Post by: RobD on May 24, 2015, 07:36:33 PM
lyman's cleaning regimen recommends ...
"The powder channel inside the breech plug is smaller than the bore
diameter and does not allow the cleaning jag to enter. Lyman recommends the
use of a .38 cal. cleaning brush and/or a slotted tip cleaning rod to reach into
this area.cleaning regimen recommends."
what's the pros (if any) and cons about the patent breech?
anyone have a diagram or pic of the lyman (investarms) patent breech?
much obliged, amigos.
Post by: cyotewa on May 24, 2015, 11:20:50 PM
Post by: RobD on May 25, 2015, 06:51:17 AM
would like to know what kinda patent breech is on the lyman trade.
(http://i.imgur.com/6WIVxpA.png)
Post by: Semisane on May 25, 2015, 10:48:04 AM
Having two Lymans and five TCs with Green Mountain barrels myself, I have lots of experience with chambered breeches. The cleaning fix is quite simple.
Get a 1/4" x 36" hardwood dowel from your local hardware store. Round one end a bit and cut a slot in it with a hacksaw. Use a small damp patch in the slot to clean the chamber. Put it in and withdraw it with a twisting motion. The patch won't come off, at least it hasn't happened to me in hundreds of cleanings.
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/NavZepol/BreechPlugCleaner.jpg) (http://http)
Post by: Hanshi on May 25, 2015, 02:32:15 PM
Post by: RobD on May 25, 2015, 02:52:56 PM
Post by: Semisane on May 25, 2015, 03:02:12 PM
Post by: Captchee on May 26, 2015, 10:34:59 AM
I still have some of the photos that I did concerning this so ill try to do a condensed explanation.
The original patent and improved breech plug designs art really anything close to what pedersoli or TC uses . Bothe the design of Nock and Manton had small flue’s that lead to an Antechamber . While these are later drawing , you can get the idea .
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/cva/FlintBreeches002.jpg)
What pedersoli uses is a modification on the design in that they did away with the Flue and basically made the Antechamber a dog leg . Here is a drawing of the pedersoli plug
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/cva/pedersolibreech.jpg)
Now as to they why of it .
Well as others have said , it is supposed to give a increase in ignition speed .
However remember that the “ORIGNINAL “designs came about during a time when every well known maker was trying to come up with anything they could which they could claim would increase the speed and reliability of the flintlock ignition .
It also provides for a stronger breeching as it allows for far more threads then a standard type breech
They Antechamber also , acted like a booster to the main charge . To understand that , we have to realize what happens during the micro second of the powder burn and the resulting pressure wave that started as the first grain of powder ignites.
In doing so we then understand that the Antechamber provides a much smaller area of burn . Directs that initial pressure and heat wave forward into the rear of the main charge .
The resulting back pressure “concerning a flintlock application “ then makes the small flue’s pretty much self cleaning . They end up acting much like a nozzle on a hose and produces a very strong jet out the flash hole . So strong in fact that its not uncommon to see originals that have pans showing signs of gas cutting . Some later makers even went to the point of making a small notch in the outside edge of the pan . These often also had a corresponding tab on bottom of the frizzen .
Now lets jump forwards in time , where this breech design was applied to the cap lock .
When this was done , for the most part the flue’s were done away with . You also see the advent of the Improved breech which incorporates the bolster as part of the breech . Thus producing a stronger design when compared to the earlier drum type bolster .
The problem however is that because of this larger Antechamber you don’t get as much nozzle effect which results in a build up of carbonized fouling throughout the entire system . If this isn’t cleaned regularly the fouling will build tell it reaches a point where the resulting back pressure is sufficient to maintain only a small channel through the hard carbonized fouling .
Now it would seem this would be ok as then we would have a natural Flue as was designed for the flintlock application . Well really you don’t as in some areas there will be pockets of larger air space behind the liner or at the corner of the 90 deg turn. This manifests itself as un reliable ignition in both the flintlock and cap lock applications . Less so for the cap lock do to the higher pressure and directed fire and heat from the cap .
As I alluded , this was an early topic here . I actually did some cut a ways of different breech plugs and photos of the pedersoli breech , the fix for that breech if it should become troublesome .
So first is a photo of a pedersoli breech plug from one of their flintlock rifles . This is what I often see when someone brings me one of their rifles that is having ignition issues
Note that we can see inside the Antechamber and that it appears to be open even though we do see fouling . Also , we can clearly see that this plug was not sealing and fouling was working its way down the threads
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/cva/DSC01257.jpg)
Now I don’t seem to have the photos of the liner that went with this plug or the corresponding photos of a drum breech from a rifle that suffered from the same issues . But here is a photo of the face of the breech . Note the fouling buildup and resulting small hole I spoke of .(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/cva/DSC01255.jpg)
This is how big the Antechamber should be , as produced by pedersoli
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/cva/DSC01263.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/cva/DSC01261.jpg)
Now the Fix if you begin to have issues . Well as the others have said . Start by keeping it clean . Use the dowel or get a small 22 cal brush that you can use to scrub out this chamber during cleaning . Just twist it as you go into the chamber and keep twisting as you remove it .
If you end up reaching the point where you have to have the breech pulled , drill out the chamber alittle .
I normally ream them out to .250 and as of yet not had on returned for the same issue.
Post by: RobD on May 28, 2015, 05:49:59 AM
charles, your detailed info is just Stellar! thank you for sharing and schooling me! Excellent!
Post by: twisted_1in66 on August 09, 2015, 03:37:29 PM
This shot a jet stream of ugly dirty solvent and dissolved fouling out about 6 feet or more and basically pressure-cleaned the patent breech. In all the time I used it, I never had a problem with it and I still have the rifle today although it really doesn't get much use anymore. You really have to be careful to point the touch hole away from anything that can get stained though because this method really shoots out a jet-stream and anything it hits will be permanently stained...like a tent for instance.
Post by: RobD on August 09, 2015, 04:06:04 PM
what's "MAP"?
Post by: twisted_1in66 on August 09, 2015, 05:14:45 PM
Plus for those historically correct folks, Murphy's Oil Soap is the same as the "soft soap" that was found back then and alcohol and peroxide were also available in towns. I mix 16 ounces of each into a 48 oz container, shake it well and then pour the mixture into about a 20 oz bottle. I cork that bottle and put it for my shooting box along with my gun oil, tools, and cleaning patches. That way I can pull the entire thing out to clean my gun at a reenactment or living history event and not worry about using and showing 21st century items. I also have some tow and will sometimes use that instead of the patches for the initial cleaning.
Post by: RobD on August 09, 2015, 05:38:52 PM
1 part Ballistol
1 part Lestoil or Pinesol
2 parts hydrogen peroxide
20 parts tap water
but i'm gonna give the far more period-correct MAP a try, too - thanx fer sharing!
Post by: Dewey on August 09, 2015, 08:38:53 PM
The first commercial production of Isopropanol (IPA, or 2-propanol) by the addition of water to propene was done in 1930 by Standard Oil of New Jersey (USA). This was also the first example of the manufacture of a petrochemical from a refinery product.
So neither H2O2 nor IPA are "period correct" (at least not our period) !!!
Ethanol was available, for sure, but who would want to waste drinking alcohol on their gun, LOL !!!
"Period correct" is hot water and maybe some soap (see Roberts).
Post by: RobD on August 09, 2015, 08:54:53 PM
the water part might also be suspect these dayze as well.
