Post by: KHickam on August 05, 2013, 08:09:19 PM
Post by: greyhunter on August 06, 2013, 06:58:08 AM
Post by: Uncle Russ on August 06, 2013, 12:43:44 PM
This PC / HC question has been around since long before the Bicentennial of 1976, although many feel that's where it got its big start...prior to that, there were plenty of other things to argue about, and argue we did.
In the late sixties and early seventies there was very little "readily available" reference material, and the owner of a book like The Cap Lock Rifle by Maj.Ned Roberts was considered the subject matter expert on Muzzleloaders.
Of course other books were available, but that required a trip to the Library and research....something buckskinners of the day had very little time for, so word of mouth became gospel, much like it would have back in 1820.
As far as the question itself, "would a modern day muzzle loader raise any eye brows?"......I don't think so, perhaps a bit of curiosity, especially from those with a small disposable income....would it shoot a little better, would it cost any more, and would it increase status real or imagined?
I think the question of how a little ol' percussion cap, something that had been around for only a few years and they had likely only heard of in 1820, how was this little jewel going to replace a recognized, time honored ignition system of flint & frizzen?
Now that would have raised more eyebrows than a coiled spring, shinny stock, or brass, at least in my mind.
I also think GH nailed it when he said there was NEED for a sturdy, and reasonable priced rifle....that "need" has never changed from day one, it existed then, even before "then", and it exists today.
Just one person's thoughts, and I'm sure we all have our own personal thoughts on this subject.
Uncle Russ
Post by: Hank in WV on August 06, 2013, 04:59:35 PM
Post by: Hanshi on August 06, 2013, 05:20:14 PM
Other than casual interest no eyebrow would be raised any higher than if you were wearing a new hat.
Post by: RobD on August 07, 2013, 07:42:26 AM
Post by: Two Steps on August 07, 2013, 10:23:27 AM
Just MHO.
Post by: Captchee on August 07, 2013, 09:16:42 PM
Style wise , there were enough different gun designs around that I feel most folks would have just looked at them as probably made by some un recognized maker or a makers new model .
Post by: RobD on August 07, 2013, 09:41:53 PM
Quote from: "Captchee"
I would agree with the others ., I don’t think they would have seen any real issues other then the cap ignition like Uncle Russ mentioned .
Style wise , there were enough different gun designs around that I feel most folks would have just looked at them as probably made by some un recognized maker or a makers new model .
precisely put, sir.
Post by: Sir Michael on August 08, 2013, 02:03:45 PM
Post by: RobD on August 08, 2013, 02:54:06 PM
Quote from: "Sir Michael"
My only thought would be that if they saw several of the same model on the shelf in a shoppe they would have marveled at the consistency between them and wondered just how the maker managed that.
how true, how true!
Post by: HumBum on August 23, 2013, 01:09:26 PM
Post by: Uncle Russ on August 23, 2013, 01:40:39 PM
Quote from: "HumBum"
So just as these rifles are less expensive than hand made rifles today which is the reason many people today buy them, because that's what they can afford, people of those days would marvel at the lower cost and probably buy more of them, as long as they were sturdy and could shoot straight. I love the artistry of hand made goods but I do not own many of the things I would love to have for my camp for the simple reason I can not afford them. Although mass production took a lot of the person touches out of products it also brought to the table many things common folks would never have dreamed of owning.
Tremendous wisdom in that short statement!
Welcome to the TMA forum, HumBum
Uncle Russ....
Post by: Captchee on August 23, 2013, 05:42:54 PM
Post by: RobD on August 24, 2013, 09:51:41 PM
same for back in the day, same for today.
Post by: KHickam on August 24, 2013, 11:19:45 PM
Post by: Captchee on August 25, 2013, 09:21:39 AM
Quote from: "rfd"
reliable long guns that are cost effective will outsell the one-offs simply due to mass public appeal.
same for back in the day, same for today.
Well yes and no ,
True mass production as we know it today , did not exist tell into the mid 19th century .
What did exist was a one off type of mass production where a company would have a large labor force OR would have guilds producing components that would later be assembled . But all to often that also included the problem of parts not being interchangeable .
Take for example what is limped into being called the NW Trade gun today .
