Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Shooting Traditional Firearms and Weapons => General Interest => Topic started by: 2country on June 07, 2016, 09:13:22 AM
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Would someone explain a little on barrel choices?
A,B, C weight
Barrel type swamp, straight etc
Grove count, depth and style
Length and velocity, how much loss from a .36 inch, .38 inch from a 42 inch?
Barrel thickness verses pressure, 3/4, 13/16, 7/8, 15-16
Thanks
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all i know is that it's all about weight distribution, where a swamped barrel might be better than parallel for offhand shooting. barrel thickness dovetails with overall weight and weight distribution. same for full octagon versus octagon-to-round versus full round. it's been said by some "in the know" that much past a 24" barrel ain't doin' much for accuracy, though it might hafta do with a better powder burn for more ball/bullet speed. dunno much about the number of grooves and depth, but rifling twist is all about caliber and projectile weight and there are formulas for those considerations. i can't see much difference 'tween .36 and .38 calibers.
the larger percentage of all this stuff hasta do with functionality and then requirements. i think we all look for a good mix of requirements, functionality, consistent accuracy, and definitely aesthetics. i don't get too wrapped up with it all, and to each their own. i like full octagon parallel barrels that have some pleasing aesthetic length and overall weight, to better replicate mid 18th century arms. with smoothies i prefer an OTR barrel. lots of aesthetics abound. it's all good one way or t'other so choose what pleases yer eye best.
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Better powder burn. This is what has my interest. I thought I wonted a 42” for this reason, would a 36” be just as good or is that enough to lower a particular calibers maximum loading?
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imho, yer splitting hairs much beyond 36" - then it becomes more of a matter of manoeuvrability.
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Would someone explain a little on barrel choices?
A,B, C weight
Barrel type swamp, straight etc
Grove count, depth and style
Length and velocity, how much loss from a .36 inch, .38 inch from a 42 inch?
Barrel thickness verses pressure, 3/4, 13/16, 7/8, 15-16
Thanks
"A,B, C weight" Those are names the different modern barrel makers put on their products to identify the widths from breech (A is smallest) to muzzle and show the double taper sizes (swamped).
Swamped barrel is bigger in the breech tapering slightly toward the muzzle . Somewhere along that taper they go straight a short distance then flare back out to the muzzle, thus, double taper or swamped.
A straight barrel is just that, same width from breech to muzzle. Some are a straight taper, going from big to small breech to muzzle with no "swamp".
"Grove count, depth and style". I am assuming you are referring to the rifling here. They say the round bottom is better than the square bottom rifling and the depth matters. I'm not so sure it really does matter. I think this might just be a sales gimmick. I've always had good luck with both types and couldn't see any difference in them. They all can be made accurate and they all need to be cleaned.
Velocity/length is something I have never been concerned with. Same with pressure. Again, you can usually get any well made barrel to perform if you spend time shooting it. I'm sure there are some people that need to know all that stuff but I'm just not one of them.
Think about this. There are some people that can shoot a smoothbored gun as good or better than other people using a rifle. That tells me not to be concerned with a bunch of trivial matters and I need to spend a lot of time behind one gun throwing lead and burning powder. Know what load that gun likes and you will know where it will hit before you pull the trigger.
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what keb just posted ... times 2!
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Yep, Keb knows about what he speaks.
Don't let the, he said, she said, they said, I read once, kind of trivia take your eye off the ball.
Get to know the gun you decide on, and don't let hearsay make choices for you.
Uncle Russ...
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For all around shooting including hunting a swamped barrel can't be beat! They're usually lighter and shift the balance back away from the muzzle making a better balance rifle. I have both and wouldn't have a rifle built without one. A to D with A being the lightest and D being the heaviest.
However, for offhand shooting a straight barrel is KING. The muzzle heaviness makes the sights move very, very slowly. That front sight seems to simply "hang" right on the target. I've done my best shooting offhand with straight barrels. In the woods the swamped barrel is KING!
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All good information. The weight of the gun is important to me due to medical reasons
(7 lbs or under).
So a 36 inch Colerain B swamped barrel weighs about 4.5 lbs. Don’t know about the A barrel.
