Traditional Muzzleloading Association

Craftsmanship => Gun Building and Repair => Topic started by: RobD on December 11, 2016, 12:53:29 PM

Title: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: RobD on December 11, 2016, 12:53:29 PM: top - DGW investarms .50 ...... bottom - GPR investarms .50 ...... oh what fun awaits!

(http://i.imgur.com/TzlEWsI.jpg)
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: Hanshi on December 11, 2016, 03:25:02 PM: I would love to get a flint, .54 GPR kit. It might even be within my abilities to build and make it look, well, reasonable.
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: RobD on December 11, 2016, 03:39:48 PM: these investarms kits practically build themselves. the only real work is final shaping of the stock, should you even wish to do so. leave all the furniture on and rasp the proud wood to meet the metal, apply a stain and rub in some oil or polyu, done. it's fine if you wish not to work the wood, but you will need to take down the lock mortise outside wood in order to get the cock to function smoothly ... just a block of wood and some 80 or 100 grit. these will be the 7th and 8th kits i've done, 5 have been italian investarms (the best of all offshore kits), and three spanish (a cva and 2 traditions). parts to these kits fit surprisingly well ... here's the gpr lock and touch hole dry fit fit (the breech tang isn't home yet and protrudes up) ...

(http://i.imgur.com/Ix9KYtU.jpg)

... notice the proofing gunk in the touch hole liner screw hole. it can easily be cleaned out without removing the breech plug, but i'll remove the breech plug anyway, clean and put back with anti-seize lube to make for easy future removal by mitigating the migration of bp residue into the threads, which as we all know will happen sooner than later!
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: rollingb on December 11, 2016, 06:00:52 PM: Those 2 kits ought'a keep you busy for a couple of days. :hey-hey
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: RobD on December 11, 2016, 06:16:50 PM: oops, forgot the pedersoli .45 kentucky flinter pistol kit too!!! :laffing
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: rollingb on December 11, 2016, 06:28:38 PM
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: Ohio Joe on December 12, 2016, 08:42:27 AM: These kits are enjoyable to fit and finish. I've done several for friends over the years, not to mention my own when I started out 40+ years ago. They truly are enjoyable.
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: Eric Krewson on December 12, 2016, 05:56:39 PM: I see a lot of the Lyman type kits finished with that ugly flat place left behind the lock panel and never figured out why it was there in the first place.
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: RobD on December 12, 2016, 06:12:38 PM: easy enuf to taper down all that proud wood ... in fact, ALL of the stock needs removal of a good amount of wood, then rasped, filed and sanded to meet the furniture. i love the smell of walnut, maple, beech, and mahogany dust in the early morning!
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: Bigsmoke on December 12, 2016, 08:07:42 PM: :happy
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: Uncle Russ on December 13, 2016, 02:19:01 PM: Rob, what's the twist on that DGW .50?

Looking good my friend, can't wait to see your progress.

Uncle Russ...
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: RobD on December 13, 2016, 03:06:49 PM: russ, that gun has the typical offshore rifle 1:48 compromise twist
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: RobD on December 14, 2016, 09:29:21 AM: after scribing a witness mark on the bottom of the barrel and plug, i pulled the breech on the DGW first. this will allow me to clean out the proofing residue and screw the plug and vent liner back with anti-seize lube. that rice barrel vise clamp works awesome, as does the patent breech socket!

(http://i.imgur.com/fxzVjJ6.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/KGlWyMV.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/3ZrJAgR.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/ff7jASM.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/fzbqKn8.jpg)
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: RobD on December 15, 2016, 01:39:20 PM: DGW assembled for parts fit only. now to take off the barrel and lock, rasp down all the wood to meet the furniture, sand it down, get ready for the stain. more fun stuff!

(http://i.imgur.com/cXZjLlH.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/Q4OxT5b.jpg)
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: RobD on December 16, 2016, 06:35:26 AM: pulled the patent breech on the GPR, cleaned out the proofing residue, reinstalled with nikal anti-seize lube, did the same with the vent liner. i'll assemble this gun, then take off the barrel and lock and begin rasping the proud wood down to meet the iron furniture. i'll continue working with this gun - staining, oiling, reassembling and tuning the lock and triggers - as it belongs to a friend and i know he'll enjoy getting it as soon as possible.

(http://i.imgur.com/wyutHDq.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/3MCL9Ld.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/9etQVMo.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/7X6z3nR.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/9nSmyG5.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/j6lP0ME.jpg)
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: greyhunter on December 16, 2016, 09:06:52 AM: Nice pics, should post those of breech plug removal to TMA fb page to show how it should be done! Along with your comments on how to do it.
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: rollingb on December 16, 2016, 09:21:10 AM: Quote from: "greyhunter"
Nice pics, should post those of breech plug removal to TMA fb page to show how it should be done! Along with your comments on how to do it. :hairy
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: RobD on December 16, 2016, 09:34:19 AM: to be fair, with the right tools, investarms breech plugs are really easy to remove and replace, and one of the reasons i prefer their trad ml's. but i've never been able to pull off a spanish traditions or cva breech plug, it's like they're welded on. i've only fair success with pedersoli plugs, where some will absolutely not budge no matter what.

