Post by: Muley on April 02, 2014, 10:36:32 PM
Do you think there's any truth in this, and if it isn't. Why did they use a 1-48 twist for just a PRB?
Post by: Buzzard on April 03, 2014, 11:59:42 AM
Post by: Muley on April 03, 2014, 12:02:04 PM
Post by: Muley on April 03, 2014, 12:15:57 PM
The most famous makers of these rifles were two brothers, Jake and Sam Hawken. This example was made by Sam Hawken in 1849, just as the California Gold Rush began. It and its kin are symbolic of the fervor for Manifest Destiny, which had infected the U.S. between 1835 and 1850. Soon after 1850, however, the spoils of this Manifest Destiny would lead to internal disagreement over the expansion of slavery into new lands." - Dr. William L. Roberts, THE AMERICAN LIBERTY COLLECTION; #58
The Hawken name is well known to students of the 19th century American West, as well as to firearms collectors. The family's association with gunmaking began with brothers Christian and Nicholas Hawken, of Hagerstown, Maryland, who established themselves as makers of "Kentucky" rifles. Christian's sons George, John, Jacob, Samuel, and William later followed in their father's footsteps. Three of the brothers remained lifelong residents of the Hagerstown area, while Jacob and Samuel headed west.
Jacob, George and John were all employed for a time at the U.S. Armory at Harpers Ferry, Virginia beginning in 1807 and continuing until 1818. Jacob later relocated to Missouri, settling first in New Madrid in 1819, then in St. Louis a year later. By 1821, he had gone into business with gunsmith James Lakenan, who had come to Missouri from Henrico County, Virginia after working at the Virginia Manufactory of Arms. The experience gained by both men in the armories of Harpers Ferry and Richmond was reflected in the rifles produced by the pair, which were patterned after Virginia iron-mounted military and hunting arms. These patterns continued to influence the design of later Hawken rifles. Jacob Hawken continued in the business after Lakenan's death in 1825.
Jacob's younger brother Samuel originally established a business in Xenia Ohio before joining Jacob in St. Louis after the deaths of their father and Samuel's wife in 1822. Initially, Samuel started his own gunsmithing shop, but the two brothers entered into a partnership three years later. Best known for their heavy octagonal-barreled "Plains Rifles" with bores up to .60 caliber, Jacob and Samuel Hawken also produced light sporting rifles, shotguns, and pistols. Initially the brothers made their own barrels at their forge near St. Louis with the help of hired workers, but later, they followed the trend of buying factory-made barrels, which enabled them to increase production and possibly to reduce their workforce as well. Locks were both made in the Hawken shop and purchased from other sources, while stocking operations were most likely carried out by the brothers and their employees.
The earliest J. & S. Hawken rifle order that can be documented dates from 1831, and in that year and the one following, orders for 18 rifles were placed with the company. Both half- and full-stock models were available. Some of these were flintlocks, but percussion arms account for the bulk of their production.
Manufacture of Hawken pistols was limited to the years prior to the Mexican War, and these sidearms were carried for the most part by overland explorers and military officers. Pistols ranged in price from $8 to $18 each, while rifles were sold for approximately $20 for plain full-stock examples to $38 for best-grade arms. Shotgun prices may have been as low as $10.
For the period from 1821 to 1855, gun orders accounted for about 60% of the income realized by the Hawken brothers. Jacob and Samuel Hawken also produced stocks and repaired guns in addition to manufacturing their own arms. The firm also provided other goods and services to fur traders, outfitters, and related businesses of the period, most notably the American Fur Company. Legend has it that westward-bound trappers and traders stopped by the Hawken rifle shop to place their orders, but these guns were most likely purchased by outfitters and fur companies and shipped west for re-sale.
Although the Hawken name is often associated with the mountain men and trappers of the period before the Mexican War, the popularity of these guns peaked in later years, by which time the buffalo had replaced the beaver in economic importance. The Hawken rifle established a reputation as a well-made and reliable hunting arm suitable for taking bison, bear, and other big game. The discovery of gold in California and the exploration of overland routes to the Pacific also contributed to the demand for these rifles.
Sales of Hawken rifles peaked in about 1855, then slowly declined over the next ten years in the face of competition from military rifles and from the products other armsmakers including Colt and Sharps. Accounts indicate that Samuel Hawken had the opportunity to market Samuel Colt's products as well as his own but that he refused, even though he could undoubtedly have made a profit from Colt sales.
