Post by: JStanley on October 28, 2016, 04:11:52 PM
Thanks in advance!
Post by: rollingb on October 28, 2016, 05:28:54 PM
Post by: RobD on October 28, 2016, 05:40:15 PM
if you've taken the lock completely apart, cleaned it out, polished only the working movements, stuck it all back together with some form of light lubricant, that's about it. i would also check the lock mortise, to make sure the cock isn't in any way touching the stock during it's travel to the hammer steel.
these box-stock GPR flint locks are typically fast and reliable right outta the box. you'll find some threads in this forum on a pair of hawken GPR and DGW kits i assembled, along with videos - see how fast she fires, and that's with 3f in the tube AND pan!
Post by: JStanley on October 29, 2016, 12:05:41 AM
Post by: RobD on October 29, 2016, 05:23:36 AM
Post by: Uncle Russ on October 29, 2016, 01:13:02 PM
Right outta the box, they shoot exceptionally well, and when it comes to lock-speed, and given a fair comparison, there just ain't no fleas on that dog.
One can spend a lot of money and only hope they get a rifle as well built, as accurate, and as durable as the GPR.
J. Stanley, Welcome to the TMA forum, glad you've found us.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Hanshi on October 29, 2016, 02:45:54 PM
Post by: Ohio Joe on October 29, 2016, 06:47:48 PM
Quote from: "JStanley"
I was considering the L&R RPL lock to improve performance but maybe I'll just save the $$ for more English flints. Thanks for the welcome and looking forward to enjoying the wealth of this forum.
A wise move JStanley! I also considered the L&R Replacement Lock for my GPR Flintlock, then I asked myself,,, just what would I gain other then a traditional style mainspring?
Well,,, truth be known I'd gain a traditional style mainspring that is as hidden from view as much as the modern "coil" type mainspring that comes with the original GPR Lock... Hardly worth spending the money for that. I agree, the money is better spent on flints and powder.
Post by: Muley on October 31, 2016, 11:17:23 AM
I also just bought a GPR LH flintlock. I had one in the past and was disappointed in the lock. I couldn't hold powder in the pan during hunting and I always had more of a delayed ignition than I thought I should have. I wanted to change the lock, but being a LH lock it would have taken quite a bit of wood work to get it to fit. Something I have no talent for.
I have my fingers crossed that the lock on the gun being shipped to me is better. I'm determined to get it working this time. Good luck with yours.
Post by: RobD on October 31, 2016, 11:29:45 AM
Post by: JStanley on October 31, 2016, 11:59:39 AM
Quote from: "Muley"
Welcome to the forum. I believe we've talked on another forum, but can't remember which one. This forum is the best and some of the most helpful members you can find anywhere.
I also just bought a GPR LH flintlock. I had one in the past and was disappointed in the lock. I couldn't hold powder in the pan during hunting and I always had more of a delayed ignition than I thought I should have. I wanted to change the lock, but being a LH lock it would have taken quite a bit of wood work to get it to fit. Something I have no talent for.
I have my fingers crossed that the lock on the gun being shipped to me is better. I'm determined to get it working this time. Good luck with yours.
Thanks to all for the warm welcome! Muley, you are spot on - I found my way here from a forum with a more modern approach, shall we say :bl th up
Post by: Muley on October 31, 2016, 12:05:02 PM
Post by: RobD on October 31, 2016, 12:11:30 PM
Post by: JStanley on October 31, 2016, 12:13:02 PM
Post by: JStanley on November 01, 2016, 12:16:00 AM
Post by: petew on November 01, 2016, 01:04:35 AM
Where the frizzen pivots on the bottom can be filed/polished gently if it is rough , to speed the lock up a bit.
I tried the L&R RPL and it is no faster, and required a lot of inletting to make it fit. It also had the sear to long and was hanging up on the stock.I had to trim about 3/16" from the end of the sear. If your GPR lock isn't broken, don't fix it .
It seems to be fashionable today to "TUNE" every lock made. In reality I think this tuning is more of a fashion statement than anything usefull. If it is working good any mating surfaces inside the lock will smooth themselves out rather quickly. Often after being tuned I have found the 2 little screws on the cover plate over the lock's working parts were tightened to much causing problems that were instantly fixed by backing out the screws a tiny bit.
Far to often I hear these Investarm locks are no good, however this is almost always by someone that knows a friend of a friend who is an "expert" that says they are no good. Good flints, a clean vent hole will make them reliable and fast.
For cleaning the vent hole I use a tip cleaner for Oxy / Acetelene torch tips.Pick a file from the pack that goes in easily , 1 push in and out cleans all the build up in the hole. I know these are files, and could enlarge the hole if it is a tight fit, and used excessively, but common sense use will never wear the hole with a file that is smaller than the hole. The roughness of the file grabs any buildup far better than a smooth pick will. 1 time in and out is all that is needed.
Post by: rollingb on November 01, 2016, 01:23:30 AM
Quote from: "JStanley"
Here is the touch hole on my GPR. I've heard others say their GPR had the same problem.You can't move the barrel and tang forewards without creating a problem, and you can't move the lock rear-ward without creating another problem,... so if it was mine, I'd remove the touch hole liner, plug the hole with a metric bolt (be sure it is flush with the inside bore wall), cut the bolt off and file smooth,.... then mark the barrel in the proper location for a new touch hole, and re-drill and re-tap a new touch hole further forewards (using a standard thread for the liner instead of metric).
Post by: RobD on November 01, 2016, 05:21:21 AM
Post by: Muley on November 01, 2016, 08:37:34 AM
Quote from: "petew"
I have had several Investarm locks and all of them were /are very reliable and fast. The best improvement I found was using a liner with a larger hole and coned on the inside. 1 Lock had a frizzen that was a poor sparker, and I replaced that, and it is fine now.
Where the frizzen pivots on the bottom can be filed/polished gently if it is rough , to speed the lock up a bit.
I tried the L&R RPL and it is no faster, and required a lot of inletting to make it fit. It also had the sear to long and was hanging up on the stock.I had to trim about 3/16" from the end of the sear. If your GPR lock isn't broken, don't fix it .
It seems to be fashionable today to "TUNE" every lock made. In reality I think this tuning is more of a fashion statement than anything usefull. If it is working good any mating surfaces inside the lock will smooth themselves out rather quickly. Often after being tuned I have found the 2 little screws on the cover plate over the lock's working parts were tightened to much causing problems that were instantly fixed by backing out the screws a tiny bit.
Far to often I hear these Investarm locks are no good, however this is almost always by someone that knows a friend of a friend who is an "expert" that says they are no good. Good flints, a clean vent hole will make them reliable and fast.
For cleaning the vent hole I use a tip cleaner for Oxy / Acetelene torch tips.Pick a file from the pack that goes in easily , 1 push in and out cleans all the build up in the hole. I know these are files, and could enlarge the hole if it is a tight fit, and used excessively, but common sense use will never wear the hole with a file that is smaller than the hole. The roughness of the file grabs any buildup far better than a smooth pick will. 1 time in and out is all that is needed.
What did you use for a vent liner with a larger hole? What frizzen did you use?
Post by: JStanley on November 01, 2016, 12:35:26 PM
Quote from: "Rob DiStefano"
what rollingb just typed is the way to go, but only IF that touch hole is THE culprit for pan flashes, and not some other reason, such as ... are you pricking the touch hole after loading the tube and before powdering the pan?
I use a vent pick that is lightly ribbed after each shot and before priming the next. I try not to cram it in there too far after the tube is loaded though....... One thing I noticed one day after acquiring a color video borescope device from Milwaukee ( :idea
What do y'all think?
Post by: RobD on November 01, 2016, 02:35:43 PM
Post by: Muley on November 02, 2016, 08:14:09 AM
Post by: RobD on November 02, 2016, 08:33:40 AM
Quote from: "Muley"
I bought an RMC vent liner. Do I need to drill it out bigger or is it ok as is?
i'd let the gun tell you what to do. if you feel the ignition is lagging, and you've done everything "right" - the vent hole is properly located, the hard hammer steel and pan and sharp flint have all been cleaned good, the vent has been picked good after loading, using a proper pan powder, pan powder properly located, etc - and yer either having pan flashes or too many kaaaa-boooms instead of kaboooms, then some folks like opening touch holes to .060" or so. however, the more open the vent, the more it might suffer the "volcano effect". it's all a matter of compromise ... like most things in life, eh?
