Post by: RobD on July 22, 2016, 07:30:51 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/Kutm3Ef.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/KHsn1L7.jpg)
Post by: amm1851 on July 22, 2016, 07:50:47 PM
Post by: RobD on July 22, 2016, 07:54:59 PM
Post by: Bigsmoke on July 22, 2016, 10:32:32 PM
That is a good looking rifle gun. It should serve you well. From what I have heard for many years, they shoot plumb center. Amazingly enough, of all the rifles I have owned over the years (and that's a whole big stack of them), except for rifles in inventory, I have never owned one. But I have sold a bunch of them.
Still cannot imagine why you are so intent on removing breech plugs for no obvious reason. I have been burning black powder for a good many decades and have never felt the need to pull one off the barrel. But, that's just me. If you feel the need, go for it.
Still like your rifle, though.
John
Post by: RobD on July 23, 2016, 06:07:24 AM
There may never come a time when you will need to remove a breech plug. Dittos for a caplock's bolster. However .......
If the barrel was dry balled, and the patched ball was a very tight fit that didn't allow easy screw worm removal, or if the chamber was gunked and corroded and held that patched ball so that you could hang off it without budging the ball, the plug will definitely need to be removed IF it's has a traditional flat face because even if the touch hole is lined there is typically no way to get in enuf powder to blow out that patched ball. I've experienced all those conditions, and others. Most patent breeches with lined touch holes will allow the liner to be removed and powder inserted to blow out the patched ball .. maybe (I've had instances where that failed miserably).
If there is a need to really clean out a flat breech plug face, or if the barrel was unlined and a liner was needed to be installed (drilled, threaded, liner trimmed to fit the chamber's wall), or if the barrel and plug were new and the plug's threads were never anti-seize lubed, or if the touch hole and/or touch hole liner were not properly drilled to meet the plug's face, or if it was a patent breech that needed to be cleaned out due to inconsistent ignition, or ... there are probably a number of other reasons to have breech plug access.
In the pics below you will see a brand new, UNFIRED Investarms barrel and patent breech plug for a Hawken flintlock barrel. That gunk and residue corrosion is from it's proofing. I've never seen these offshore guns cleaned after proofing and I've worked on quite a few. There is no way to properly clean and polish that chamber/flue/plug without removing it.
(http://i.imgur.com/taqW9cO.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/qOi8oBx.jpg)
I've found that Spanish patent breech plugs (CVA, Traditions and others) and some of the Italian gun's plugs (Pedersoli and others) are Impossible to remove - yer stuck (literally) with what you've got and I will no longer buy those muzzleloaders. Investarms (Lyman, DGW and others) will allow patent breech removal with the correct tools, and I remove them before their first loading, clean and polish them, return them with anti-seize lube for future removal.
As always, YMMV.
Post by: Bigsmoke on July 23, 2016, 10:43:22 AM
Of course, I have never been much for flinters, always preferred percussion guns. Over the years, I have tried to get excited over flinters, but it never worked. One time I bought a really nice flinter and sold all my cap guns. One of the stupidest things I have ever done. I even took it to the extreme and sold all my revolvers. Had one of every model and variation that Uberti made. But I had a flint pistol so life just had to be better, right? Not so.
Post by: RobD on July 23, 2016, 10:53:43 AM
Post by: Uncle Russ on July 23, 2016, 09:33:28 PM
However, my own, all-time favorite, is still a very old .54 GPR Flinter.
I agree with Rob that pulling that breech plug while it's still new is a great idea!
A very liberal application of anti-siege, put it back together, line up your witness mark, and you're good to go. By doing this, when the time comes later on, when that plug must be removed, you will thank yourself 100 times over for doing it the first time early on.
My old favorite was also built from a kit that I took in on a trade for something else, and then it sat around in the shop for a couple of years before I decided to put it together.
As Rob stated the initial "fit" took only 30 minutes or so, but that was when the work really started.
This stock below was finished using rotten stone, and LMF's Permalyn finish.
I have a strong preference for the light red hue produced by this method of finish. Problem is, if such can be said, every little flaw will show, so take the wood down to at least a 400, with 600 being preferred....that's where the rotten stone comes in. It gives a mirror-like finish.
I like tinkering around with nice wood stocks!
I realize many prefer a Tru-oil finish as it is much less work. Heck, I like it too!
Some even like Tung-Oil, and the lack of any shine at all, just plain good protection, and I like that also.
So after all is said and done, and when you get right down to the nitty-gritty, it's all good!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/RussB256/Guns/GPRforSale.jpg) (http://http)
IMHO, Investarms provides us with with some of the best quality muzzleloaders available today.....at a "reasonable" cost.