Samuel continued to operate the business after Jacob's death in the cholera epidemic of 1849. In addition to his business ventures, Samuel was active in the civic affairs of his adopted hometown, both serving on the fire department and, on at least one occasion, he was a candidate for Mayor of St. Louis. The later history of Samuel's life and enterprises is unclear, with sources indicating a variety of different outcomes to his life's story. Upon his retirement in 1854, Samuel may have sold the business to J. P. Gemmer, an employee of the firm. Other sources indicate that Samuel's son, William S. Hawken, and William's business partner Tristram Campbell, took over the firm, with William continuing with the business after the 1856 breakup of the partnership until he was forced to close the shop in the aftermath of the Panic of 1857.
Still other sources claim that the business passed to William L. Watt and Joseph Eterle, who later sold it to Gemmer. In any event, both Samuel and William relocated to Denver. Once again, there are conflicting accounts in this chapter of the Hawken saga. William again entered into the business of manufacturing firearms in Colorado, and Samuel may have done so as well. Sources claim that Samuel returned to St. Louis in 1861, while William remained in Denver. Samuel died in 1884 at the age of 92, and William followed him to the grave in 1900.
The Hawken rifle has achieved legendary status in the history of the pre-Civil War American West. Unfortunately, most of the Hawkens produced have not survived to the present day. Over the past one hundred years, numerous authors have written about these arms and their popularity with the trappers, explorers, hunters, and prospectors who tamed a continent during the 19th century. As with most legends, myth has become intertwined with fact, and many accounts indicate that just about everyone who ventured to the Rockies before the Civil War carried a Hawken rifle on their trek.
While the Hawken brothers undoubtedly produced many rifles, some of which did find their way to the Rocky Mountains and beyond, many other Hawken rifles were purchased and used by residents of Missouri and surrounding areas. Jacob ans Samuel Hawken weren't the only source for these arms, as many westward-bound adventurers were outfitted with firearms from other makers in St. Louis, Kentucky, Pennsylvania, and even Europe. Nonetheless, the quality of Hawken rifles and their association with such notables as Jim Bridger, Jeremiah Johnson, and Kit Carson cannot be overlooked, and these arms rightfully occupy a prominent place in the history of the United States.
Post by: cb on April 03, 2014, 01:07:56 PM
Quote from: "Buzzard"
Nearly all true Hawken brothers rifle were rifled 1:66-1:70" or more. And, 80% or so were full stock flinters! Only near the end of their careers did they build what we today call the Hawken style caplock rifle. The same time period the Leman came to be popular. Fortunately this time period is well documented.
Sorry but that is incorrect - every Hawken mtn rifle still in existence is rifled 1:48" and the two rifling machines once used by the Brothers Hawken while in St Louis are made for 1:48" twist. That is fact based on actual measurements and if you don't believe me contact Don Stith who knows more about original Hawkens than most anyone alive.
The fact is the 1:48" twist is the most common twist found in most pre-1850 American made muzzleloaders and that is based on actual measurement of hundreds if not thousands of original guns. The 1:48" twist as a compromise twist is a modern concept mostly promoted by TC when their early shallow rifled rifles didn't always handle PRB's well and they came out with their sort of roundball/conical to CYA. The super slow rates of twist are mostly based on English made big bores designed for high velocity and heavy charges for the dangerous came hunted in Africa and India at the time.
FWIW - I have owned several rifles including some originals and three Hawken repros with 1:48" twist and never shot anything but PRB's in them and they work just fine and generally use less powder for the same buck.
As for 80% full-stocks - not sure where that figure cam from? While it's true that many full-stocks were made (maybe 60% based on the existing records), the Brothers were making 1/2 stocks and caplocks (both stock styles)by the early 1830's and by 1840 or so they had become more popular. Other major pre-1840 RMFT makers such Henry (Leman is a very late comer to the RMFT) were offering half-stocks and cappers to the RMFT suppliers by 1830, showing a growing desire for this style and mode.
And yes all of the above is well documented.