Post by: Muley on November 02, 2016, 09:04:18 AM
The last GPR flint I had I used 4F in the pan and 2F in the tube. I wasn't happy with that combination. I had a hard time keeping the 4F in the pan when hunting and it seemed to suck up moisture pretty easily. The 2F in the tube was ok, but my thought is 3F will ignite easier and maybe flow into the vent liner easier. Plus, I can use less for the same power as 2f for less fouling.
So, I ordered some Goex 3F and plan to use it in the tube and pan. Good plan or not?
Post by: RobD on November 02, 2016, 09:18:57 AM
Post by: Muley on November 02, 2016, 09:28:43 AM
Post by: RobD on November 02, 2016, 09:34:06 AM
Smooth rifle .62 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e7ZUgDZMlE)
Post by: Muley on November 02, 2016, 09:57:43 AM
Post by: RobD on November 02, 2016, 09:59:55 AM
Post by: Hanshi on November 02, 2016, 12:17:33 PM
Post by: RobD on November 02, 2016, 12:45:21 PM
early on, way back in the late 50's, a few of the local old geezers showed this teenage boy how and why to bounce the rod. i said that ain't right, it'll mash the ball, why do that when you can push the patched ball home?
one feller took hold of the little .36 skwerl rifle i had just loaded, and placed the rod down in barrel and said to note where the rod was marked at the muzzle, then he bounced the rod a few times - the first few easy rod flicks wouldn't get the rod to bounce, but the few after that made the rod look like it was vaulting up from a trampoline. leaving the rod down the barrel, the mark at the muzzle moved down nearly 1/8".
he said that'll make sure there's no air space 'tween ball and powder, and that'll compact (er, he meant 'compress') the powder for better performance. i said, yeah, but ya just mashed my nice round ball flat on one side. he said no. i said yes. he grabbed the rod and showed me that the pusher end was concave, and between that rod end cavity and the fact that it also beat on the edge of the patching as much as the ball kept it from going flat. besides, he said, shouldn't yer firm tapping of the last few ramrod strokes have mashed it flat, too? hmmm.
so i started ramrod bounce loading.
sometime later on, maybe that week or month, i dry balled yet another patched .490 or .530 ball, and pulled it with a small screw worm. aside from the 1/8" screw hole, the rest of the ball was what makes a ball, a ball - it was as round as when i thumb pushed it in the muzzle.
i guess some old guys do know some good stuff.
Post by: JStanley on November 02, 2016, 02:00:12 PM
http://www.blackpowdermag.com/load-compression-and-accuracy/
and supports what rfd is describing. They have some other interesting experiments that I enjoyed reading. I'm always in the learning mode, no matter how old I get.
Post by: JStanley on November 02, 2016, 03:02:02 PM
Quote from: "rollingb"
Quote from: "JStanley"Here is the touch hole on my GPR. I've heard others say their GPR had the same problem.You can't move the barrel and tang forewards without creating a problem, and you can't move the lock rear-ward without creating another problem,... so if it was mine, I'd remove the touch hole liner, plug the hole with a metric bolt (be sure it is flush with the inside bore wall), cut the bolt off and file smooth,.... then mark the barrel in the proper location for a new touch hole, and re-drill and re-tap a new touch hole further forewards (using a standard thread for the liner instead of metric).
After thinking about your recommendation, I came across a thought that might present a problem. After plugging the original metric hole and drilling a new one on center with the pan cavity, will the remaining piece of plug (green area) be stable? What would keep it from falling out when the new vent (blue) is removed?
(http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx185/jackeystanley/VentMove_zpshwakgmef.png)
What if I could move the pan cavity aft to be centered on the current vent position? Could a person fill the current pan cavity with say carefully laid tig weld, and then using a ball end mill of the correct diameter, re-machine the new pan cavity (purple) on center with the existing vent?
(http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx185/jackeystanley/PanMove_zpsgcj4xgza.png)
Since the pan cover is flat, it wouldn't be affected by the move. Sparks should still find their way to the prime, right?
Post by: Muley on November 02, 2016, 03:09:47 PM
Post by: Muley on November 02, 2016, 05:46:15 PM
Post by: rollingb on November 02, 2016, 05:47:46 PM
Quote from: "JStanley"
Quote from: "rollingb"Quote from: "JStanley"Here is the touch hole on my GPR. I've heard others say their GPR had the same problem.You can't move the barrel and tang forewards without creating a problem, and you can't move the lock rear-ward without creating another problem,... so if it was mine, I'd remove the touch hole liner, plug the hole with a metric bolt (be sure it is flush with the inside bore wall), cut the bolt off and file smooth,.... then mark the barrel in the proper location for a new touch hole, and re-drill and re-tap a new touch hole further forewards (using a standard thread for the liner instead of metric). :shock:)
Post by: amm1851 on November 02, 2016, 06:16:03 PM
Post by: RobD on November 02, 2016, 06:24:56 PM
Post by: JStanley on November 02, 2016, 08:33:27 PM
Quote from: "Rob DiStefano"
js - did you buy yer gun new or used? if new, how long ago?
I traded for it - it was unfired though. When it arrived it looked like it had been sparked (dry fired) a few times but other than that it looked like NIB. I've had it for less than a year.
Post by: RobD on November 02, 2016, 10:07:31 PM
Quote from: "JStanley"
Quote from: "Rob DiStefano"js - did you buy yer gun new or used? if new, how long ago?
I traded for it - it was unfired though. When it arrived it looked like it had been sparked (dry fired) a few times but other than that it looked like NIB. I've had it for less than a year.
i guess there was no "return policy", with regards to the touch hole. oh well. sorry to hear this.
Post by: JStanley on November 02, 2016, 11:02:42 PM
Post by: rollingb on November 02, 2016, 11:25:01 PM
Quote from: "JStanley"
All things considered and this being my first flinter, I am very happy with it and consider myself "hooked" on them for sure.And well you should be! :)
I remember back in 1969, when I went to my first rendevous,.... we had about 60 shooters, and on the last day it came down to me and an older fella with a custom-built rifle being "tied". The shoot-off for 1st. place was, we were each to take 3 shots at a playing card at 100 yds. off-hand.
After firing,... we both walked down to get our cards, and he had 2 complete holes in his card PLUS a "notch" cut out of the edge of his card.
Me???????,... I had 3 complete holes in my card. :hairy
Post by: Ohio Joe on November 03, 2016, 08:45:18 AM
To those that may get the wrong idea from MountainDevil's post of buying items from, Midway USA, and Track of the Wolf,,, both companies do and always will stand behind what they sell. I've known Larry Potterfield from Midway for many years, and the good folks at Track even longer.
Bottom line, they can't fix what's wrong (if there is anything wrong) unless they know about it. And they would certainly rather know about it then to have this kind of undocumented hear-say floating around out here like it is in this thread.
Post by: JStanley on November 03, 2016, 12:03:32 PM
Post by: Muley on November 07, 2016, 01:31:48 PM
Post by: RobD on November 07, 2016, 01:35:55 PM
do enjoy that rifle! :wave
Post by: Uncle Russ on November 07, 2016, 01:58:14 PM
Quote from: "Muley"
I was hoping they'd get the LH version better. I just got the gun and I was right. The vent liner is centered in the pan. I'm not usually that lucky.
Pete, I have owned a couple of GPR over the years, and I know of many folks today that own and shoot these rifles with no complaints.
All these things I've been reading about their poor quality just don't ring right in these old ears.
Of all the folks I have known that have owned and shot these rifles, I have never heard of a single rifle ever being sent back....I'm sure it has happened for some reason or another, but I suspect it was due more to damage that actual "poor quality".
There has simply got to be more to those horror stories than is meeting the eye.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Muley on November 07, 2016, 02:02:19 PM
I'll get her working perfect. The basic gun is good. It just needs some TLC.
Post by: Ohio Joe on November 07, 2016, 07:25:15 PM
Quote from: "Muley"
Yeah, there sure are a lot of compromises in life.
The last GPR flint I had I used 4F in the pan and 2F in the tube. I wasn't happy with that combination. I had a hard time keeping the 4F in the pan when hunting and it seemed to suck up moisture pretty easily. The 2F in the tube was ok, but my thought is 3F will ignite easier and maybe flow into the vent liner easier. Plus, I can use less for the same power as 2f for less fouling.
So, I ordered some Goex 3F and plan to use it in the tube and pan. Good plan or not?
