Traditional Muzzleloading Association

Shooting Traditional Firearms and Weapons => General Interest => Topic started by: smokepole45 on March 26, 2015, 03:53:36 PM

Title: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: smokepole45 on March 26, 2015, 03:53:36 PM: I have reviewed to method for making paper shot cups to increase range. What about plastic shot cups like you can get from a re-loader's supply? I was thinking a load like powder/card/half a felt wad/plastic cup with shot/overshot card. Using a pre-slit cup with a flat base should work. Has anyone tried this?
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: Two Steps on March 26, 2015, 04:57:41 PM: I would worry about melted plastic in the bore...
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: Bigsmoke on March 26, 2015, 05:20:14 PM: Al,
I wonder if that could not be alleviated by using either an over powder wad or a Wonder Wad over the powder and below the shot cup.
I remember discussing this with Fred Neal at Cabela's years ago when the issue of steel shot in muzzleloaders was being debated and he mentioned talking about using a certain shot cup and did not have a problem with plastic fouling, even in heavy 10 gauge loads.
I am not much into shotgunning, so I have not really had any experience with this situation. Just thinking that buffering the cup from the powder should solve any problem.
I do know that in using heavy charges in big bore rifles, I have had good luck in keeping patches from burning by using a lubricated cushion wad between the powder and the PRB. I am thinking the concept should be the same.
John
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: smokepole45 on March 26, 2015, 07:43:41 PM: bigsmoke, what you described is what I have in mind for a load. After I put in the first post, I did a little searching and found that plastic shot cups are not always 'appreciated' on this website. I apologize in advance if I offend. The thing is, my smoothbore has work to do. By next season it will be taking Sharp-tail Grouse and Pheasant. As it sits, the pattern is far too spread out to be effective past 25 yards. I need forty yards. The barrels are too thin to consider jug choking. All that is left as an option is some type of shot cup, and I fear that paper cups, properly made, will be too fragile for the field work we do.
On the plus side, I will be introducing some serious outdoors-men and shooters to the joys of a muzzle loading shotgun.
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: Two Steps on March 27, 2015, 06:52:31 AM: John, yeah, I see what you and smokepole are saying. I reckon a lubed cushion wad would keep the direct fire/heat away from the shot cup. I've never tried it but would be interested in seeing the results. Smokepole...please let us know how this works out for you.
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: No Deer on March 27, 2015, 07:55:17 AM: Quite a few years ago I experimented with plastic cups. I tried them with the cushion, and tried them with the cushion cut off. I could not get any improvement in my pattern. Granted, I did not spend a lot of time trying these, as I ran out of patience with it when I did not see any improvement. Maybe further testing would have gotten some results. IIRC, I used cushion wads between the OP card and the cups, I did not have any problem with melting plastic.
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: smokepole45 on March 27, 2015, 08:32:55 AM: Thanks for the info. I found some pre-slit cups with a flat base. I will load them as you described and 'wear out the pattern board' to see if I can tighten it up. Perhaps I can post some results in a week or so. Thanks, and stay warm and keep your powder dry in Lansing.
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: Riley/MN on March 27, 2015, 10:14:35 AM: Like No Deer, I tried 'em. I tried the CVA ones with a removable base. Tried with & without base, wad under cup, different degrees of slit in cup, (found you could make a pretty good slug w/o slitting at all!) I think I still have half a bag somewhere. never did get a decent turkey group. although if I could hit one in the head with that slug.....
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: Rocklock on March 27, 2015, 11:11:23 AM: I have a small supply of plastic cups given me years ago and now have no idea who to get them from. They came un split and hold 1 7/8 oz of 7 1/2 shot. There are reference rings and I split them down to the 4th ring (4 splits). Over powder wad (Murphy's Oil Soap), column, shot and over shot card. Pattern at 35 yards is tight and a turkey killer to 50. Only fire a couple of times per year and brush takes care of any residual plastic.

TC
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: smokepole45 on March 27, 2015, 12:04:30 PM: How far down the shot cup is the fourth ring? Half? Three quarters? Also, is the shot cup a plain flat base? There is a shooter's supply here that has all sorts of shot cups. I will see if I can find something similar. Thanks for any information.
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: Kermit on March 27, 2015, 12:25:39 PM: I knew guys about 4 decades ago who loaded exactly as you propose to do. I don't know that any of them actually patterned those loads. They carried a range box full of stuff to the range to bust clays. I shot a 20ga 44" flinter loaded "V M Starr style" with powder, 2 thin cards, salvaged shot, 1 thin card. I loaded from the bag in half the time and shot as well, sometimes beating them all.