i have two sets of plug removal tools. (1) a special 15/16" socket for the patent breeches of offshore guns (they're sold on ebay) along with an 18" reed corp flat jawed wrench (not cheap, but well worth getting!), both seen in the pics above. (2) a rice barrel company variable size socket for standard breeches that uses a 3' black pipe "handle" for good leverage, and so far it has removed some of the most stubborn breech plugs off barrels with rusted threads.

i also use a rice barrel company octagonal vise barrel clamp pads, as shown in the pix above. positively locks in the barrel without marring it any manner. each clamp pad side has a neodymium disc magnet embedded in it to keep the pad tight to the vise jaws.

for those interested, rice barrel company barrel tools can be found at this page - RICE MUZZLE LOADING BARREL COMPANY (http://www.ricebarrels.com/products.html)
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: RobD on December 16, 2016, 11:04:42 AM: GPR assembled ...

(http://i.imgur.com/1SOLcX0.jpg)

... will now pull off the barrel, vise the stock, begin rasping down the proud wood.

:bl th up
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: Ohio Joe on December 16, 2016, 01:27:03 PM: Just amazing what one finds when pulling those plugs. You do a very nice job for sure!
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: Hanshi on December 16, 2016, 03:41:03 PM: Back when I had to pull a breech plug last year, I just wrapped the barrel in a thick sheet of lead and clamped it in my vise. Of course this was a longrifle with a Green Mountain barrel and not an investarms.
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: rollingb on December 16, 2016, 03:55:55 PM: Quote from: "Rob DiStefano"
pulled the patent breech on the GPR, cleaned out the proofing residue, reinstalled with nikal anti-seize lube, did the same with the vent liner. i'll assemble this gun, then take off the barrel and lock and begin rasping the proud wood down to meet the iron furniture. i'll continue working with this gun - staining, oiling, reassembling and tuning the lock and triggers - as it belongs to a friend and i know he'll enjoy getting it as soon as possible.

(http://i.imgur.com/wyutHDq.jpg)
I'd be interested in knowing,... if water readily cuts/dissolves that proofing residue????
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: RobD on December 16, 2016, 06:19:09 PM: Quote from: "rollingb"
Quote from: "Rob DiStefano"
pulled the patent breech on the GPR, cleaned out the proofing residue, reinstalled with nikal anti-seize lube, did the same with the vent liner. i'll assemble this gun, then take off the barrel and lock and begin rasping the proud wood down to meet the iron furniture. i'll continue working with this gun - staining, oiling, reassembling and tuning the lock and triggers - as it belongs to a friend and i know he'll enjoy getting it as soon as possible.

(http://i.imgur.com/wyutHDq.jpg)
I'd be interested in knowing,... if water readily cuts/dissolves that proofing residue????

i used LVL and it easily cut it. i would think straight water would also work, too.
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: RobD on December 19, 2016, 07:08:40 PM: LMF american walnut stain, TOTW original oil finish, now to set it all up and tune the lock ...

(http://i.imgur.com/VU7Xei5.jpg)
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: amm1851 on December 19, 2016, 09:28:24 PM: Looks great! Nice work.
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: Ohio Joe on December 19, 2016, 09:58:09 PM: Quote from: "amm1851"
Looks great! Nice work.

I agree as well!
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: Uncle Russ on December 20, 2016, 10:39:06 PM: Very nice Rob!!!

Uncle Russ...
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: Roaddog on December 21, 2016, 06:36:26 AM: Ya sure do a nice job in a short time Rob. :toast
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: RobD on December 21, 2016, 07:48:39 AM: thank ye gents. i always enjoy working on these "kit" investarms guns. the only real work is knocking down the wood to meet the furniture and all it takes is a small rasp and LOTS of elbow grease ... and, there is no pressing requirement to take down any of the wood, other than for aesthetics. the fit of the parts is extraordinarily good, nothing special to do, they all just fit into place and no inlet work required at all. so, i highly recommend these "kits" and the savings is in the order of a good hundred buck$.

i pretty much use the LMF stain for this work and this is the first time i've used their american walnut flavor - wow, it's *perfect* for that deep olde tyme dark walnut look when it goes onto real walnut, with very little red in the hue. gonna use it on the beech wood of the DGW kit gun next. the other LMF stain colors i've used - lancaster maple, walnut, nut brown - all exhibit lots of red, which sometimes can be a bit overwhelming.

to me, there are 3 stages, or degrees of lock tuning. i'm gonna be preaching to the choir here for the most part, but this might be of help to a few folks ...

the first and most accessible tuning is to clean the entire lock inside and out, dry out, and spot oil the bearing surfaces, then set up a good flint in the cock jaws and set the proper angle. along with a proper flint, the frizzen's hardness factor is important for throwing good sparks, but that also requires the proper gun flint setting. the flint is adjusted so that at half cock, and with the frizzen down over the pan, the biting edge of the flint is almost touching the frizzen and barely misses the pan when down all the way. as to whether the flint should be bevel up or down only matters for whatever works best (that is, making the best sparks). all of this is a must-do, or all bets are off on ignition reliability.