A Colerain 13/16" octagon 36 inch barrel weighs about 4.2.
I would be better of with the Swamped barrel?
Could I go to the 42” swamped and still be better than the 36” 13/16" octagon weight wise?
I don’t know how much stock and all weigh.
Is a walnut stock lighter than maple?
The maximum load I beleave for the 40 cal. with round ball is 70 grains of black powder.
Not that the gun will like it or that it will ever be loaded to the max, but will a 36 inch long barrel allow for all the powder to burn?
Sorry for all the questions, just trying to choose my rifle wisely.
Thanks everybody.
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There are a couple other things to consider when thinking about a new gun. A shorter length of pull will make the gun less muzzle heavy which will improve balance. Caliber will also move weight toward the butt. A heavier butt plate will also do the same thing. I'm not as concerned with the total weight as much as where the gun balances. A gun weighing 8 1/2 lb. that is heavy in the butt holds much better than an 8 1/2 lb. muzzle heavy gun. A lot of people like them guns with no butt plate but I like the extra weight back there. All that being said, I'd assume the heavier swamped barrel would be less muzzle heavy and hold better than a lighter straight barrel. It's not so much about total weight but where that weight is located.
This is just my opinion.
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FWIW, the length of the barrel has as much to do with style as anything. A longer barreled rifle just looks better.
Functionally, I think performance wise, barrel length doesn't really do anything.
Where a longer barrel does shine, though, is with sight radius. The longer the barrel, the better the sight picture will be.
None of my big bore guns has ever had a barrel longer than 36", and the .62's - .72's all seemed to be able to utilize 200 grains of Ffg powder just fine. And the 8 bore burned 300 grains and the 4 bore liked 400 grains. In shooting over snow, I never really saw much raw powder spit out on the snow, either.
Not sure how long you are going to be able to go with the lightest weight possible.
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A longer barrel has a LOT TO DO with available SIGHT RADIUS and accuracy as for my thinking! Short barrels are made for revolvers and pistols!
And I ain't gonna ever believe that a smoothbore (shotgun barrel) GUN is going to be as accurate as a RIFLE barrel!!
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ya know, aside from a few minor important considerations, this ain't s'posed to be rocket science.
it will ALWAYS depend on the prime use of the firearm, AND yer aesthetics.
'nuff said.
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Who do you think has the best barrel? Colerain or Green Mountain
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either maker will do, you'd be splitting hairs.
just get a barrel to your requirements and spex.
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My .45 has a straight barrel, 13/16" and 36" long. It is light and balances very well but with still a little weight at the muzzle. My .50 has a "B" weight swamped barrel x 38", balances like a dream and feels like a feather.
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What about history ?
A very long barrel was usefull before 1720-1740 because of the powder that was made in those years .
As time passed , powder was still made with the same 3 ingredients , but
milling , mixing and granulation improved . The powder available today is probably OK for 36 " and perhaps even a bit shorter barrels .
What is your favorite time period ? Classic long rifle ( so many styles ) ? Hawken ?
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it's ALL about personal choices and the primary use of the firearm. if hunting is some part of the equation, fit in the caliber and manoeuvrability factors. most folks who are somewhat like me enjoy a bit of each era, from the F&I war to the rev to the golden age and then the mountain man period. then there's the ignition system choices. i prefer flintlocks and enjoy early smoothies (F&I/rev), the golden era rifles and those rare half stock hawkens. if re-enactment is yer game, the firearm may need to be lots more period/era specific. if just shooting is the game, there are a few "hawken style" rifles that can be had for $500, but for the more specific era arm the price tag can escalate rapidly, particularly if a smoothie is needed. it's all good, there are no rules, totally subjective. enjoy!!!
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Some good input here. The gun will be a flint lock Lancaster, Southern type rifle used for hunting coyote to squirrel to rocks and flies, maybe small deer, just a do what ever fun gun.
I called Goex Powder inc. to get information on, barrel length and powder burn. The guy that I spoke with didn’t have a good answer.
I spoke with the folks at sittingfoxmuzzleloaders for awile, real nice guy answered all my questions. They will be getting some of my business! A rifle 36” x ¾ cross flats octagon barrel will come in at
around 6 1/2 lbs. This is what my traditions .32 cal Crocket is. It fills good but could have just a little more forward weight for better hang.