Go ahead and try it. Your mileage may be superior.
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: Feltwad on March 27, 2015, 05:35:46 PM: If your gun is an original or even a repro using plastic is the perfect way to ruin the bore of your gun . Black powder and plastic wads to not mix I have seen far too many muzzle loaders and breech loading hammer guns ruined using these . Melting plastic builds up inside the bore which in turn causes barrel ripple , the build up of plastic is a obstruction which can cause a bulge and worse still a bursted barrel Stick to your card wads and a volume load it will always be the best
Feltwad
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: Ironhand on March 27, 2015, 08:38:40 PM: At one time I shot a lot of competitive BP trap. Those guys shot hundreds of rounds and had a lot riding on their load performance. No one shot plastic shot cups.

Ironhand
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: Geezer in NH on April 10, 2015, 08:06:26 PM: Using Remington All American wads in my Navy Arms double I could break as many clays at trap as I could with my 870TC trap gun.

Plastic fouling gone with 1 brush and pass of shooters choice.

By the way I never had the so called petroleum goop using petroleum products with Black.
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: cyotewa on April 13, 2015, 12:04:08 AM: My friends & I have been using plastic wads in both of my BP SxS since the 70's. I have shot over 3000 plastic wads in them and haven't had the slightest problem with them. I have less than 3000 left as I bought 6000 years ago I'll keep shooting them and as soon as I have a problem with them I'll let you know. I hear horror stories about them melting with BP but I don't think it has near the flame temp as smokeless.
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: smokepole45 on April 13, 2015, 12:32:14 AM: That makes a lot of sense. How can a well sealed BP load create more heat than a modern cartridge? I am going to go for it. If things F**** up, I will reply to this post. My guns are not for for display. I HUNT with them.
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: Feltwad on April 13, 2015, 01:59:55 AM: Smokepolo.

Good luck with them if your gun is an original you will need it ,has I said early on I have seen too many guns ruined with them.
Feltwad
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: Skychief on April 16, 2015, 11:35:23 PM: If I felt the need to shoot plastic wads, I'd have to dust off the 1100. I just wouldn't feel right about them with my muzzleloading smoothbores, but, that's just me.

If you try it and like it, that's great. There's a lot of different interests and perspectives with black powder guns. Good luck.
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: smokepole45 on April 17, 2015, 08:42:19 AM: Thanks for your input. Believe me, I have no love affair with plastic wads and for that matter, I rarely shoot modern firearms anymore. Muzzleloaders are just more interesting. The problem is one of range. Sharp-tails and pheasant shots are most often in the 30-40 yard range, especially late in the season. My smooth-bore is cylinder choked and the barrels are too thin for choke tubes or jug choking.
I have tried paper shot cups but the results were not satisfactory as the pattern density was not consistent. That is the reason for looking at all other options. I am also looking for some sort of heavy card type cups, so the search continues.
Thanks
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: Longhunter on April 18, 2015, 12:02:55 AM: Quote
If I felt the need to shoot plastic wads, I'd have to dust off the 1100. I just wouldn't feel right about them with my muzzleloading smoothbores, but, that's just me.

I second that. For me it's about getting the game within killing range of my BP smoothbore
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: cyotewa on April 18, 2015, 12:24:41 AM: All I can say is come on out here and go goose hunting with me and see how you do???
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: rollingb on April 18, 2015, 01:49:15 AM: I've never had any interest in loading my traditional muzzleloaders with non-traditional components,.... doin' so just don't seem right some how. :rt th
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: Longhunter on April 18, 2015, 11:58:24 AM: Quote
All I can say is come on out here and go goose hunting with me and see how you do???

We've got geese up the ying yang here in Michigan with a special early season. With blinds and decoys it's not hard to get geese within spitting distance, I've even hunted them with a longbow. Like I said, get them within range, if you can't do that with a muzzleloader then get a modern 10ga
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: snake eyes on April 18, 2015, 12:39:29 PM: Quote from: "rollingb"
I've never had any interest in loading my traditional muzzleloaders with non-traditional components,.... doin' so just don't seem right some how.