I think I will try some 3f for priming and 3f down the tube as well. I haven't experience any problems as yet with 4f prime and 2f down the tube, but I was really taking my time getting a good zero off the bench at 50 yards, so I was really going over the check list between shots. Swab, clean out the vent with a pipe cleaner, load the tube, pick the vent, prime the pan, pick the vent again, wiped the frizzen,,, just really did any and everything I could think to do to make sure the rifle went off each time without a hitch and it did/does.
The one thing I didn't use with my GPR is the sights it came with. Many of us (if not all) have different eyesight of course and when I combine this with the sights the rifle came with, I decided to use the same type of sights as I use on my other rifles (I do make my own primitive fixed sights), and have for at least the last 12 to 15 years maybe longer). I'm just use to a certain sight height on my rifles, and I do like the wide rear V notch, and a thicker brass blade front sight. I just like the same sight picture on all my rifles. This is just me.
Post by: RobD on November 07, 2016, 07:37:03 PM
it's nice to have just one powder horn.
Post by: Ohio Joe on November 07, 2016, 07:45:15 PM
Post by: Hawken on November 08, 2016, 11:13:23 AM
YOU GUYS GO VOTE!!
Post by: Muley on November 08, 2016, 11:39:08 AM
So, one push from the primer is 3gr. Two pushes for 6gr looks just right to me. What do you guys think?
Post by: Hanshi on November 08, 2016, 12:24:23 PM
(http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt74/hanshi_photo/5ef46249-8073-452f-92b6-4aaa8c3949d2_zpsa430a117.jpg) (http://http)
Post by: Muley on November 08, 2016, 12:31:01 PM
Post by: RobD on November 08, 2016, 12:34:07 PM
Post by: Muley on November 08, 2016, 12:40:03 PM
I'll have to use the vent liner that came with the gun too. I didn't like the way the RMC threaded in, so i'm not going to use it.
Post by: RobD on November 08, 2016, 12:51:11 PM
Post by: Muley on November 08, 2016, 01:53:44 PM
Post by: RobD on November 08, 2016, 02:00:01 PM
Post by: Uncle Russ on November 08, 2016, 02:59:59 PM
I started out using FFFFg for priming and I've stuck with it.
Well, I can't say I have NEVER loaded the pan from a horn before because I can remember priming from a little flat primer horn many years ago....but that was a hit and & miss affair because I never put the same amount in pan each time, and I got a lot of pan flashes back in the early days.
I "think" my first priming flask, dispensing 3-4 grs FFFFg, came from DGW, about the same time I got my .69 smoothie....which would have been in the mid 1970's....It was advertised to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but so was the old Ultra-Hi that I bought at the same time.
Turner Kirkland must have sold a boat load of those old Ultra-Hi's, at less than 100 bucks each they were in demand, and many of those old guns are still around.
(I strongly suspect the reason the old Ultra-Hi' are still around is because they were made in Japan by Miruko, a very high quality name when it comes to all manner of firearms, even to this day.)
I like the idea of one powder for everything, but my brass priming flask is so small I carry it on a leather boot lace around my neck, it always there and it's always handy "without" ever having to put the plug back in it each time.
I've never measured just how much that little primer will hold but I guessing well over 100 / 150 grains.....dispensing 3 gr of FFFFg at a time it seems to last forever, much like a full can / pound of FFFFg, it's very much akin to that Energizer Bunny, it keeps going, and going, and.....
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Hawken on November 08, 2016, 04:00:41 PM
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/6/5488/30829899126_b4b800ffd1.jpg) (http://https)Untitled (http://https) by Sharps Man (http://https), on Flickr
(https://c5.staticflickr.com/6/5573/30830134676_4e517f408b_c.jpg) (http://https)flint2 (http://https) by Sharps Man (http://https), on Flickr
Post by: RobD on November 08, 2016, 04:13:52 PM
it's the way it was done circa any time before the 20th century, since at best perhaps 2f was all that was available. unless ya wetted down and mortar/pestle the powder finer, stick it in another horn for priming. don't know of such a thing in the 18th century, but maybe the 19th?
it's one less powder to be concerned about. all i need is a good 3f and that takes care of all my trad ml needs from .32 (oops, sold it!) to .62 (the new one is being built by jackie! "any day now" sez jackie ... yeah, in my dreams :applaud ).
having one horn really simplifies things, and, imo, is safer/faster/easier because only one big horn needs to be dealt with and moved behind the back for safety whence the trigger gets pulled.
it takes both volume and placement of the priming powder to be effective. just loading in the right amount ain't enuf. to do both is a simple skill that's easily learnt.
with just a bit of "tuning", 3f makes for durned Fast ignition. :)
Post by: Muley on November 08, 2016, 04:25:34 PM
Priming is always awkward for me, because i'm very right hand dominant but have to shoot left handed. So, i'm not as delicate with my left hand. The primer makes it easier.
Post by: RobD on November 08, 2016, 04:31:26 PM
Post by: Muley on November 08, 2016, 04:40:01 PM
I never need a big horn. More of what you'd call a day horn. I'm home every night when hunting. So, maybe the smaller horn will work for me. Not a priming horn and not a regular large horn. Something in between.
Post by: RobD on November 08, 2016, 04:46:28 PM
Post by: Hawken on November 08, 2016, 04:57:19 PM
Post by: Muley on November 08, 2016, 04:59:01 PM
Hunting I always hope to not need more than one shot.
Post by: Muley on November 08, 2016, 05:00:34 PM
Quote from: "Hawken"
If a MM had been privy to a 'brass primer'.....he'd have hollered "GLORY BE!"......and taken a shot of whiskey to celebrate the day!! :hairy ;)
Post by: RobD on November 08, 2016, 05:01:27 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/pO7wtVt.jpg)
Post by: Muley on November 08, 2016, 05:09:46 PM
btw..Love the camera. Thanks.
Post by: RobD on November 08, 2016, 05:19:00 PM
good on the camera, yer most welcome!
(http://i.imgur.com/xN8LrQd.jpg)
Post by: Muley on November 08, 2016, 05:20:39 PM
Post by: RobD on November 08, 2016, 05:28:40 PM
Quote from: "Muley"
Got a small horn you want to sell? ...
gotta see what's in the horn bin, might have one you can just have. soon as i get a bit more, er, mo-bile.
(http://i.imgur.com/o5xwqTM.jpg)
Post by: Muley on November 08, 2016, 05:32:53 PM
Post by: RobD on November 08, 2016, 05:36:11 PM
Post by: Muley on November 08, 2016, 05:41:36 PM
Post by: Muley on November 09, 2016, 07:59:54 AM
Thanks John :toast
This forum and it's members are the greatest.
Post by: Uncle Russ on November 09, 2016, 12:34:51 PM
Quote from: "Muley"
I'd like to thank publically amm1851 for sending me a small powder horn for free.
Thanks John :toast
This forum and it's members are the greatest.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: rollingb on November 09, 2016, 01:05:57 PM
Quote from: "Muley"
I'd like to thank publically amm1851 for sending me a small powder horn for free.I couldn't agree more! :hey-hey
Thanks John :toast
This forum and it's members are the greatest.
Post by: Ohio Joe on November 09, 2016, 03:24:12 PM
Post by: amm1851 on November 09, 2016, 08:38:31 PM
Post by: Muley on November 10, 2016, 08:22:19 AM
One thing was obvious. I used the pan primer. One push is 3gr. One push never worked. Two pushes (6gr) worked half the time. Three pushes (9gr) worked the best, but still not 100% of the time.
I'll keep working on it. I love the gun otherwise. I was only shooting at 25yds, but it shot 1" groups when it would fire. I wasn't concentrating on accuracy so much as getting it to fire off.
I watched some videos of flintlocks being shot. The guns that didn't have a vent liner had what looked like huge touch holes. Almost like mine with the vent liner not installed. The hole in my vent liner looked tiny compared to those guns touch holes that didn't use a vent liner. Am I seeing things?
Post by: RobD on November 10, 2016, 08:28:09 AM
some folks find drilling out the touch hole to .062 helps with ignition.
Post by: Muley on November 10, 2016, 08:51:04 AM
I wiped the pan, frizzen, and flint clean with an alcohol patch. I picked the hole before and after loading the load. I tried black English flints and actually got better results with a cut agate flint, but I need to try the English flint again.
I suspect the breech channel may be plugged a bit since the seller didn't seem to take care of the gun. Not sure that would cause a FIP though. Why would it work good sometimes?
