Post by: sclearman on December 16, 2016, 12:13:20 PM
What I got was an Uberti .54 caliber half-stock cap lock rifle. I have done a bit of reading, here an elsewhere, but can't find information on this particular rifle. I am aware of the Uberti "Sante Fe Hawken", and the other versions, but my understanding is all of those have other markings on them. I'll post some photos if i can (not sure of the board rules on that).
So, let me describe what I have;
Half stock of what appears to be stained Walnut
Barrel is roughly 32" and deep blue
nose cap appears to be steel and browned
2 wedges appear to be blue steel, and are mismatched
2 wedge mounting plates appear to be silver(ish), maybe sterling?
Butt plate is color case hardened, not sure if it is true CCH, or a fake finish
Toe plate (I assume that what it is called, a separate piece of steel on the bottom of buttstock and against butt plate is also steel and CCH
Blued double triggers
Trigger guard is CCH
breech plug and nipple bowl are CCH
Tang (where barrel tilts in) is also CCH
Flat sided hammer is CCH
Lock plate is CCH
Barrel is 1"
Silver blade front sight
non-adjustable buckhorn rear sight in dovetail.
the only markings on it are on the barrel, on top it says "A.UBERTI-MADE IN ITALY" and "54 CAL"
One flat has "BLACK POWDER ONLY" and several proff marks on both barrel and breech plug.
another flat has what I assume is a serial number "A20851" on it.
So, What have I got? Is it anything special? There are some features I dont like on it, but before I did anything I wanted to make sure I got an idea what I have.
Trade also came with a really nice leather possibles bag from Leatherman.
Love to hear your thoughts and if possible I will answer questions if I can.
Post by: prairie dog on December 16, 2016, 12:44:24 PM
Post by: rollingb on December 16, 2016, 01:55:23 PM
The rifles themselves are very well made, good shooters, and are a pretty authentic copy of a real "Hawken".
Pictures would really help to identify what you have,... and if I remember correctly at least one of our TMA members (ridjrunr) has a "Santa Fe Hawken", so he may have more information about your rifle.
Post by: sclearman on December 16, 2016, 02:25:34 PM
Post by: sclearman on December 16, 2016, 02:26:34 PM
Post by: rollingb on December 16, 2016, 03:45:50 PM
Quote from: "sclearman"
I thought all the Sante Fe versions had "Sante Fe NM" on the barrel. This one doesn't. I'm wondering if this was a kit gun?
Nope, I'm sure of that. :rt th
Post by: Bigsmoke on December 16, 2016, 03:49:19 PM
If it says Uberti, that is it.
I don't recall seeing the Santa Fe, NM stamping on the barrel, but it could have been there. IIRC, Santa Fe was where the primary importer of the Uberti firearms was located, back in the day.
Here is what I found in the 6th edition of Bluebook of Black Powder Firearms
Allen Firearms
Previous importer located in Santa Fe, NM, importing Uberti and Co reproductions and replicas until early in 1987.
After Allen Firearms closed, Old West Gun Co, now Cimarron FA Co, located in Fredricksburg, TX, purchased the remaining inventory. Since all guns sold by Allen Firearms were manufactured by Uberti, they even used the same catalog...
The listed value of one of them at 100% was $395 in 2009
Anyway, great rifle.
The only other Uberti rifle listed was their St. Louis rifle.
I have shot .530 in them, but loading was accomplished with a hammer. Use .520's.
I am not aware of any being delivered as kit rifles, but could have been.
There you go.
John
Post by: freddy on December 16, 2016, 05:12:33 PM
I also bought from them a 0.520" mold labelled "Palmetto" and "Italy". Quality as nice as Lyman, fits Lyman handles.
Fine barrel, loads go down smoothly, shoots OK, used it in cross-stick matches where it performed well. Lock is snappy, set triggers OK.
Could be the factory version has a walnut stock and color case hardened metal parts.
Post by: sclearman on December 16, 2016, 10:00:47 PM
The total trade package
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/mr-fixit/DSC_0139.jpg) (http://http)
The bag
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/mr-fixit/DSC_0140.jpg) (http://http)
The rifle
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/mr-fixit/hawken/DSC_0144.jpg) (http://http)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/mr-fixit/hawken/DSC_0146.jpg) (http://http)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/mr-fixit/hawken/DSC_0148.jpg) (http://http)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/mr-fixit/hawken/DSC_0152.jpg) (http://http)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/mr-fixit/hawken/DSC_0166.jpg) (http://http)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/mr-fixit/hawken/DSC_0160.jpg) (http://http)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/mr-fixit/hawken/DSC_0158.jpg) (http://http)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/mr-fixit/hawken/DSC_0163.jpg) (http://http)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/mr-fixit/hawken/DSC_0151.jpg) (http://http)
The muzzle is white as opposed to the rest of the barrel, almost like it has been cut, very little crown
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/mr-fixit/hawken/DSC_0154.jpg) (http://http)
Post by: Bigsmoke on December 16, 2016, 10:34:11 PM
Incidentally, that is one of my powder horns that I made a while back, MSRP probably was about $60.00 or so. Silly me, I never really kept track of what the horns sold for, had price lists and computers to do that for me. Pretty nice horn. Should remember it as I made very few black horns.