He said I can get a rifle with 13/16 octagon barrel down to around
7 ¼ lbs.
I can get a rifle with an A swamped barrel at 36” but didn’t get a weight.
Does anyone have experience with 36” x ¾ cross flats barrel in .36 cal and up?
If I go .40 cal with ¾ x 36” barrel, will the barrel be to light (flex) for good accuracy? How about a swamped A profile barrel 36” .36 cal and up?
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imho and respectfully, yer wasting a lotta energy and time on stuff that don't matter all that much. all the things you type about are all viable in one manner or another. you just need to decide what you want/require. getting opinions of others is just that - what they think and/or want. whether or not you already have a number of ml's, and since we all know there is no "best" muzzleloader, trying to get a whole list of things nailed down with one gun is a real tough row to hoe, if not impossible. this is why most of us have a lotta guns, probably more than we need but who sez some of us are sane? for yer new rifle, just list all yer choices and filter it down to what you think of yer criteria will please you most. if you spend too much time on yer gear thinking, the gear becomes far more important than the experience of shooting and/or hunting, or the camaraderie of your shooting buds. enjoy!
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yer wasting a lotta energy and time on stuff that don't matter
you just need to decide what you want/require. getting opinions of others is just that
Respectfully, not a waste to me and yes I can make a choice without help from a form thought discussing things was what a form was for. I put value on others opinions that is why I asked questions and enjoyed the different opinions.
Thanks everyone for your help!
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Some good input here. The gun will be a flint lock Lancaster, Southern type rifle used for hunting coyote to squirrel to rocks and flies, maybe small deer, just a do what ever fun gun.
"squirrel to deer" with considerations for .36 to .40 caliber will put a goodly emphasis on yer shooting and loading skills, and will require more thought in taking an ethical shot on critters larger than tree rats.
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If I go .40 cal with ¾ x 36” barrel, will the barrel be to light (flex) for good accuracy? How about a swamped A profile barrel 36” .36 cal and up?
NONE of that stuff about burn rates or barrel profile or barrel weight will matter all that much, imho. but you may also wish to consider recoil as a factor if the overall gun gets quite light.
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The gun will be a flint lock Lancaster, Southern type rifle
That's going to be a real gem of a rifle, especially with a 36" X 3/4" X .36
I just built a late period Appalachia flint rifle with a B weight Colerain 42" X .36. The finished gun weighs 7 1/2 lbs. The A weight wight save you another 1/4 to 1/2 lb. You go with a 3/4" barrel you're going to have some real architectural problems. Of course with a Lancaster of the Southern type maybe architecture isn't an issue.
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That'll be a doozy
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OR, don't give a rat's pitoot about being "period era hysterically correct" and do whatever the heck pleases YOU and not HIM, sez i.
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I know how to fly anything with wings and an engine, I know how to work on P&W radial engines, I know how to kill deer/squirrels/turkeys, and I know how to shoot a rifle. But what I am not schooled in or adept at is building a Traditional Rifle. Long ago I discovered that there are people out there that are smarter than I am and that my Dad taught me that if I wanted to learn how to grow corn....it was wise to go ask a man that had a crib full! So...a while back when I ran across a FOR SALE ad that Mr. Tom Watson over in Georgia had put up for a .50 caliber Traditional Flintlock that he had built up, I called him and asked about his experience with these rifles. He advised that he had 39 years experience in building them and that the rifle I was asking about was a 'shooter'! I bought that rifle and I discovered that Mr Watson's word is as good as gold! Being a 'newbie' to flintlocks I had a few problems at first but Tom assisted me with getting 'squared away' and now...this flintlock fires every time I squeeze the trigger! I believe it pays to listen to an experienced rifle builder!!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/2/1528/26530585232_0f5b65df1e_c.jpg) (http://https)Flintrifle (http://https) by Rick Mulhern (http://https), on Flickr
I cut the centers out of my 100 yard targets and save them and once I got the rear barrel sight adjusted on this rifle....the majority of shots went to center!