I always get a FIP. Wouldn't that eliminate any problem with the flint or frizzen? One time it took me 5 tries to fire off the load. All FIP and I finally got it to fire by using a lot of powder in the pan. What would cause that? The vent liner seems to be in the perfect position to the pan.
Post by: RobD on November 10, 2016, 09:00:46 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/Hf8CkpI.jpg)
Post by: Muley on November 10, 2016, 09:10:21 AM
Am I right about a FIP Rob? If I fire off the pan powder everytime, but the load doesn't fire. The problem isn't the flint/frizzen/pan powder? I'm trying to eliminate what isn't a problem.
Post by: RobD on November 10, 2016, 09:13:22 AM
Post by: Muley on November 10, 2016, 09:22:27 AM
How would you keep the powder in one position when hunting? While carrying the gun the powder will move in the pan no? No way can I prime right before the shot. I'm a still hunter and keep moving. When I take a shot it's usually done pretty fast. No time and too much movement to do before shooting.
Post by: RobD on November 10, 2016, 09:26:18 AM
take a pic of the touch hole and pan - want to see it's location.
Post by: Muley on November 10, 2016, 09:40:49 AM
Trying the powder in the pan away from the vent liner didn't work as good as having the whole bottom of the pan covered in powder.
I'll have to D/L a manual for the camera to figure it out. Not just taking the picture, but getting the picture on my computer.
I'll tell you though. The vent liner is in the perfect sunset position in the middle of the pan. I don't think it's the problem. Sometimes the load shoots perfect. Other times just a FIP. I'm trying to repeat the process exactly the same everytime. What does that tell us?
Should I just go buy an 1/8" drill and see if the hole is that big, and drill it if it isn't. I have no way to measure it right now. I should also go shoot again to see if the flushing I did last night did some good.
Post by: RobD on November 10, 2016, 09:47:40 AM
are you cleaning out all of the barrel between shots - barrel, ante-chamber and touch hole/flue?
Post by: Muley on November 10, 2016, 09:49:35 AM
I would have figured it out when I saw the drill.
Post by: Muley on November 10, 2016, 09:55:16 AM
I haven't been using the breech brush though. I didn't think it would build up that fast. I've taken 50 shots with a caplock without cleaning it until I was home.
I use this brush.
MSM Breech Brush - October Country (http://www.octobercountry.com/msm-breech-brush/)
Post by: rollingb on November 10, 2016, 10:03:42 AM
Quote from: "Rob DiStefano"
THIS is why i like the ability to take off a breech plug and find out exactly what's going on inside. this is particularly true with patent breech plugs that have both an ante-chamber and flue. at this point, i'd clean the barrel real good as best you can, use a .22 brush with a patch to get into the ante-chamber, too. scrub away! any roughness or pitting or residue will impede ignition. all metal surfaces smooth and clean. experiment with different locations of the priming powder in the pan.Rob,....when I lived in Alaska, I had a fella bring me his Lyman GPR because he could only get it to fire after snapping 3 to 6 percussion caps. :rt th
(http://i.imgur.com/Hf8CkpI.jpg)
Muley,... if you have no way of pulling your breech-plug,....you might try removing the touch-hole liner, and looking through the touch-hole while shining a light down the rifle's bore,... just to see if you're able to see a goodly amount of light that way.
Post by: RobD on November 10, 2016, 10:07:41 AM
so, clean everything out to shiny metal so you can discount that as an ignition issue. clean well between shots, and that includes the ante-chamber. for the pan, frizzen and flint, i'd use a cloth and really rub 'em all good - i found that brushes don't do as good a job for me as a piece of cotton flannel cloth. pour in the powder charge, thump the barrel to make sure it's settling into the ante-chamber, seat the patched ball good so it'll compress the powder under it AND in the ante-chamber. pick the touch hole good 'n' deep - you want a big channel for the heat of the pan flash to ignite the main charge. start with 2/3rds of the pan full of powder, and leave a little space between the powder and the touch hole.
take a pic. use the cord that came with it to plug it into a computer. turn on the camera and it'll connect to the computer and show you a folder where the image(s) are kept. use this forum's attachment feature to put pics in yer post. that's about it.
Post by: rollingb on November 10, 2016, 10:09:36 AM
Quote from: "Muley"
I'm running a spit patch and two dry patches in the bore between shots. I've done that for decades with caplocks. I also pick the vent liner with a torchtip cleaner before and after loading. I even bounce the ramrod on the load like you do. Something I never did before.Are you using 3F or 2F powder?
I haven't been using the breech brush though. I didn't think it would build up that fast. I've taken 50 shots with a caplock without cleaning it until I was home.
I use this brush.
MSM Breech Brush - October Country (http://www.octobercountry.com/msm-breech-brush/)
Post by: RobD on November 10, 2016, 10:12:37 AM
Post by: Muley on November 10, 2016, 10:32:00 AM
Can I pay someone to do that for me. I used to have a nice workshop, but that went with the house. I can't do a thing in my apartment.
I've owned guns for 65 years and muzzleloaders since the late 70's. I was an auto mechanic for 30 years. So I have a bit of mechanical ability.
I appreciate the help. I'll figure it out.
I can always convert it to caplock.
Post by: RobD on November 10, 2016, 10:41:38 AM
but do pull the vent liner and do as rondo sez, check out that it's clear and open to the flue.
Post by: amm1851 on November 10, 2016, 10:50:27 AM
Post by: rollingb on November 10, 2016, 10:52:36 AM
Quote from: "Rob DiStefano"
i don't think you'll need to pull the plug........ and if you're not sure of the amount of light visible, try running the cleaning rod with a .22 caliber brush on it into the ante-chamber (as Rob first suggested) and see if you can see the brush.
but do pull the vent liner and do as rondo sez, check out that it's clear and open to the flue.
Post by: rollingb on November 10, 2016, 10:57:11 AM
Quote from: "amm1851"
I would also consider drilling out the touch hole to 1/16. I had lots of flashes in the pan with my rifle until I did that. Also, consider getting some 4f to prime with. If there are other flint shooters in your area, or perhaps a club, I am sure somebody could give you enough 4f to try it out short of buying a whole pound.That,..... or even as big as 5/64" (that's what I have all my flinters drilled out to).
Post by: Muley on November 10, 2016, 11:02:56 AM
On to plan B.
Post by: Muley on November 10, 2016, 11:22:11 AM
So, I know the hole is 1/16" and breech channel is clear. I'm getting a good spark and the powder i'm using is right. I use alcohol swabs on the flint, pan, and frizzen between shots. I clean the bore between shots. Nothing to do but go shoot it again.
Good thing caplock barrels and locks are expensive from Lyman.
Post by: amm1851 on November 10, 2016, 11:55:13 AM
Post by: Muley on November 10, 2016, 12:07:17 PM
This is my 2nd GPR flint. I did give up on the first one. I won't do it this time. I'm trying to use the same powder for pan and tube, because I know that's how it was done with the MM. I can't join the AMM, but I like how they do things and that's what I want to do. My plans are to dress like the MM did in 1830-1840's full time. I'm sure i'll get some chuckles, but who cares. It's not my style to play dress up for just events. I have to become my persona full time to be happy with myself.
So, my mind is set on using a flintlock. I'll get it working or die trying. A custom Hawken with a good lock would make life easier, but I have to work with what I can afford.
I'll say one thing to the postal shooters. You have no worries from me beating you. I don't think i'll ever be as accurate with a flint as I am with a caplock. I may be wrong, but I don't think so. I'll give it 100% though and have fun trying.
Post by: rollingb on November 10, 2016, 12:09:38 PM
If you don't have any 4F,.... try grinding some 3F up finer using a wooden bowel and the big end of a baseball bat. (if handy :laffing )
..... or something similar.
Post by: rollingb on November 10, 2016, 12:11:55 PM
Quote from: "Muley"
I'm not actually serious about changing to caplock. I have a little voice in my head telling me to do it, but I never listen to that guy.That's the spirit!!!!!!! :hey-hey
This is my 2nd GPR flint. I did give up on the first one. I won't do it this time. I'm trying to use the same powder for pan and tube, because I know that's how it was done with the MM. I can't join the AMM, but I like how they do things and that's what I want to do. My plans are to dress like the MM did in 1830-1840's full time. I'm sure i'll get some chuckles, but who cares. It's not my style to play dress up for just events. I have to become my persona full time to be happy with myself.