Very large quantities were produced for the trade market here in the Americas’ .
Depending on the maker some were junk to the point they would not work “poor reliability “. what happened was in the process of trying to make the gun cheaper and increase production , they took a gun that was of poor quality to start with and made it even worse . William Johnson talks about this issue in his diaries and letter from the NIB,. It got so bad that he and others in the trade market , could not get rid of their stockpiles .. It should also be noted that the actual cost of even those guns was very much what one would pay today to have one built
Another good example of quality and reliability with large availability , yet little to no market would be the military arms . We know from many different diary accounts that these guns were simply not wanted by the largest % of civilians and Natives alike .
On the flip side however , if we look at companies like Hall who produced a reliable long arm and whose sales and production numbers far exceeded those of Hawkens , in the very same time frame. Do we still not have to ask , where are those guns are and why a company with very small production numbers and sales , was so much more desirable .
Infact to the point that the hall rifles are near lost in reference. Possibly to the point that if it wasn’t for the rifles ability to be converted to breech loading during the US civil war, we might be mentioning the Hall rifles as nothing more then a foot note .
Flash forward to today and our true mass production which provides interchangeable parts within the model and maker .
Back in the 1970’s there were probably 20 or 30 different makers . Everyone from Sears to Ithica, Winchester and Remington was jumping on the band wagon.
Even 20 years later the companies that were left were those who for the most part were producing what was consider a far less reliable gun . IE Jukar and Adesa
TC was still marketing their line . But their sales paled in comparison.
CVA later drop production with Jukar and started having their rifles built in Adesa .
When Traditions started up , they to took on contracts with Adesa . Thus you had both companies whish while slightly different are basically the same , with for the most part interchangeable parts .
IMO those guns are for the most part reliable even though they are very cheaply made
If however we look at the price , they are also entering or passed the relm of a much higher quality gun like TC or the Italian imports .
Yet TC is now out of the market . CVA is gone . You now have Traditions and Pedersoli and its subs which produce the lyman , investment arms lines ..
Both of which have been IMO probably bolstered by Smith & Wesson shutting down the TC side lock lines just as traditions sale probably increases when CVA dropped out of the market .
Today IMO the market has changed in that more and more the customer is looking for a better quality piece . Back in the 1970’s when I did my apprenticeship, there were only a small few who were building custom muzzleloaders . Back then we were either buying parts through Dixie , reclaiming original parts or making our own . But within a few years , we had more options as quality makers started to pop up .
Today . There is a whole behind the seens industry with just about everything anyone would want or consider wanting . The numbers of people building and marketing their rifles has boomed to the point its not hard to find someone who can build you what your looking for .
Price wise . Well im sorry I hate to tell you this but the relative price has frankly not changed all that much in 300 years. For the most part a working serviceable custom rifle is still costing in the ball park of 1 months wages . No one is getting rich . For the most part the vast majority of smiths and builders are still making less then minimum wage .
Then you have those who are making maybe 14-16 an hour if they are knowledgeable and fast . Those who are making going shop rate , which is a small hand full are doing so do to modern technologies so as to bolster their production .
Those who build extremely high dollar piece, who make journeyman and master wages are few and far between and their production numbers are very small .
So let me close this long post by saying this .
Production wise , in the time frame we are talking about , the guns that were mentioned , could not have been built and sold for the relative cost they are today . So frankly that’s out of consideration . They would have cost just as much as anything we today consider to be custom or semi custom IE around one months wages for the common man .
Would those guns become popular to the point they were recorded as anything more then a footnote . IMO probably not . I say that not because of quality but because they would have been entering the market at a time of great and drastic change in the firearms industry
Post by: RobD on August 25, 2013, 04:45:43 PM
i agree.
while it's nice to be nostalgiac about some or all of the 18th/19th centuries, and make guesses about this topic's subject matter, i'm glad not to have lived those eras, and very thankful for the overall quality of long guns available these dayze, both mass produced and custom built. works for me.
Post by: 1911tex on August 26, 2013, 10:30:07 PM
Post by: Captchee on August 26, 2013, 11:15:02 PM
both he and Clark also carried their personal rifles which were one off ,custom rifles
Post by: KHickam on August 27, 2013, 07:51:00 AM