Quote from: "mario"
One perspective:
The Buffalo Trace: did they dye easter eggs with walnuts or indigo? do you care? (http://buffalotrace1765.blogspot.com/2011/06/did-they-dye-easter-eggs-with-walnuts.html)
Mario
Quote
x patch of brain tan used to fit a .50 ball to a .62
That's a fairly significant "step-up" and personally I think that is where a leather patch would shine most.
I have shot .530 ball in my .56 caliber smoothbore simply by using a double .018 sail cloth patch...and it worked every bit as well as a regular patched .550....go figure.
Also, I intentionally bought a fairly large Chamois Cloth just for patching, but I still have not got myself one of those "round-to-it" thingys so it hasn't happened, yet.
Like many others I have idly passed the time thinking about this, and much like huntinguy, I have often wondered just what part of this picture I was not seeing in proper perspective.
Some things I read and then try, work like clock work!
Others, not so much.
Which, in turn, leads me to wondering what the observer back in the day was really seeing when he reported this or that, and / or just what part of this am I missing?
Is there a compromise? Were things actually a bit different than that which was reported, and was my own attempt actually more or better than what I gave myself credit for?
Does any of this make sense? Is anyone still with me?
Confusing? More than just a little bit, I'd say!
But then no one said you had to understand every single thing that was done back then, just do your very best to replicate it.
Sooo, after all is said and done, you are forced by your inner self to at least give it a try!
Uncle Russ...
Post by: RobD on April 24, 2013, 06:05:34 AM
the real questions each of us need to answer is ...
1. how much consistent accuracy is required?
2. how best to achieve that goal with either musket or rifle?
i want to hit all the things i'm aiming at. i want a Most consistently accurate rifle. imho, part of that process involves a consistent patch and ball. each rifle dictates what "consistent" will mean for it to do its thing accurately. messing with variations in compressed patch thickness and slickness, pure lead ball diameter and weight, are merely the starting points for achieving that accuracy - and there's lots more. "process" is a large part of that equation, too.
while i find it quite interesting to delve into what the musketeers and riflemen of yore employed for their shooting, lots of their materials and processes clearly weren't geared towards consistent accuracy. their shooting was forced to be far more about the practicality of the moment.
so at least for me, since i don't aspire to be period correct, and i'm more interested in accuracy, leather patching is very historically interesting to verbalize, not actualize. ymmv.
Post by: huntinguy on April 24, 2013, 10:52:58 AM
From the encyclopedia Britannica:
"fustian, fabric originally made by weaving two sets of cotton wefts, or fillings, on a linen warp, popular during the European Middle Ages. The word has come to denote a class of heavy cotton fabrics, some of which have pile surfaces, including moleskin, velveteen, and corduroy.
...Switzerland had a rising fustian industry in the 14th century, and French weavers were making fringed and roughened fustians in the 16th. These early fustians appear to have been smooth fabrics with a soft raised nap; eventually, a ribbed pile surface was developed. By the 19th century cotton was being used for the warp as well as the filling.
In all fustians one of the sets of filling yarns is made up of floats (yarns that skip over two or more adjacent warp yarns). When a pile fabric is desired, the weft floats must be cut, a process originally performed by hand with a fustian knife but now done mechanically. The pile is brushed, sheared, and singed, and finally the fabric is bleached and dyed."
It would seem that this was some very thick and squishy patch material. Also, I found another reference that said it was the cloth used to make the clothing of the working class in England, I got the impression around 1834 or so, and it was stiffened, at the time of manufacture, with glue made from bone.
It would appear that some of the early military patching material was much thicker than we think ( or at least what I thought).
RussB might be closer to accurate with his Chamois Cloth (if it is not a synthetic material) than he thought.
Good going RussB. I can't wait to hear the report of how the Chamois Cloth works.
Also, RFD, I understand your point. I have the bad habit of wanting to squeeze the most accuracy out of my rifle that I can. I have taken it too far in trying to get a tight fit, thinking that was what was required for accuracy, to the point that one year the weather was cold (okay, for the PNW pushing single digits is cold) that I could not load my patch/ball combination... made for an interesting hunt :lol sign )
Post by: Sir Michael on April 24, 2013, 02:49:52 PM
Post by: Sir Michael on April 25, 2013, 03:25:21 PM
[attachment=1:3knrr1d1][/attachment]Practical_instructions_for_US military_officers 1811 35.pdf[/attachment:3knrr1d1]
[attachment=0:3knrr1d1][/attachment]Practical_instructions_for_US military_officers 1811 36.pdf[/attachment:3knrr1d1]
Post by: Two Steps on April 25, 2013, 04:18:59 PM
Post by: Buzzard on April 25, 2013, 04:37:07 PM
Post by: huntinguy on April 26, 2013, 01:54:10 PM
Quote from: "Sir Michael"
Just remembered that in the Practical Instructions for US Military Officers 1811 there was also a reference to the use of leather patches. The following are the two pages from that book that discuss loading in general and mention the use of leather.