Post by: greyhunter on April 03, 2014, 09:34:59 PM
Post by: MountainDevil on April 03, 2014, 09:47:38 PM
Post by: Muley on April 04, 2014, 10:47:22 AM
Post by: cb on April 04, 2014, 12:32:22 PM
Wah-to-yah and the Taos Trail - Lewis Garrard - Google Books (http://books.google.com/books?id=1jIo60ObAX0C&pg=PA132&lpg=PA132&dq=Out+in+the+pinyon,+that+morning,+with+his+big+Saint+Loui'+gun+%E2%80%94+a+Jake+Hawkins+gun,+she&source=bl&ots=gnkW4Cubw1&sig=bSCAi1Q4T280l6qu4ouRbFr3cgI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PuA-U9C7N6qGyQGqzYCAAQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Out%20in%20the%20pinyon%2C%20that%20morning%2C%20with%20his%20big%20Saint%20Loui'%20gun%20%E2%80%94%20a%20Jake%20Hawkins%20gun%2C%20she&f=false)
Quote
" Where is Drinker (the Cincinnati Editor) ? He w'as at the ranch, I believe."
" Out in the pinyon, that morning, with his big Saint Loui' gun — a Jake Hawkins gun, she was, eh ? He had bullets an inch long, with a sharp piint — be doggoned ef they was 'nt some, eh?
Post by: Muley on April 04, 2014, 12:34:29 PM
Post by: Captchee on April 06, 2014, 10:00:33 AM
Forsyth suggested that twist rates were defined by the size of the round . In some case he used rifling that was extremely slow to the point we would consider it as hardly having any twist .. These also had very shallow groves down to .002 if I recall .
IMO I think maybe that the Hawkens Bros , most like found that for the most common size of their bore , the 1-48 fit their needs . But they also used deeper rifling . Possibly they had no idea why this worked other then it just worked
Even today a lot of the better barrel makers make the smaller calibers in 1-48 or 1-56 .
I also at one time believed that the 1-48 was a compromise as conical evolution was taking hold. However I have came to believe that could not have been the case as a large % of the military guns designed to use conical such as the Minie , actually had much slower twists even as slow as 1-120 . Those rates didn’t speed up tell around 1860 and then they were increased to the range of 1-60 through 1-70 . It should also be noted that both rates of twist produced a very accurate rifle , even at extreme ranges . So still not as fast as the 1 in 48 but accurate with the longer conical .
Also conical evolution started very early the firearms evolution. There have been examples of projectiles that were longer then their circumference being found in F&I war sights as well as during the American revolution. They look very much like what we would call a wad cutter today . Just without the grease groves . But I don’t think these had anything to do with why the Hawkens chose the 1-48 twist
Post by: Muley on April 06, 2014, 10:22:58 AM
The Hawken Bros used the 1-48 twist, because the muzzle velocities were low around 1400fps in those days. They found that the faster twist worked better for the slower fps. It's intentions was still to shoot a round ball though.
When I read that it seems to make sense. Even today its said that going to a slower twist than the 1-48 will let you shoot heavier loads accurately. I always preached this too, but my Renegade has made me scratch my head. It's very accurate with a 100gr of Olde Enysford which is equal to 110gr of Goex. It's so accurate at 100gr that I can't help believe that it would still be pretty accurate at an even higher powder load. Yet, it's still very accurate with conicals.
I've never owned a TC with this sort of accuracy. The bore gets slightly tighter at the muzzle, and i'm thinking this has something to do with it's accuracy.
My discussion with MountainDevil was about using conicals. He says it would be traditional for my simulated era which goes up to 1860. I disagreed. I agree conicals weren't that popular, but that doesn't mean that some hunters weren't using them.
Post by: MountainDevil on April 06, 2014, 11:02:50 AM
Post by: Muley on April 06, 2014, 11:09:40 AM
Wish I was though.
Post by: MountainDevil on April 06, 2014, 12:14:54 PM
Post by: Muley on April 06, 2014, 12:50:11 PM
Post by: MountainDevil on April 06, 2014, 01:02:52 PM
Post by: Muley on April 06, 2014, 01:06:27 PM
Post by: MountainDevil on April 06, 2014, 01:08:39 PM
Post by: Muley on April 06, 2014, 01:17:24 PM
The first generation of rifled projectiles were hard to load, since they had to fit snugly within the rifling grooves inside the barrel. Minié balls were slightly smaller in circumference than the inside of the barrel, so they could be dropped in quickly. When fired, the base of the bullet expanded and gripped the rifle grooves, which imparted a spiral on the projectile and thereby gave it its greater range and accuracy. In 1855, Secretary of War Jefferson Davis adopted the rifle musket and Burton’s improved Minié ball, or bullet, for the United States Army.