So, my mind is set on using a flintlock. I'll get it working or die trying. A custom Hawken with a good lock would make life easier, but I have to work with what I can afford.
I'll say one thing to the postal shooters. You have no worries from me beating you. I don't think i'll ever be as accurate with a flint as I am with a caplock. I may be wrong, but I don't think so. I'll give it 100% though and have fun trying.
Post by: Muley on November 10, 2016, 12:14:19 PM
Quote from: "rollingb"
I agree, don't give up yet.
If you don't have any 4F,.... try grinding some 3F up finer using a wooden bowel and the big end of a baseball bat. (if handy :laffing )
..... or something similar. :bl th up
Post by: rollingb on November 10, 2016, 12:50:41 PM
Quote from: "Muley"
You're trying to get rid of me so you won't have to shoot against me huh?
Good plan. :laffing
Seriously though,.... as long as you grind the powder by using something made of wood you are safe,... some folks use 2 spoons to do it. :hairy
Post by: Muley on November 10, 2016, 12:59:16 PM
The second problem is I couldn't keep the powder in the pan when hunting. I couldn't figure out where it was leaking out. I'd put powder in the pan, close the frizzen and shake the gun, turn it upside down and up and down. Open the frizzen and the pan was full. Yet when walking along hunting i'd open the frizzen and the pan was empty. I was baffled and swore on the spot i'd never buy 4F again.
That's my 4F story and i'm sticking to it.
Post by: rollingb on November 10, 2016, 01:07:49 PM
Quote from: "Muley"
The only reason I didn't use 4F this time was the problems I had with my last GPR. During rainy/snowy weather I had a hard time keeping the 4F dry. It sucked up moisture like a sponge and I had the lock covered.
The second problem is I couldn't keep the powder in the pan when hunting. I couldn't figure out where it was leaking out. I'd put powder in the pan, close the frizzen and shake the gun, turn it upside down and up and down. Open the frizzen and the pan was full. Yet when walking along hunting i'd open the frizzen and the pan was empty. I was baffled and swore on the spot i'd never buy 4F again.
That's my 4F story and i'm sticking to it. :shock:
Post by: Muley on November 10, 2016, 01:13:10 PM
Post by: JStanley on November 10, 2016, 01:30:02 PM
(http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx185/jackeystanley/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_2381_zpsostwsxei.jpg)
I took it out, carefully wrapped it in electrical tape and filed the powder side until it was flush with the sidewall of the antechamber.
(http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx185/jackeystanley/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_2382_zpso3wm67mr.jpg)
This made a big difference in the perceived lock time. You don't especially need a borescope but just a file. it was about 2 threads worth of material that I removed in all to achieve the improved results. (sorry for the grainy pics, gotta take a picture of the video display on the borescope)
Post by: Muley on November 10, 2016, 01:34:09 PM
Post by: rollingb on November 10, 2016, 01:51:42 PM
Quote from: "Muley"
I feel better now that I have the answer. Must be doing it during one of my naps.Yup!
Question,.... did you ever notice any primin' powder in your lock when you removed it for cleaning?
On some flinters,.... with a low positioned liner and the liner's screwdriver slot positioned straight "up and down" the prime can possibly sneak out of the pan and into the lock and mortise.
Post by: RobD on November 10, 2016, 01:53:35 PM
Post by: Muley on November 10, 2016, 01:57:23 PM
Now that I think about it. My old GPR was never the fastest flintlock, but it always fired. I wouldn't have taken it hunting otherwise.
Well, I had lunch, so time to go shoot. Fingers crossed.
Post by: Muley on November 10, 2016, 01:58:40 PM
Post by: Ohio Joe on November 10, 2016, 08:22:53 PM
Quote from: "rollingb"
Quote from: "Muley"I feel better now that I have the answer. Must be doing it during one of my naps.Yup!
Question,.... did you ever notice any primin' powder in your lock when you removed it for cleaning?
On some flinters,.... with a low positioned liner and the liner's screwdriver slot positioned straight "up and down" the prime can possibly sneak out of the pan and into the lock and mortise.
You're absolutely right RollingB... I usually push in just a tad of beeswax on the lower part of my slotted liner even though it's at a 1:00 O'clock angle, but a lttle preventive beeswax here certainly doesn't hurt. I expect a person could even put a dab of JB Weld there as well and not affect the screwdriver in the slot.
Post by: Muley on November 10, 2016, 08:41:15 PM
Flash in the pan on the 3rd shot even though I was very careful to do everything the same. It took 6 more tries to finally get it to fire. I just kept repeating the same routine and it fired perfectly on the 6th try. Does that make sense. I then experimented from that point on with the amount and placement of the powder in the pan. Nothing worked at that point. 4-6 times to finally get it to fire. I finally gave up when nothing was left to try.
I'm going to work on the vent liner. Taper the front hole. Drill to 5/64". Grind off two threads. I also ordered some Tom Fuller flints. I checked the breech channel and it's clear.
If that doesn't work. The gun is a wall hanger and i'll buy a caplock. Unless I can find a caplock LH .54 GPR barrel and lock. LOL..good luck with that dream.
Post by: RobD on November 10, 2016, 10:01:16 PM
the only caveat, and it'll be a big one, is that i couldn't work on it 'til next year.
Post by: rollingb on November 10, 2016, 11:39:26 PM
Quote from: "Muley"
Well, that didn't go well. First two shots were perfect. Well, close to perfect. Stil a slight pause, but I can live with it.Once you've done those things you've exhausted everything I can think of. :rt th
Flash in the pan on the 3rd shot even though I was very careful to do everything the same. It took 6 more tries to finally get it to fire. I just kept repeating the same routine and it fired perfectly on the 6th try. Does that make sense. I then experimented from that point on with the amount and placement of the powder in the pan. Nothing worked at that point. 4-6 times to finally get it to fire. I finally gave up when nothing was left to try.
I'm going to work on the vent liner. Taper the front hole. Drill to 5/64". Grind off two threads. I also ordered some Tom Fuller flints. I checked the breech channel and it's clear.
If that doesn't work. The gun is a wall hanger and i'll buy a caplock. Unless I can find a caplock LH .54 GPR barrel and lock. LOL..good luck with that dream.
Post by: Ohio Joe on November 11, 2016, 09:17:00 AM
Before the 1st shot I make sure the flint is tight in the jaws.
After the 1st shot I check for tightness of the flint once again.
After the 2nd shot I once again check for tightness of the jaws.
Next; The flint the rifle comes with is not to bad, but it's not a Black English Flint, and BEF's are way better in my opinion and much sharper for a better shower of sparks off the frizzen.
Okay, gotta head to work. Later friends!
Post by: Muley on November 11, 2016, 09:34:44 AM
Quote from: "Ohio Joe"
Hello Muley, I just want to chime in before heading off to work. Don't know if this has been discussed yet, but one thing I do with all my flintlocks is;
Before the 1st shot I make sure the flint is tight in the jaws.
After the 1st shot I check for tightness of the flint once again.
After the 2nd shot I once again check for tightness of the jaws.
Next; The flint the rifle comes with is not to bad, but it's not a Black English Flint, and BEF's are way better in my opinion and much sharper for a better shower of sparks off the frizzen.
Okay, gotta head to work. Later friends!
Thanks Joe. It's not my problem though. The pan powder is always fired off. My problem is getting the flame into the barrel.
One time when I was on the 3rd or 5th time trying to fire off the load I put a lot of powder in the pan. It was like a little bon fire going off in the pan, but the load didn't fire. I laughed when I saw the flame.
Post by: Muley on November 11, 2016, 09:44:53 AM
Quote from: "Rob DiStefano"
worse case scenario, send it to me, i'll pay shipping both ways, and i will make it work well. period.
the only caveat, and it'll be a big one, is that i couldn't work on it 'til next year.
I may have to take you up on that Rob, but i'll pay for the shipping.
Couple of things I want to try first. I'm convince the lock and flint are fine. The pan powder always fires. So, my attention is on the vent liner. Today i'm going to drill out the vent liner pretty big. Just to see if it helps. If it does i'm going to try the Chambers White Lightning vent liner.
This is depending on whether my gunsmith will install the Chambers vent liner. I'd rather not try doing it. He won't work on muzzleloaders, so I don't know if I can talk him into it. If he won't maybe you can do it for me when you have time?
I'll mention this again. When I see pictures or videos on flintlocks with no vent liner, but just a touch hole drilled in the barrel. The holes look huge compared to the hole in my vent liner. Am I seeing things?