:shake [/color]
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: sse on April 18, 2015, 01:30:21 PM: Quote
Muzzleloaders are just more interesting.
Oh yeah...
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: smokepole45 on April 18, 2015, 09:49:40 PM: Sorry to stir up such a fuss between the very traditional and the progressive traditional muzzleloading community! I am just a novice and have so much to learn from those who have 'been there and done that'. I really just want to shoot 'Ugly Betty' 30 to 40 yards and cannot jug choke or invector choke her due to barrel walls being too thin. There is one thing I just cannot figure out. Why would a muzzleloading shotgun melt plastic to the inside of the barrels when a cartridge gun does not? The heat surely is more intense in modern gun.
BTW- I used to be a member of the Cro-Magnon website, but quit it in pure disgust. Some of those members were taking sharpened rocks and wrapping them to the end of poles. Can you believe it? They called this stupid invention 'Spears'. All of us true Cro-Magnons know that when you are taking down a Mammoth, you have to get in close and use a flint knife. What a bunch of Neanderthals!
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: rollingb on April 19, 2015, 12:01:45 AM: All a "spear" is,.... is a knife with a looooong handle.
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: No Deer on April 19, 2015, 06:34:43 AM: Quote from: "smokepole45"
Sorry to stir up such a fuss between the very traditional and the progressive traditional muzzleloading community!There is one thing I just cannot figure out. Why would a muzzleloading shotgun melt plastic to the inside of the barrels when a cartridge gun does not? The heat surely is more intense in modern gun.

Don't worry about ruffling feathers, some people just want to be as historically correct as they possibly can, and respond on the computer about how it offends their sensibilities to use any modern components (Ironic ain't it? ). I personally think that it is a matter of personal taste as to how historically correct someone wants to be, and we should not criticize anyone that thinks outside that box, especially someone fairly new. I respect those that are striving for historical accuracy, and wish them luck, as I am comfortable with the level that the crowd I run with, and I have reached. It is all about where the level of enjoyment is that an individual wishes to attain.

No scientific evidence to back it up, but just based on my experience shooting black powder shotguns and cartridge guns, the barrel gets very much hotter with black powder than it does with cartridges. Can't explain why, just know it does. I can shoot a string of trap with my cartridge gun and the barrel gets warm, but shoot a string with a muzzleloader and almost can't touch the barrel, depending on how fast you can reload. It is really evident with a black powder cartridge shotgun.
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: snake eyes on April 19, 2015, 12:21:00 PM: Quote from: "No Deer"
Quote from: "smokepole45"
Sorry to stir up such a fuss between the very traditional and the progressive traditional muzzleloading community!There is one thing I just cannot figure out. Why would a muzzleloading shotgun melt plastic to the inside of the barrels when a cartridge gun does not? The heat surely is more intense in modern gun.
I personally think that it is a matter of personal taste as to how historically correct someone wants to be, and we should not criticize anyone that thinks outside that box, especially someone fairly new. I respect those that are striving for historical accuracy, and wish them luck, as I am comfortable with the level that the crowd I run with, and I have reached. It is all about where the level of enjoyment is that an individual wishes to attain..

No Deer,
:shake [/color]
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: rollingb on April 19, 2015, 12:26:17 PM: Lest we forget, our TMA Mission Statement is:.....

The TMA is dedicated to preserving the rich and fascinating heritage of the traditional muzzle loading firearms of early America. Whether your interest is in rendezvous, re-enactments, historical clothing, camps, trapping, weapons, accoutrements or American history, all historical topics in relation to the muzzle loading firearms prior to 1900 are welcomed.

Thanks everyone, for keeping this in mind.
rollingb
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: snake eyes on April 19, 2015, 12:59:55 PM: RB,
I most certainly agree with the TMA mission statement. But,in this case,why wasn't
it brought up with the first post of this thread rather than many post later? :shake [/color]
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: rollingb on April 19, 2015, 01:11:33 PM: Quote from: "snake eyes"
RB,
I most certainly agree with the TMA mission statement. But,in this case,why wasn't
it brought up with the first post of this thread rather than many post later? :shake [/color]
Had I noticed where this topic was headed earlier, I would have mentioned it sooner. :shake
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: rollingb on April 20, 2015, 01:56:12 AM: Here is a video of loading shot (mixed with corn meal to hold the shot column together for extended range) in a smoothbore. Watching the video is less complicated then me trying to explain the process using the written word.