Bullet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet)
Minié ball - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini%C3%A9_ball)
Post by: MountainDevil on April 06, 2014, 01:19:48 PM
Post by: Muley on April 06, 2014, 01:23:17 PM
You just want to argue, and i'm done. We've already hashed this out in PM's. I don't know what your motive is in this thread?
Post by: MountainDevil on April 06, 2014, 01:26:24 PM
"Do you think there's any truth in this, and if it isn't. Why did they use a 1-48 twist for just a PRB?"
You already pointed out that they had patched balls in mind when making the 1:48 twist. Not conicals.
Post by: greyhunter on April 06, 2014, 09:16:46 PM
Post by: Muley on April 06, 2014, 09:30:30 PM
Bottom line is i'm hunting with a PRB. I was just curious how PC a conical would have been. Not a big deal.
Post by: Captchee on April 07, 2014, 11:46:46 AM
As grey hunter suggested , disagree all you like , but be respectful to each other about it .
As to hunters using conical. There are a few references of conical in muzzleloaders for market hunting . but most of them are rather late and concern buffalo and eastern elk.
They are however few and far between . But i do seem to recall a couple late accounts profile in American rifleman with photos of elk an bison. I also recall the photos were of wealth Europeans . As I said conical are actually earlier then many believe . There were many European muzzleloader designs that shot conical and most were civilian gun as the militaries held onto the Round ball longer . But yes the RB does seem to be far more prevalent .
Also we should not that the sharps rifle was not the only gun used . Factually you see Remington, Spanish and other rolling blocks also being very prevalent. The idea of the sharps for a buffalo hunter is IMO become very much like the idea that every mountain man wanted a Hawkens or for that mater carried a plains style rifle . Its simply not the case . Factually the numbers of guns made by Hawkens was only a very ,Very small fraction of the guns being produced at the time . So we cant really state that , their chosen twist was what everyone carried.
Also we have to remember that concerning conical’s there was enough of a popularity even by the mid 19th century that manufactures were providing moulds for them . But mostly concerning small side arms . However the RB again holds favor for the revolvers . I know that’s getting away from the discussed application but I thought I would throw it out there as those were also the bullets that were the base beginnings of the later cartridge applications , which allowed for a heavier projectile in a smaller caliber .
But back to the Hawkens 1-48 . I don’t think we can definitively say why they chose that twist . Its only a mater of record that they did . That it works well for both RB and conical may be just one of those historical happens stances that was nothing more then a role of a dice
Post by: Captchee on April 07, 2014, 11:58:25 AM
but thats neither here nor there as if we want to go that rough , then we have to say yes its PC as the TC rifle was marketed for a conical and in a time when conical were being used for hunting . So I guess it all depends on how fine a line one wants to hold .
As many folks here know , I use both RB and conical in my slow twist flintlock . What I chose is dictated by what and where im hunting . Most times if im hunting on the canyon rim for bull elk , then I chose a 435 grain 54 cal Bernard Minnie. Not because the RB wont do the job but because im hunting Bulls in the Rutt , at very close range , in an area where the difference between going 100 yards and going 50 yards can make the difference between getting them out and needing a Knife and fork . They 435 grain does a lot more damage , carries a lot more energy and at very close range often times puts even a big bull that’s all worked up , if not right down , within just a few yards .
The rest of the time I mostly use RB as does my wife in her 50 cal ..
So is the type of conical I use PC for my rifle , I would give a hands down NO on that one . But is it accurate out to around 75-100 yards for hunting and do I use them . Yep I do in my 1-70 hand forged barrel
Post by: Muley on April 07, 2014, 12:02:35 PM
Post by: Captchee on April 07, 2014, 12:31:49 PM
Post by: Muley on April 07, 2014, 12:39:31 PM
Even though I always knew a .50 PRB would kill an elk. I wasn't so sure how far it would run after being hit.
My thought was a 460gr NoExcuses bullet would have a better chance of keeping the cow from running too far. Even with a low powder load.
What are your thoughts Cap, or anybody?
NoExcuses
Product Line (http://www.muzzleloading-bullets.com/index_files/Page319.htm)
Post by: Captchee on April 07, 2014, 01:26:26 PM
Even if you place the shot right on the money so it takes out the hart and both lungs , if it’s a bull and he is cranked up , your going to be surprised at how far they can make it . Has 0 to do with the 50 cal ball but the animal itself . I have personally seen bulls make it hundreds of yards with no lungs and no hart even after repeated hits to the shoulder with a 300 WB magnum . I personally back in my center fire days , had a small4x5 bull take 5 rounds. It was in the Rutt and up on the hells canyon rim . My first shot was a 170 yards broad side and up hill . He standing with a group of cows . He dropped like a rock . But got up . I hit him again . He staggered forward . Got his footing. Looked down hill at my partner and I and headed right for us like he had never been hit . I fired 3 more times head on square to the chest . The last round plowed him in at around 35 yards .