Post by: RobD on November 11, 2016, 10:01:27 AM
it's not the flame that ignites the chamber powder, it's the high temp radiant heat of the pan flash.
there are many parts to the process of loading a flintlock. if one of these steps has issues, so does the ignition sequence, which compromises reliability, there needs to be a clear and open path in the touch hole to allow that super hot air reach in and touch the kernals of 3f in the ante-chamber. that chamber needs to clean and DRY, and compacted with 3f powder that's been indented by the vent picking that was done prior to shooting. the vent hole needs to be open and clear. the frizzen and sharp edge of the flint need to be clean. and so on ......
Post by: Muley on November 11, 2016, 10:11:51 AM
I've just been reading about the Chambers vent liner. I feel I have to go that way with my setup. I think it will not only help with reliable fire every time, but speed up the process too. I'd love to get it feeling like shooting a caplock. I don't think that's possible when using vent liners like I have now. I'm going to order the White Lightning now. It's cheap, but getting it installed may not be.
Post by: RobD on November 11, 2016, 10:13:15 AM
Post by: RobD on November 11, 2016, 10:20:08 AM
Print Page - Installing a White Lightning T.H. liner? (http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=25683.0)
Post by: Muley on November 11, 2016, 10:24:42 AM
Well, I have no plan now.
Post by: RobD on November 11, 2016, 10:29:50 AM
however, before going down that road, pull out the vent liner you have, get a good look inside the ante-chamber and just by measuring the vent's length and thickness of the barrel wall at the ante-chamber, if the vent liner is a tad too long, file it down. open the hole up to about .070" #50 drill bit, screw the liner back in with anti-seize lube.
Post by: Muley on November 11, 2016, 10:38:26 AM
Not sure how to fix this?
Post by: RobD on November 11, 2016, 10:39:24 AM
Post by: Muley on November 11, 2016, 10:49:11 AM
When the sunset position is talked about. It doesn't mean the bottom of the vent liner, but it means the hole right? Mine isn't even close to that.
Post by: Muley on November 11, 2016, 10:53:00 AM
LUXURY LINER | FLOYD FILES (https://floydpics.wordpress.com/2014/06/19/luxury-liner/)
Post by: RobD on November 11, 2016, 11:01:23 AM
Post by: Muley on November 11, 2016, 11:12:06 AM
Just imagine mine is higher than Stanley's. His looks too high to me and mine is higher. From what i'm reading the hole should be down to the pan.
Post by: RobD on November 11, 2016, 11:52:23 AM
open the vent hole to 5/4" (.078), and chamfer the outside of the touch hole (that faces the pan) just a little, with a drill bit, by hand. see what that does for ya. the last thing to do with that liner is to cone the insides of it a LOT.
(http://forum.gon.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=404004&d=1256677927)
re mortising the lock up is invasive and might be done. dittos for adding a pan liner, to bring its height up.
Post by: Muley on November 11, 2016, 11:55:47 AM
Slow flintlock ignition Part 1 - Georgia Outdoor News Forum (http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=431917)
Post by: rollingb on November 11, 2016, 11:56:45 AM
Quote from: "Rob DiStefano"
i agree - everything seems to be pointing to vent liner. it needs to be internally flush with the barrel and its hole uniformly open. internally that hole can also be coned. remove it, get it filed flush to the barrel wall, open the hole up to 5/64".Great post. :shock:).
it's not the flame that ignites the chamber powder, it's the high temp radiant heat of the pan flash.
there are many parts to the process of loading a flintlock. if one of these steps has issues, so does the ignition sequence, which compromises reliability, there needs to be a clear and open path in the touch hole to allow that super hot air reach in and touch the kernals of 3f in the ante-chamber. that chamber needs to clean and DRY, and compacted with 3f powder that's been indented by the vent picking that was done prior to shooting. the vent hole needs to be open and clear. the frizzen and sharp edge of the flint need to be clean. and so on ......
The reason I think the "pick" might be busting up a few kernels of powder, is due to the sound or feel you get from the "crunch" when picking a vent hole,... is the pick busting up a few kernels of the compacted powder instead of simply "pushing them aside" as in a loose load, I don't know?
A simple experiment could be done,... by removing the gun's lock and "picking" a tightly compacted loaded barrel while holding it (with the vent hole pointed DOWN over a sheet of typing paper) and tapping the barrel to see if a small amount of DUST comes out on the paper.
As said above, I've always thought about doing this but I've just never taken the time to actually do it.
Sorry for my rambling.
Post by: RobD on November 11, 2016, 12:06:26 PM
Post by: Muley on November 11, 2016, 12:07:01 PM
Post by: RobD on November 11, 2016, 12:18:50 PM
Quote from: "Muley"
I started to use Rob's method of bouncing the ramrod. That's a much tighter than I was using before. I definitely get the crunching when picking it.
that's the reason for rod bouncing - a uniform compaction (compression) of the powder, each and every time. no guessing. the rod tells ya when it's reached optimum compression. the by-product is that if there was a LOT of fouling down at the chamber area, sometimes pushing the rod will make ya think the patched ball is seated when in reality it ain't and there's a bit of an air space happening that you really can't tell by checking the ramrod's full load mark (if you made one).
Post by: Muley on November 11, 2016, 12:29:28 PM
TOW flintlock kit update 10 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcXmytm0CPI)
I'm a dummy. I just realized when typing that out that the frizzen is shoved out of the way before the pan is ignited.
Ok, that changes everything. Back to the Chambers vent liner. I just read someone putting the Chambers VL in his GPR and it's as fast now as his custom guns with Siler locks. Not sure that's true but it's encouraging.
Post by: RobD on November 11, 2016, 12:33:54 PM
Post by: JStanley on November 11, 2016, 12:52:25 PM
Quote from: "Muley"
Good article and warning on buying the White Lightning from TOW.
LUXURY LINER | FLOYD FILES (https://floydpics.wordpress.com/2014/06/19/luxury-liner/)
After viewing this article, I had a thought that took me back to my OP. If I installed an authentic Chambers 5/16-32 liner and offset the new hole like shown below, the result will be a vent nearly dead on center with the pan. It would move around .076" toward the muzzle. Instead of plugging the 6mm hole, just cutting the new hole will solve the problem. Any holes in my thought process?
(http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx185/jackeystanley/eb09bdf1-d881-47f0-8bab-44e1cd324d07_zpsccpwpi8o.png)
Post by: Muley on November 11, 2016, 12:55:34 PM
Instead of drilling the hole more sideways like you, I wonder if mine could be drill lower?
Post by: JStanley on November 11, 2016, 01:00:28 PM
Quote from: "Muley"
I didn't realize the hole would be that much bigger. I'll be well past the top of the flat.
Instead of drilling the hole more sideways like you, I wonder if mine could be drill lower?
As long as the real estate on that barrel flat allows, you should be able to. The difference of .076" would be applied to how far down the circle cuts instead of how far you moved the center of the hole. I'm guessing for yours, the Chambers liner would simply be drilled on the same center as your current vent since it is so nicely centered on the pan.
Post by: rollingb on November 11, 2016, 01:06:02 PM
Quote from: "JStanley"
Quote from: "Muley"Good article and warning on buying the White Lightning from TOW.
LUXURY LINER | FLOYD FILES (https://floydpics.wordpress.com/2014/06/19/luxury-liner/)
After viewing this article, I had a thought that took me back to my OP. If I installed an authentic Chambers 5/16-32 liner and offset the new hole like shown below, the result will be a vent nearly dead on center with the pan. It would move around .076" toward the muzzle. Instead of plugging the 6mm hole, just cutting the new hole will solve the problem. Any holes in my thought process? :rt th
Post by: Hawken on November 11, 2016, 01:10:32 PM
Post by: JStanley on November 11, 2016, 01:15:00 PM
Quote from: "rollingb"
JStanley,... you might want to have someone with an end mill do that work for you, a regular drill press and drill-bit will have the tendency to want to follow the original hole (even when clamped in a good drill-press vice) resulting in a slightly tapered egg-shaped hole you won't be happy with. :hey-hey Definitely gonna have to wait til after deer season though.........