The Trade Gun - Various Hunting Loads Part 2 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idXovCuHQps)
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: smokepole45 on April 20, 2015, 08:47:58 AM: Now that looks like it has some promise! I will take 'Ugly Betty' to the pattern board tomorrow and see how that load works. Thanks so much.
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: Geezer in NH on April 25, 2015, 03:50:36 PM: Quote from: "Rocklock"
I have a small supply of plastic cups given me years ago and now have no idea who to get them from. They came un split and hold 1 7/8 oz of 7 1/2 shot. There are reference rings and I split them down to the 4th ring (4 splits). Over powder wad (Murphy's Oil Soap), column, shot and over shot card. Pattern at 35 yards is tight and a turkey killer to 50. Only fire a couple of times per year and brush takes care of any residual plastic.

TC
Ballistic products Shotshell reloading supplies, components, & accessories: Ballistic Products (http://www.ballisticproducts.com/)
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: snake eyes on April 25, 2015, 03:59:30 PM: Quote from: "rollingb"
Quote from: "snake eyes"
RB,
I most certainly agree with the TMA mission statement. But,in this case,why wasn't
it brought up with the first post of this thread rather than many post later? :shake [/color]
Had I noticed where this topic was headed earlier, I would have mentioned it sooner. :shake
RB,
:shake [/color]
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: smokepole45 on April 25, 2015, 11:50:41 PM: Guys, I am the guy who started this topic, and now I will end it. My only purpose was to get increased range from a Beretta Tricentennial muzzleloading shotgun that cannot be choked. Let me also say that I am not a 'Mountain man' or primitive hunting re-enactor. I am a very experienced bird hunter. My friends and I hunt only wild birds and we are very competitive. I decided to raise the bar by eschewing modern shells and hunting with a muzzle-loader. The only idea I had was to use plastic shot cups to hold the pattern density out to 30-40 yards. Some of the comments were a bit snotty, but most were VERY helpful. One of the last comments was a link to a video showing how to use corn muffin mix to extend range. Danged if it didn't work! I got my answer about extending range, I won't use plastic, and I am very grateful to all who commented. Thanks to you all for your help.
This is all about a hunt coming up in December next year. I will be chasing wily late season pheasant and sharptails with "Ugly Betty'. I am leaving my Benellis and CZ's at home in favor of black powder. After the hunt is over I will try to post a video of me nailing wild sharptail grouse and pheasant with 'Ugly Betty'.
Again, thank you for all of your comments and ideas.
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: rollingb on April 26, 2015, 12:03:37 AM: I'm glad the corn meal worked for you!
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: smokepole45 on April 26, 2015, 12:48:35 AM: Thanks to you for getting me there. You, above all have been most helpful.

BRAVO ZULU
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: rollingb on April 26, 2015, 01:12:43 AM: Thanks for the kind words.
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: stouffrc on September 25, 2015, 06:04:32 PM: In his book "Shotguns" I seem ro remember Elmer Kieth mentioning pouring melted tallow inside his hand loaded paper shells and then allowing it to set up. I belive he was pass-shooting ducks and geese. (Last month I finished books by Kieth, Hinman, and Greener and it all blurs together.) If you have ever seen the old Burt Lancaster move: Valdez is Coming; he used the same trick in his sawed-off shotgun and jokingly called it "something for rabbits." You would need to put your shot in a shot cup and pour the tallow in that and seat the congealed loaded cup (could be messy in the early autumn heat.) On the down side, it might hold together too well. I would look at the shotcups designed for iron shot that are carried by Precision Reloading or Ballistic Products.

Regards,

rcs
Title: Re: Using plastic shot cups to increase range
Post by: Eric Krewson on September 25, 2015, 08:04:05 PM: You can patch your shot with strips of ticking and get turkey choke like results. I tried it in a 20 and found loading to be a pain but the patterns were great. I haven't tried it in my 12 because I had it jug choked.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/hunting%20stuff/dowelandpatch.jpg) (http://http)

Before I patched the shot I might get 5 or 6 pellets in a target at 25 yards out of my 20. After patching this was the result;

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/hunting%20stuff/pattern2014_zps1dd2a7e7.jpg) (http://http)