Post by: rollingb on December 16, 2016, 10:49:49 PM
Your rifle isn't the first Italian-made rifle I've seen with a muzzle that looks as though it's been "cut off".
Your's seems typical.
It also looks as though one of the wedge-keys may a "replacement".
Post by: sclearman on December 16, 2016, 11:00:07 PM
Quote from: "bigsmoke"
Incidentally, that is one of my powder horns that I made a while back, MSRP probably was about $60.00 or so. Silly me, I never really kept track of what the horns sold for, had price lists and computers to do that for me. Pretty nice horn. Should remember it as I made very few black horns.
Seriously? How can you tell? Very cool though.
Post by: sclearman on December 16, 2016, 11:05:21 PM
Quote from: "rollingb"
Are there any balls in the ball-bag that you can mic to see what size they are?
........
It also looks as though one of the wedge-keys may a "replacement".
It came with a new unopened box of Hornady .530" balls. inside the ball-bag are .520".
Where would i find correct replacement pins?
Also, what would be a reasonable value on this outfit?
Post by: rollingb on December 16, 2016, 11:36:35 PM
Quote from: "sclearman"
.520's are the correct size for your "Santa Fe Hawken". :bl th upQuote from: "rollingb"Are there any balls in the ball-bag that you can mic to see what size they are?
........
It also looks as though one of the wedge-keys may a "replacement".
It came with a new unopened box of Hornady .530" balls. inside the ball-bag are .520".
Where would i find correct replacement pins?
Also, what would be a reasonable value on this outfit?
You might measure the length, width, and thickness. of the wedge keys in your rifle,... then visit the "Track of the Wolf" online catalog and find what closely matches those dimensions and order 2. :shake
Post by: rollingb on December 16, 2016, 11:51:06 PM
Lee .520" round ball mold, six (6) cavity mold blocks, with cam-action sprue plate, for Santa Fe Hawken rifles, and other tight .53 and .54 bores, requires Lee handles - Track of the Wolf (https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1202/4/LEE-520-6C)
Post by: amm1851 on December 17, 2016, 01:33:38 AM
Post by: One Shot on December 17, 2016, 03:09:10 AM
Have fun and enjoy it.....
Post by: rollingb on December 17, 2016, 12:35:12 PM
Quote from: "One Shot"
Your rifle was manufactured in 2001 as indicated with BP in the box. Original Sante Fe's were discontinued in 1994 and reproduced again in either late 2000 or early 2001. I am not sure if it was indeed called a Santa Fe Hawken again maybe it was given a different name such as just Hawken, I cannot recall. It is different in several respects to the original ones. Steel nose cap, case hardened butt, toe plate and breach/tang. The flat white muzzle with little crown was typical to the originals as well. Your's should be a true .54 using a .530 RBI learn something new every day,... I didn't know Uberti made a later version of their Santa Fe Hawken rifle.
Have fun and enjoy it.....
My wife probably knew and didn't tell me 'cause she didn't want me buyin' another rifle. :rt th
Post by: Bigsmoke on December 17, 2016, 12:52:55 PM
Quote from: "sclearman"
Quote from: "bigsmoke"Incidentally, that is one of my powder horns that I made a while back, MSRP probably was about $60.00 or so. Silly me, I never really kept track of what the horns sold for, had price lists and computers to do that for me. Pretty nice horn. Should remember it as I made very few black horns.
Seriously? How can you tell? Very cool though.
Well, there are a couple of little give aways. First is the brass finial. I have never seen anyone else that used something like that. I had House of Muskets/Treso make them for me on one of their screw machines. The tenon on the finial is threaded 1/4-20, FWIW.
Also, I was pretty picky about installing the bushing the valve screws into. There is a smooth transition from the horn to the brass. Lastly, on that model of horn, I used a fairly fine brass nail (18 ga) by the baseplug.
Then take into consideration I made those horns for 30 years. One would think I should recognize them when I see them. They just kinda jump right out to me.
You got a mighty fine outfit there. I would agree with Rondo on the value of it, but I got a feeling you undercut that estimate some. In the end, though, it is only worth what one person agrees to sell it for and another person agrees to pay for it. If both people walk away with a smile on their face, it's a good deal.