Post by: Muley on November 11, 2016, 01:18:05 PM
Quote from: "JStanley"
Quote from: "rollingb"JStanley,... you might want to have someone with an end mill do that work for you, a regular drill press and drill-bit will have the tendency to want to follow the original hole (even when clamped in a good drill-press vice) resulting in a slightly tapered egg-shaped hole you won't be happy with. :hey-hey Definitely gonna have to wait til after deer season though......... ;)
Post by: rollingb on November 11, 2016, 01:29:48 PM
Quote from: "JStanley"
Quote from: "rollingb"JStanley,... you might want to have someone with an end mill do that work for you, a regular drill press and drill-bit will have the tendency to want to follow the original hole (even when clamped in a good drill-press vice) resulting in a slightly tapered egg-shaped hole you won't be happy with. :hey-hey Definitely gonna have to wait til after deer season though......... :hairy :(
........ and a lathe :(
........ and a rifling-machine :laffing
Post by: Muley on November 11, 2016, 01:40:18 PM
Well, I just ordered the White Lightning from Jim. I know i'll get the right one that way. With the barrel off it's actually centered on the flat pretty close. The flat is 3/8" and I ordered the 5/16" liner. It should just fit perfect.
Since the breech plug needs to be removed and should really be drilled with a drill press. I can't do it and my gunsmith won't do it. I just asked.
Any suggestings on who I can get to do it?
I'm not going to mess with my present vent liner. I won't shoot again until I get this installed. It's too aggravating to get all the flash in the pans. I've had enough for a lifetime.
Post by: JStanley on November 11, 2016, 02:34:20 PM
Quote from: "rollingb"
:hey-hey You lucky guy,.... I wish I had an end mill. :(
........ and a stock-duplicator :(
........ and a host of other cool toys. :happyQuote from: "Muley"Any interest in installing mine? You can experiment on me.
If you aren't in a big hurry Pete, PM me and we can talk timing.......like Rob said, won't be until after the first of the year, probably.
Post by: JStanley on November 11, 2016, 02:51:48 PM
Quote from: "Muley"
Cripes! I don't even have a vice.
Well, I just ordered the White Lightning from Jim. I know i'll get the right one that way. With the barrel off it's actually centered on the flat pretty close. The flat is 3/8" and I ordered the 5/16" liner. It should just fit perfect.
Since the breech plug needs to be removed and should really be drilled with a drill press. I can't do it and my gunsmith won't do it. I just asked.
Any suggestings on who I can get to do it?
I'm not going to mess with my present vent liner. I won't shoot again until I get this installed. It's too aggravating to get all the flash in the pans. I've had enough for a lifetime.
You veterans correct me if I'm wrong but since the vent is installed completely within the confines of the BP and the patent breech antechamber on a GPR (at least mine is), why couldn't the barrel just be chucked up nice and square in a milling machine for the whole process and leave the BP in place?
Post by: rollingb on November 11, 2016, 03:00:27 PM
Quote from: "JStanley"
I see no reason the breech plug has to be removed from the barrel.Quote from: "Muley"Cripes! I don't even have a vice.
Well, I just ordered the White Lightning from Jim. I know i'll get the right one that way. With the barrel off it's actually centered on the flat pretty close. The flat is 3/8" and I ordered the 5/16" liner. It should just fit perfect.
Since the breech plug needs to be removed and should really be drilled with a drill press. I can't do it and my gunsmith won't do it. I just asked.
Any suggestings on who I can get to do it?
I'm not going to mess with my present vent liner. I won't shoot again until I get this installed. It's too aggravating to get all the flash in the pans. I've had enough for a lifetime.
You veterans correct me if I'm wrong but since the vent is installed completely within the confines of the BP and the patent breech antechamber on a GPR (at least mine is), why couldn't the barrel just be chucked up nice and square in a milling machine for the whole process and leave the BP in place?
Post by: RobD on November 11, 2016, 03:06:37 PM
Post by: Muley on November 11, 2016, 03:55:50 PM
Remove breechplug and make sure your new touchhole will not interfere with the breechplug.
Remove the old vent liner, and re drill with the appropriate size bit, for a 5/16" its a 9/32 or letter L bit.
Counter sink that hole slightly. Maybe 1/64?? I'm guessing. This will determine how thick the remaining wall is between the main charge and primer.
Tap the hole with the appropriate tap.
Install new liner till it bottoms out.
Cut off exterior of liner and file to the barrel flat.
Check the inside of the barrel, touch up any areas where the liner may have come through or burrs.
Reinstall breechplug. I usually open the touch hole slightly.
I won't use any thing but a White lightning.!!
Post by: Muley on November 11, 2016, 04:02:28 PM
This is a spin-off from another thread, "Breech Plug Question". I don't mean this to be a tutorial, just an account of tips and trials. Please step up and correct me if I'm wrong- another DON'T.
I have often thought that "How To" instructions should also come with "How Not to Do" instructions. When considering a vent liner, the first consideration should be whether or not it will fit in the barrel without hitting the breech plug. So this means positioning the lock forward enough so this won't happen. Giving credit where credit is due, it was Dennis Glazener who told me to wait on installing the liner untill the barrel was inlet and the lock installed. In other words- DON'T install it until you can line it up with the pan, not the other way around.
And DON'T position your lock so far back that the liner ends up in the breech plug.
I had ordered my liner from Jim Chambers and he offered to send the appropriate drill and tap with it. I accepted his offer- That's a DO.
I read the instructions included and followed them as best I could, another DO.
I tried to stop the tap from going all the way through, but it wouldn't seat properly and I ended up tapping it a little deeper. It went all the way through and I thought it was wrong, but it did seat it the countersink. I thought all was well, cut and filed the liner and put the gun back together- DON'T. After running my cleaning scraper down the bore, I realized it was hitting the liner inside the bore. So I had to take the barrel back out, remove the breech plug and grind the liner off INSIDE the barrel. DON'T. Fortunately this was a .54 smoothbore and it was not a problem.
The light bulb went off this morning when I read KYflinter's post in the other thread. DO leave the extra material and screw slot on the liner until you know all is well on the inside of the bore. DO NOT cut it off until you know and correct it.
So now I'm getting ready to put a liner in another barrel. It's a 13/16 .40 rifled barrel from Getz. I had measured the wall of the barrel and saw that the liner was longer than the wall of the barrel, so this same thing is going to happen. I don't know how to gauge the length I should leave. I mean, What if it breaks through where the rifling crosses? Or is the wall thickness too thin to start with? Maybe it's not even thick enough to worry about a liner.
So for now I'm at DON't do anything just yet. What would you do?
Title: Re: White Lightning vent liner- Do's and Don'ts
Post by: E.vonAschwege on March 05, 2015, 12:33:53 PM
Nord - great listing of DOs and DON'Ts for installing a White Lightnin liner. I agree with all of the tips, and I do always try to make it so the liner doesn't interfere with the breech plug. Sometimes despite our best efforts that isn't possible, and it is considered by most to be an acceptable practice to dish the breech plug SLIGHTLY (the amount depends on the depth of the plug, I've dished by 1/16" before) if needed to accommodate a liner. This of course means the liner must be measured for depth, filed so it doesn't protrude into the bore, breech plug installed, then liner installed, locking it all together.
Post by: RobD on November 11, 2016, 04:19:18 PM
Post by: Muley on November 11, 2016, 04:27:39 PM
Post by: RobD on November 11, 2016, 04:30:33 PM
Post by: Muley on November 11, 2016, 04:32:23 PM
Post by: RobD on November 11, 2016, 04:38:29 PM
Post by: Muley on November 11, 2016, 04:53:37 PM
The weather is still nice now. I have to find a way to get it done. I refuse to shoot it as is. It makes me want to sell the gun.
Post by: RobD on November 11, 2016, 04:56:42 PM
why don't'cha pull the dang liner, cone the inside (if possible - if not, then so be it to that) and drill it out to 5/64", chamfer the outside opening a tad. this WILL help. might even FIX.
Post by: Muley on November 11, 2016, 05:04:02 PM
I'm afraid to go try it. I can't stand it when it takes 5-6 times to shoot out a load if it doesn't work. I'm trying to not get mad at the gun again.
I have Tom Fuller flints coming. Plus a hickory ramrod and the stock front sight and the primitive non adjustable rear sight from Lyman. I just want to get the gun the way I want it and go shoot it before winter comes. We're having really warm weather for Oct and Nov. It won't last.
Post by: RobD on November 11, 2016, 05:06:10 PM
Post by: rollingb on November 11, 2016, 06:28:20 PM
Quote from: "Rob DiStefano"
the reason for the breech removal is to file flat the liner to meet flush with the ante-chamber wall - IF that needs to be done. you'll know once you pull the old liner and measure the patent breech ante-chamber's thickness versus the length of the new liner.My thinking is,.... since the GPR has a "patent breech" and it's a lot thicker than the barrel's wall, the length of the WL liner shouldn't be a problem.