[attachment=1:1i0lvso5][/attachment]Practical_instructions_for_US military_officers 1811 35.pdf[/attachment:1i0lvso5]
[attachment=0:1i0lvso5][/attachment]Practical_instructions_for_US military_officers 1811 36.pdf[/attachment:1i0lvso5]
Where did you find those links. Pretty good stuff.
(I have been listening to Baron Von Stuben's book for the order of troops. I like old stuff... not that it was old when I was young... but they tell me it is old now )
Post by: Hanshi on April 27, 2013, 01:28:55 PM
Quote from: "mario"
One perspective:[/color]
The Buffalo Trace: did they dye easter eggs with walnuts or indigo? do you care? (http://buffalotrace1765.blogspot.com/2011/06/did-they-dye-easter-eggs-with-walnuts.html)
Mario
I think the Indians (prior to the coming of the Europeans) colored Easter Eggs with the same paint they used for war paint. Later, after exposure to the European's Easter Eggs, the practice of coloring them with acrylic paint became the norm. After about 1700, the use of color from berries, nuts and such did begin to catch on.
I can suggest a book on the subject, "The Easter Bunny and Easter Egg Worship in Paleo Indian Culture and the Early Colonial Period", by Prof. Noble Zand Barnes of the University of Ga. at Bogart. Interesting reading.
Post by: Sir Michael on April 28, 2013, 03:23:47 PM
[attachment=0:wg8bzglg][/attachment]Page 4 from Practical instructions.pdf[/attachment:wg8bzglg]
Post by: mario on April 29, 2013, 11:53:35 PM
Quote from: "huntinguy"
It would seem logical that leather would be easier to get than cloth, say for long hunters, trappers and Indians - yet? So many accounts of those groups wearing cloth articles rather than leather and then char-cloth and patching, but....
Logical, maybe. Factual, not really. The trade was HUGE. Especially that of cloth (cloth took up the largest %). People living in the most remote sections of eastern NA still had fairly good access to trade goods. The myth of the 18th century trans-Appalachian pioneer making everything themselves is just that, a myth.
Not to mention, where rifles were common (PA on south) deerskins were money. 1 untanned deerskin could buy more cloth for patching than the skin itself would provide.
Kinda like going to the fabric store and buying $5 worth of linen/cotton vs. cutting up a $5 bill for patching.
In an emergency is one thing, but as a regular thing, not so much.
Mario
PS- In the 18th century, "trappers" and "Indians" were the same people. Not many white folks doing it.
Post by: greggholmes on April 30, 2013, 12:27:00 AM
Quote from: "Hanshi"
Quote from: "mario"One perspective:[/color]
The Buffalo Trace: did they dye easter eggs with walnuts or indigo? do you care? (http://buffalotrace1765.blogspot.com/2011/06/did-they-dye-easter-eggs-with-walnuts.html)
Mario
I think the Indians (prior to the coming of the Europeans) colored Easter Eggs with the same paint they used for war paint. Later, after exposure to the European's Easter Eggs, the practice of coloring them with acrylic paint became the norm. After about 1700, the use of color from berries, nuts and such did begin to catch on.
I can suggest a book on the subject, "The Easter Bunny and Easter Egg Worship in Paleo Indian Culture and the Early Colonial Period", by Prof. Noble Zand Barnes of the University of Ga. at Bogart. Interesting reading.
"prior to the coming of the Europeans" there was no "easter" in the new world. It is a christian idea.
also dye is not needed
Easter Egger Chickens (http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGA/Arau/BRKEaster.html)
(http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGA/Arau/EasterEggersncludingRarePink).JPEG)
Post by: Sir Michael on April 30, 2013, 11:53:45 AM
Post by: mario on April 30, 2013, 02:02:59 PM
Quote from: "Sir Michael"
And this relates to leather patching how????
Joking about the tongue-in-cheek title of the blog post I posted above.
Mario
Post by: Sir Michael on April 30, 2013, 02:07:01 PM