Right out of the box, they seem to perform much better than any of the other "out of the box" guns that I have personally ever had the privilege of trying.
Just my thoughts.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Bigsmoke on July 23, 2016, 11:53:27 PM
Post by: RobD on July 25, 2016, 12:50:40 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/lywsG0Q.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/z7wIQNl.jpg)
While the first coat of oil is drying off, I used a special 15/16" breech plug socket and an 18" Reed RCorp wrench to pull the barrel's plug - man, that socket is awesome and the plug came right off without the need for wrench handle extension. Again, the barrel's chamber and the plug flue and touch hole were full of proofing residue gunk. Cleaned it all up, used anti-seize lube on the plug and touch hole liner, homed them both down good.
(http://i.imgur.com/B9dkCr2.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/RSuxrw0.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/ObbUm60.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/b9f3uSk.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/8k8qVHu.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/CsBIVQr.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/44vtTIy.jpg)
Post by: rollingb on July 25, 2016, 02:27:57 PM
Post by: RobD on July 25, 2016, 03:27:53 PM
the 15/16" patent breech plug socket works on so many different barrels 'n' breeches and also comes in smaller and larger sizes, $20 shipped off an ebay vendor - Breech Plug Removal Wrench 15 16" for Thompson Center Lyman Investarms GM | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/272155541183)
pretty happy over the oil finish i'm using for the first time, came from track of the wolf - Our favorite Original Oil Finish, 4 ounce bottle - Track of the Wolf (https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1024/1/FINISH-ORG)
Post by: Hank in WV on July 25, 2016, 05:21:15 PM
Post by: RobD on July 25, 2016, 05:49:23 PM
Quote from: "Hank in WV"
Pretty neat socket you have there rfd. Curious about the shape of the hole. What is the other square part of the hole that you didn't use, used for? Hope that makes sense.
the socket is a near tight fit to the barrel, and i think that squared out opening just helps in getting it onto the breech end. took a few light tack hammer taps to home it on, no problem. will never have a tough time removing investarms patent breech plugs from now on, amen to that!
Post by: RobD on July 25, 2016, 06:04:13 PM
i've used many diff'rent kindsa finishes, including doing at least 3 long guns with that LMF permalyn. since it's a plastic, it only takes one coat for it to get real shiny, but that can get knocked down with some 0000 steel wool. super fast finish, though. all done in one day.
i'm really liking this TOTW linseed/polymer oil finish - top dries pretty guick and will get 3 coats on in one day (today). it'll have that oil finish satin look that i like.
Post by: rollingb on July 25, 2016, 06:13:52 PM
Post by: RobD on July 26, 2016, 05:50:54 AM
Ready for a range baptism ...
(http://i.imgur.com/cYxS3fl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/zrWU89z.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/eECDWiN.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/UUCmmvG.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/5CXH79L.jpg)
Post by: rollingb on July 26, 2016, 10:44:59 AM
Post by: Uncle Russ on July 26, 2016, 11:44:02 AM
Uncle Russ...
Post by: RobD on August 03, 2016, 04:54:06 PM
Investarms GPR Kit Hawken - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asQQ0xO-fwY)
Post by: rollingb on August 03, 2016, 06:47:34 PM
Quote from: "rfd"
The squared part of the tool's hole allows the tool to fit over the "snail" on percussion-type breech plugs.Quote from: "Hank in WV"Pretty neat socket you have there rfd. Curious about the shape of the hole. What is the other square part of the hole that you didn't use, used for? Hope that makes sense.
the socket is a near tight fit to the barrel, and i think that squared out opening just helps in getting it onto the breech end. took a few light tack hammer taps to home it on, no problem. will never have a tough time removing investarms patent breech plugs from now on, amen to that!
Post by: RobD on August 03, 2016, 06:54:49 PM
Quote from: "rollingb"
Quote from: "rfd"The squared part of the tool's hole allows the tool to fit over the "snail" on percussion-type breech plugs.Quote from: "Hank in WV"Pretty neat socket you have there rfd. Curious about the shape of the hole. What is the other square part of the hole that you didn't use, used for? Hope that makes sense.
the socket is a near tight fit to the barrel, and i think that squared out opening just helps in getting it onto the breech end. took a few light tack hammer taps to home it on, no problem. will never have a tough time removing investarms patent breech plugs from now on, amen to that!
hot dang rondo, ya nailed it! not being a cap person i couldn't figure out why the heck that socket wasn't full on octagonal! great info, sir, thanx!