I began to reload and was looking down when I heard David say DAM hes getting up!!!
David dint have a rifle on that day as he had taken a nice 6X6 the day before and thus just has his 1911 . I remember yelling , Im out , im out and hearing dave start popping off with the 45 . When I looked up the Bull was heading up hill . I tried to drop the cross hairs on him but he had already made the top of the rim .
LMAO I remember looking at dave and both of us at the same time saying HOLLY SH@#!!!! took us a good 15 minutes just to get to where we saw him disappear. We found him anther 100 yards further down the ridge line and he still tried to get up when I walked up to him . He took two rounds 3 inchs apart through the right shoulder and exiting just forward of the left . 3 rounds to the chest in a 2 inch group just above the hart . The hole was literally big enough you could put your fist in it ..
When I started muzzle loading , I had a 50 . But my first bull , a 6X6 was at 25 yards . He wasn’t with cows but had came in quite . Shot was just behind the left shoulder right through the hart . He dropped near instantly . On average though with the 50 , as long as they were not all fired up , both cows and bulls would act much the same in that they would spin and trout off some . Normally as long as you don’t jump up and try to run after them , they go a 30-50 yards and stop to check their back trail . that’s close to where you find them . I have had a couple go farther in the 100-150 yard range when shot close . But they also were in a herd . That seems to carry them as even mortally wounded they try to stay in the herd . Know that a large bull often wont . He will a lot of times split off and follow along one side or another . If that happens don’t rush it . Either listen or quickly get to a spot where you can see the herd path . What that lead cow . She is the boss not the bull . Done go after the herd , just stay back , watch and listen .
Cows for the most part don’t go far . They just don’t have the energy bull so 30-50 yards with a 50 cal and you will do fine as long as you place your shot .
As I said my wife uses a 50 and for the most part the cows and spikes she takes don’t normally get more then 100 yards with a proper RB shot . don’t try and plow through the shoulder like with a center fire . Shootem just like you would with a bow. IE broad side angling slightly away so that the ball goes up through the hart and lungs . If you get to far forward with a cow and hit the shoulder , normaly there isn’t much worry . But with a bull , their shoulders and muscle up there are much heavier but at very close range that shot will work with a 50 as well . Just not as desirable IMO as going behind the shoulder .
I use a 54 cal and frankly I see little difference in the outcome on cows when using a RB . I have taken a couple with a 62 cal and there is a big difference. At close range they are pretty much done . Not much different then a good close shot on a deer .
Never have taken a bull with a 62 and I have never owned a 58 so can say .
But a word of advice . You hit a big bull that’s in Rutt , be real careful when you walk up on him even if he drops right in his tracks . just as you would walking up on a big angus bull out in a field . Some times its no different then walking up on a deer . But other times ,,, well you have seen the cartoon of the crane trying to swallow the frog and the frog has his hand around the cranes neck, squeezing for all he’s got even though his head is down the cranes throat.. The caption reads never give up !!! .
Well now that the deed isn’t done tell its done so make sure your guns loaded when you walk up there .
Post by: Muley on April 07, 2014, 01:43:23 PM
I've hunted for Colorado Elk for over 60 years. I'm not the type to brag about numbers, but i've killed a lot over the years. Until getting into muzzleloaders I only used a Winchester 94 in 30-30. My style of hunting is still hunting the dark timber. My shots are always under 100yds, but closer to 50yds is closer to my average. When I was younger I didn't really care where they ran off to. I would bring them out of anywhere. Not the case anymore. At 71 years old i'm very concerned about where they finally pile up. I've only killed one elk with a muzzleloader. It was a large cow at 70-80 yds with a .54 PRB. She went a little over 100yds.
I'm trying to not limit where I hunt, because i'm worried about where the elk will run off to. I have some very good spots for elk, but they have some ares that I really don't want the elk to run in to.
My heart wants me to use a PRB. My mind wants a big hunk of lead like the NoExcuses. It's a constant struggle with myself.
Post by: Captchee on April 07, 2014, 06:58:44 PM