But.... you're right, the ONLY way to know for sure is to pull the old liner and do some actual measurein'. :rt th
Post by: Muley on November 11, 2016, 06:40:21 PM
I'll go try my hogged out vent liner now. If it fails I still have hope with the Chambers vent liner.
Post by: JStanley on November 11, 2016, 06:58:58 PM
Post by: RobD on November 11, 2016, 07:05:33 PM
but if it is, and the plug needs pullin by any TMA full member, i'd be more than happy to send out my rice clamps and wrench.
Post by: rollingb on November 11, 2016, 07:52:28 PM
Quote from: "Rob DiStefano"
i think rondo's right, won't be an issue.I have a set of those clamps too, in case anyone needs to remove a 15/16" breech plug and Rob's clamps are "out on loan".
but if it is, and the plug needs pullin by any TMA full member, i'd be more than happy to send out my rice clamps and wrench.
Post by: JStanley on November 11, 2016, 11:22:17 PM
Post by: RobD on November 12, 2016, 09:30:24 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/fsFx3bD.png)
Post by: Muley on November 12, 2016, 09:46:27 AM
One of the problems is the present Lyman vent liner needs to be centered on the flat or you'll run out of room. The flat is 3/8" The outside diameter of the stock VL is 1/4". The WL liner is 5/16". So, not much wiggle room if the Lyman VL isn't centered on the flat. I'm lucky and mine is dead center, so it shouldn't be a problem.
Just one more thing to look at. Probably not a real big deal. If the WL hung over the flat a bit you could file it to match.
The builder who is doing mine has done many before, and he said it's only a 15 min job. It would be for me, but he told me he's been building flintlocks for 44 years. That makes a little difference.
Post by: JStanley on November 22, 2016, 11:54:36 AM
Post by: rollingb on November 22, 2016, 12:35:09 PM
Post by: JStanley on December 04, 2016, 03:04:20 PM
Be blessed.
Post by: RobD on December 04, 2016, 03:27:57 PM
Post by: Maven on December 04, 2016, 03:31:33 PM
Post by: rollingb on December 04, 2016, 03:41:54 PM
Post by: Muley on December 04, 2016, 05:33:28 PM
Post by: JStanley on December 04, 2016, 05:44:58 PM
Quote from: "Muley"
How do you get the liner out? I had Chambers send mine directly to Mark, so I never got to see it.You don't take this liner out for cleaning like you do those with screw driver slots or hex head sockets, etc. When installing, I counter bored it a tad short so the final position was a slight interference (crush) fit, to make the edges less likely to hold water & rust. Finally, I used a Birchwood Casey gun blue Sharpie to run a little bluing into the seam around the chamfered edge just as an added safety measure. When the touch hole finally wears out, you simply use the proper drill/easy out combo and it will release. I also used a little anti-seize before final installation. Since this gun has a wedged barrel, pumping the water through the barrel is still pretty easy. If it were a pinned full stock, you would just clean like you do a non-vent liner equipped rifle; toothpick in the hole trick.
Post by: Ohio Joe on December 04, 2016, 05:45:54 PM
Post by: JStanley on December 04, 2016, 05:48:29 PM
Post by: Muley on December 04, 2016, 05:53:09 PM
Quote from: "JStanley"
Quote from: "Muley"How do you get the liner out? I had Chambers send mine directly to Mark, so I never got to see it.You don't take this liner out for cleaning like you do those with screw driver slots or hex head sockets, etc. When installing, I counter bored it a tad short so the final position was a slight interference (crush) fit, to make the edges less likely to hold water & rust. Finally, I used a Birchwood Casey gun blue Sharpie to run a little bluing into the seam around the chamfered edge just as an added safety measure. When the touch hole finally wears out, you simply use the proper drill/easy out combo and it will release. I also used a little anti-seize before final installation. Since this gun has a wedged barrel, pumping the water through the barrel is still pretty easy. If it were a pinned full stock, you would just clean like you do a non-vent liner equipped rifle; toothpick in the hole trick.
Ok, my concern was flushing the barrel in a bucket. I wasn't sure it would work with the small hole.
Ok, another silly question. How did you screw it in?
Post by: RobD on December 04, 2016, 05:58:03 PM
Quote from: "Muley"
Quote from: "JStanley"Quote from: "Muley"How do you get the liner out? I had Chambers send mine directly to Mark, so I never got to see it.You don't take this liner out for cleaning like you do those with screw driver slots or hex head sockets, etc. When installing, I counter bored it a tad short so the final position was a slight interference (crush) fit, to make the edges less likely to hold water & rust. Finally, I used a Birchwood Casey gun blue Sharpie to run a little bluing into the seam around the chamfered edge just as an added safety measure. When the touch hole finally wears out, you simply use the proper drill/easy out combo and it will release. I also used a little anti-seize before final installation. Since this gun has a wedged barrel, pumping the water through the barrel is still pretty easy. If it were a pinned full stock, you would just clean like you do a non-vent liner equipped rifle; toothpick in the hole trick.
Ok, my concern was flushing the barrel in a bucket. I wasn't sure it would work with the small hole.
Ok, another silly question. How did you screw it in?
the size of the touch hole doesn't matter at all for bucket flush out cleaning.
the chambers white lightning vent liner has a cut off screw in extension - once screwed in, you hack it off and fair in any remaining vent liner metal flush to the barrel.
Post by: JStanley on December 04, 2016, 06:06:59 PM
Quote from: "Rob DiStefano"
the chambers white lightning vent liner has a cut off screw in extension - once screwed in, you hack it off and fair in any remaining vent liner metal flush to the barrel.
What Rob said except I used an end mill to gently mill off the wrench extension cuz I was afraid I would booger up the finish with a file. Since it was in the mill and the tools were there...
Post by: Muley on December 04, 2016, 06:09:03 PM
Post by: RobD on December 04, 2016, 06:17:55 PM
building another GPR for a friend, just got the rifle yesterday and first thing i did was check the touch hole to pan alignment, it's good.
notice the barrel test fouling debris inside the touch hole, too ....
(http://i.imgur.com/Gep71Oe.jpg)
Post by: Muley on December 04, 2016, 06:23:24 PM
I guess I won't know until I shoot it.
Post by: RobD on December 04, 2016, 06:38:36 PM
fast with regards to what? how is it being loaded? what are the components? much to understand what "isn't fast" means.
i get "fast" ignition with ALL my flintlocks, from cheap $425 kit guns to $2400 custom jobs. and that's with 3f in the pan, not 4f. y'all have access to my videos, i'm not doing anything special that anyone else couldn't do ... particularly with those offshore box-stock investarms guns.
Post by: Muley on December 04, 2016, 06:49:16 PM
He said he's shipping it Tues. I should be able to try it by the end of the week.
Post by: RobD on December 04, 2016, 06:55:57 PM
Investarms GPR Kit Hawken - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asQQ0xO-fwY)
Post by: Ohio Joe on December 04, 2016, 08:18:05 PM
Muley, it's been my experience that if one is use to shooting a caplock, it takes a few shots with their flintlock to realize the flinter is also fast.
I think it's more of a mind thing then anything else as we have that instant puff of white smoke as the powder begins to burn in the pan, then after a few shots we don't even give it a second thought as we're fully committed to concentrating on our sights. I've noticed this with not only myself, but several friends over the years who also shoot cap and flintlocks. I'm to the point now that part of my flintlock ritual is reminding myself to concentrate solely on the sights when taking that first (and all) shots with a flintlock. After a few shots it just becomes second nature and we don't even realize we're shooting just as normal with the flintlock as we do with the caplock.
Hope I explained that right / or at least my take on what "but isn't fast" may mean.
Rob, I would call your flintlock "fast!"
Post by: Muley on December 04, 2016, 08:22:19 PM
At least that's my hope.
Post by: Ohio Joe on December 04, 2016, 08:28:56 PM
Post by: Muley on December 04, 2016, 08:44:38 PM
Sorry for taking over the thread.
Post by: JStanley on December 04, 2016, 11:27:05 PM
Quote from: "Muley"
Hope so.No worries Pete, it was all about the original topic & besides, I've really enjoyed everyone'a insights.
Sorry for taking over the thread.