Post by: Hank in WV on August 03, 2016, 09:44:47 PM
Post by: Uncle Russ on August 03, 2016, 09:58:30 PM
Quote from: "Hank in WV"
By gosh, that ole rondo's still got it.Yep, downright amazin' ain't it.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: rollingb on August 03, 2016, 10:55:29 PM
Both of these items are something I've could have used many times over the years. :shake
Post by: Muley on August 11, 2016, 08:32:12 AM
Just saying.
Post by: RobD on August 11, 2016, 08:43:41 AM
did a half stock flint hawken exist? were there a lot of any kinda hawkens in use by mountain men? don't know or care. the romance of the hawken, like that of the sharps rifle (of which only a fraction were built and used, as compared to the rolling block), is what matters to me and most others.
"There is no historical evidence that the Hawken brothers built any halfstock flint rifles, but, considering only about 10% of their rifles have survived, who can really say? One thing is for certain: to ship a rifle to Canada without a great deal of paperwork, it has to be a flinter. The Canadian owner of this rifle is a flint collector who wanted a halfstock Hawken style rifle with a flint ignition system - here it is. W.B. Selb" ...
(http://www.hawkenrifles.com/rifles/41294/IMG_2153.jpg)
Post by: Muley on August 11, 2016, 08:55:35 AM
Sadly, I sold the flint GPR I had. It bothered me that I had a gun that was never made. I wish I could have found your picture.
Post by: RobD on August 11, 2016, 09:10:54 AM
there are *SO* many things that went on 150 to 300 years ago that we'll never know about, let alone understand. without empirical evidence/proof, who's to say the hawkens brothers never made a half stock flinter? there was no "transition" rifle that married the flint lock to the half stock, as the flintlock was phased out of their offerings?
this is the same as saying there never ever was a short ball starter used during those periods. to date, there is no short starter artefact, nor written or graphic evidence of such a device, but who can say one never really existed? there are many other like examples.
all that will matter is what you want to make of all this stuff, what sparks yer interest and imagination. hawkens might have been desired, but according to records, not that many were actually in the mountains as compared to so many other rifle types, most chosen out of economic necessity. it's like the popularity of the sharps rifle is solely due to hollyweird, there weren't that many out there killing buff and in military use as compared to other action type rifles. well over a million rollers as compared to maybe 200k worth of sharps.
Post by: Muley on August 11, 2016, 09:21:52 AM
It's not that I was that heavy into being PC HC, but for my own satisfaction I wanted a gun that was actually built by Hawken. It's a personal thing. I'm not bothered too much what others think, but I am concerned what I think. Satisfying myself has always been difficult.
To be honest. None of the production guns satisfied me. Only a custom built Hawken would, but I never had the money for one.
Anyway, I didn't mean to step on your thread. Carry on.
Post by: RobD on August 11, 2016, 09:33:19 AM
it will always come down to what you want, and that's a good thing. tom watson's building me a half stock flintlock hawken, not because of the hawken name, but because it will have all the features i want in an early 19th century rifle for both function and looks.
while there probably was a short ball starter used in the 18th century, it ain't been "found", and allows free license to make of it whatever ya like. subjective stuff, not objective.
carry on, pete.
Post by: Bigsmoke on August 11, 2016, 12:24:55 PM
Anyway, good stuff. And yes, pistol grip stocks on long guns made in America in the day are HC. Even the Hawken Brothers made them.
John
Post by: RobD on August 11, 2016, 12:31:35 PM
Post by: Uncle Russ on August 11, 2016, 12:49:24 PM
Quote from: "bigsmoke"
while on this thread, another thing that muddies the waters are the speakings of many of the self proclaimed "experts" who pronounce things PC or not PC. And that goes right up to the NMLRA and their not allowing rear sights on a smoothbore match. (It might have changed by now, but when I was going there, rear sights were taboo). But, go to the Museum of the Fur Trade and look at the old trade guns they have there. When I visited last I bet fully 1/3 of the guns there had some sort of rear sight. But rear sights are not PC. To which I say, "BS!"
Anyway, good stuff. And yes, pistol grip stocks on long guns made in America in the day are HC. Even the Hawken Brothers made them.
John
Yep, that's exactly my take on PC, HC, and all the SME's (Subject Matter Experts).
It's all a matter of perspective.
We all have heard, and even recognize an eye witness to anything criminal is likely the best witness, likely very creditable, but still unreliable.
That phenomena is best described in the following cartoon.....whereas BOTH parties are right!
[attachment=0:2zd2vcsm][/attachment]Perspective.jpg[/attachment:2zd2vcsm]
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Winter Hawk on September 17, 2016, 11:10:51 PM
~WH~