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/8/7315/27591367542_6baf471a9b_z.jpg) (http://https)Flinttgts (http://https) by Rick Mulhern (http://https), on Flickr
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I know how to fly anything with wings and an engine, I know how to work on P&W radial engines, I know how to kill deer/squirrels/turkeys, and I know how to shoot a rifle. But what I am not schooled in or adept at is building a Traditional Rifle. Long ago I discovered that there are people out there that are smarter than I am and that my Dad taught me that if I wanted to learn how to grow corn....it was wise to go ask a man that had a crib full! So...a while back when I ran across a FOR SALE ad that Mr. Tom Watson over in Georgia had put up for a .50 caliber Traditional Flintlock that he had built up, I called him and asked about his experience with these rifles. He advised that he had 39 years experience in building them and that the rifle I was asking about was a 'shooter'! I bought that rifle and I discovered that Mr Watson's word is as good as gold! Being a 'newbie' to flintlocks I had a few problems at first but Tom assisted me with getting 'squared away' and now...this flintlock fires every time I squeeze the trigger! I believe it pays to listen to an experienced rifle builder!!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/2/1528/26530585232_0f5b65df1e_c.jpg) (http://https)Flintrifle (http://https) by Rick Mulhern (http://https), on Flickr
I cut the centers out of my 100 yard targets and save them and once I got the rear barrel sight adjusted on this rifle....the majority of shots went to center!
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/8/7315/27591367542_6baf471a9b_z.jpg) (http://https)Flinttgts (http://https) by Rick Mulhern (http://https), on Flickr
That's a nice Hawken.
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(https://c1.staticflickr.com/2/1528/26530585232_0f5b65df1e_c.jpg) (http://https)Flintrifle (http://https) by Rick Mulhern (http://https), on Flickr
just ... absolutely ... beautiful.
and she's a shooter to boot!
curious as to what's the barrel length?
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Barrel is 35"!
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i was gonna guess 34" but 35" is darned perfect. too.
man, that is just one awesome hawken ... i wished you didn't post those pics, now i need to get me one of those!!!
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i was gonna guess 34" but 35" is darned perfect. too.
man, that is just one awesome hawken ... i wished you didn't post those pics, now i need to get me one of those!!!
Hold out for one with a Sharon barrel! :salute
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ok, i'm gonna ask some questions about it on yer hawken thread.
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That is a very fine looking Hawken you got there.
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That is a very fine looking Hawken you got there.
Thanks!
I'm somewhat proud of it!! :salute
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having a time trying to find tom watson - can you pm or email me his contact info, please?
rob@tradmla.org
thanx!
rob.
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I'll try a source...and get back to you!
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very much obliged, sir!
i really like your hawken!!!
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very much obliged, sir!
i really like your hawken!!!
I've tried! Don't know whether Tom is sick or what! Source can't reach him!! :roll eyes
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very much obliged, sir!
i really like your hawken!!!
I've tried! Don't know whether Tom is sick or what! Source can't reach him!! :roll eyes
HOORAY!
Tom just sent me an email!
flintshooter@outlook.com
Good luck!
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thanks for your help, i've emailed tom and we're getting down to the spex for my hawken build. life's still good.
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thanks for your help, i've emailed tom and we're getting down to the spex for my hawken build. life's still good. :hairy
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Hawken, you going the extra mile to help rfd get in touch with the builder was certainly a nice gesture on your part, thank you for doing that!
Caring and kindness goes a looong way in the TMA!
Fellowship...what would the world be without it?
Uncle Russ...
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Hawken, you going the extra mile to help rfd get in touch with the builder was certainly a nice gesture on your part, thank you for doing that!
Caring and kindness goes a looong way in the TMA!
Fellowship...what would the world be without it?
:hairy
Shooters....need to help shooters!
Thanks!
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If u r near central Texas we can meet and u can shoot my .40. Barrel is 7/8x42". Been shooting it since '83. Hangs good but may be heavy for some. I'm 6'5" and over 270 lbs. I do find after a day of shooting it I'm more tired than 30 years ago but I'll be 69 this year.
I don't think a rifle should swing like a shotgun nor should a shotgun hang like a rifle.