the more invasive lock tuning means a total disassembly, which should leave a flat lock plate that *might* need to be levelled (hammering and/or filed) and polished to maybe 600 grit, in a progression of grits that might hafta start at 120 or 220, but at the least 320. all the touching/bearing sides of moving lock components also get polished up to 600 grit. all load bearing surfaces should get a very light, very careful fine stoning for polish only and not for removal of metal. after reassembly, all moving joined surfaces get quality oil lubed. so what does all of this accomplish? depends. if the lock moving part surfaces were really rough and gritty, the benefits of overall lock speed would be visibly noticed, but if the parts were reasonably smooth to begin with, probably at best a few extra milliseconds of cock fall speed, that's all. i've done all of this to siler and l&r locks and it can make an increase in both lock smoothness and speed. it should be noted that the investarms locks are not of "vintage" architecture and their plates have some welded components which will hamper any plate levelling. they also employ a coil mainspring instead of a leaf spring, which for me is just fine, and there's a plate that covers the tumbler and fly that needs to be removed, no big deal.

the major lock tuning means adjusting its mechanical geometry. this is a gunsmith's job, not for a hobbyist, because it means changing the angles and bearing surface areas of the tumbler notches for the positions of fire, half cock and full cock. the steel and hardening qualities of the tumbler, sear, fly, and bridle must be of superior quality to begin, and if not they need to be properly hardened after the modifications are accomplished.

anyhoo, weren't much needed to make this lock work well and shower sparks into the pan using a good "tom fuller" english flint of the proper size. this GPR is for my bud dave in tennessee. i think he's gonna be a happy camper and will make some meat with it next year.
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: sse on December 27, 2016, 04:46:43 PM: Great presentation of the process, Rob...! Thanks for all the pics and effort.
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: ridjrunr on December 28, 2016, 02:44:34 AM: Nice color on that Rob
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: RobD on December 28, 2016, 07:30:13 AM: i'm really loving that LMF american walnut stain as it yields that old, dark, well used kinda finish, while still defining the wood grain, and it has the least amount of red in it as opposed to most of the other LMF stains for maple, walnut or cherry. the TOTW original linseed oil finish (thankfully, with dryers so it will actually cure hard fairly quickly) makes for a good protective finish that can be added to if need be, without taking the gun apart.

(http://i.imgur.com/KdmSSkj.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/SobBBz5.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/OUVk2Fq.jpg)
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: Ohio Joe on December 29, 2016, 08:41:11 AM: Nice! Very nice, Rob!
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: rollingb on December 29, 2016, 11:31:34 AM: PURTY!!!!!!!
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: Hanshi on December 29, 2016, 01:15:01 PM: It really does look good and I like it.
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: Muley on December 29, 2016, 01:55:48 PM: I like that look for wood. Gives it an old used look. Excellent.

You going to brown the metal?
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: Geezer in NH on December 29, 2016, 05:43:19 PM: Does not look like a good fit with the residue on the shoulder. The breech is NOT in full contact all around as it should IMHO
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: RobD on December 29, 2016, 05:52:02 PM: Quote from: "Geezer in NH"
Does not look like a good fit with the residue on the shoulder. The breech is NOT in full contact all around as it should IMHO

look again, it's a patent breech with an ante-chamber, it fits perfectly.
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: Geezer in NH on December 29, 2016, 07:05:13 PM: Quote from: "Rob DiStefano"
pulled the patent breech on the GPR, cleaned out the proofing residue, reinstalled with nikal anti-seize lube, did the same with the vent liner. i'll assemble this gun, then take off the barrel and lock and begin rasping the proud wood down to meet the iron furniture. i'll continue working with this gun - staining, oiling, reassembling and tuning the lock and triggers - as it belongs to a friend and i know he'll enjoy getting it as soon as possible.

(http://i.imgur.com/wyutHDq.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/3MCL9Ld.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/9etQVMo.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/7X6z3nR.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/9nSmyG5.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/j6lP0ME.jpg)

Then what's the crap at 9-12 o'clock??
Title: Re: a couple of winter kit assemblies
Post by: RobD on December 29, 2016, 07:09:38 PM: Quote from: "Geezer in NH"
Quote from: "Rob DiStefano"
pulled the patent breech on the GPR, cleaned out the proofing residue, reinstalled with nikal anti-seize lube, did the same with the vent liner. i'll assemble this gun, then take off the barrel and lock and begin rasping the proud wood down to meet the iron furniture. i'll continue working with this gun - staining, oiling, reassembling and tuning the lock and triggers - as it belongs to a friend and i know he'll enjoy getting it as soon as possible.

(http://i.imgur.com/wyutHDq.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/3MCL9Ld.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/9etQVMo.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/7X6z3nR.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/9nSmyG5.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/j6lP0ME.jpg)

Then what's the crap at 9-12 o'clock??

loose proofing residue - it's not corrosion or rusting, but something else left in the chambers after the firing. pretty much comes off with plain water.