Post by: prairie dog on December 17, 2016, 01:20:13 PM
Post by: rollingb on December 17, 2016, 01:41:43 PM
Quote from: "One Shot"
Your rifle was manufactured in 2001 as indicated with BP in the box. Original Sante Fe's were discontinued in 1994 and reproduced again in either late 2000 or early 2001. I am not sure if it was indeed called a Santa Fe Hawken again maybe it was given a different name such as just Hawken, I cannot recall. It is different in several respects to the original ones. Steel nose cap, case hardened butt, toe plate and breach/tang. The flat white muzzle with little crown was typical to the originals as well. Your's should be a true .54 using a .530 RBActually it's easy enough to check to see which size round ball the rifle takes,.... I use a strip of .018 pillow ticking about 4" long by 11/2" wide, lube the pillow ticking with whatever you have handy (even "spit" will work :lt th
Have fun and enjoy it.....
Post by: ridjrunr on December 17, 2016, 03:28:12 PM
I will describe mine a little here for clarification. I believe mine to be a first run as is indicated by two things in particular. A slant breech and even though stamped .54 it is in fact a .53 cal. On my top barrel flat is stamped Western Arms Corp Sante Fe NM on the left side barrel flat is A.Uberti & C. Gardone V.T. Italy on rt side oblique flat is xxx1 54 cal.
My barrel also has zero crowning on the barrel all the hardware is brown steel except nose cap and escutions which are pewter and german silver respectivly.
I did quite a bit of online research and have talked to several people who were around shooting bp along time before me and all agrree on the things I have mentioned.( as a cross referance)
It weighs 9.4 pounds. Also the proofmarks are bellow and to the rear of the Uberti names.
Regardless of first second or third run, I have only heard good things about all of the Uberti made Hawkens,or Sante Fe's if you call it that.
Nice find
Post by: sclearman on December 17, 2016, 04:18:05 PM
Quote from: "One Shot"
Your rifle was manufactured in 2001 as indicated with BP in the box.
........
Your's should be a true .54 using a .530 RB
Have fun and enjoy it.....
Thank you very much for that information!
Quote from: "bigsmoke"
Then take into consideration I made those horns for 30 years. One would think I should recognize them when I see them. They just kinda jump right out to me.
And thank you sir for the information on the horn, very interesting.
Quote from: "rollingb"
Actually it's easy enough to check to see which size round ball the rifle takes,.... I use a strip of .018 pillow ticking about 4" long by 11/2" wide, lube the pillow ticking with whatever you have handy (even "spit" will work :lt th
That was a great help, it worked perfectly! Mine is a true .54 caliber. A .530 ball and 'patch' went in with a gentle push with a ball starter. I tried a .520 just for grins and could push it and the patch in with gentle finger pressure.
So, I will try to sum up the information in case anyone looks for this later; Uberti first made the "Sante Fe Hawken" for Leonard Allen. Those rifles had the barrels stamped with "Sante Fe NM" due to that being the location of the importer. Western Arms Corporation also sold a Jedidiah Smith Commemorative rifle which was made by Uberti the same as the Allen arms rifle. Both of these rifles had a .530 bore even though they were marked as .54 caliber. Those rifles should be shot with .520 balls.
Uberti also imported the rifle with none of the "Sante Fe" markings, being only labeled as Uberti in true .54 caliber, which is what I have.
Does that sound about right?
Post by: sclearman on December 17, 2016, 04:26:02 PM
Quote from: "bigsmoke"
You got a mighty fine outfit there. I would agree with Rondo on the value of it, but I got a feeling you undercut that estimate some. In the end, though, it is only worth what one person agrees to sell it for and another person agrees to pay for it. If both people walk away with a smile on their face, it's a good deal.
We were both happy when we parted. The pilgrim was asking to sell the whole kit for $225. I was able to get it at a better deal.
I'm mighty proud of it no doubt. It needs a lil work. The finish on the stock has gotten sticky. I think I will do an "oil scrub" and see how it looks after. Also as noted the wedge pins are mismatched. One of them has pushed the far sided wedge plate out stripping the wood. That should be an easy fix, I'll under cut the wood on the back side, fill it with some accuraglass and re-screw it in. Doubt anyone will ever know.
Due only to personal preference, I wish the barrel and other metal was browned. I doubt that the CCH on the parts is true hardening. I wonder what it would take to remove that finish so everything could be browned. Suggestions on that?
Again, thanks to all for the information! I look forward to trying her out!
Post by: Bigsmoke on December 17, 2016, 04:46:10 PM
Great deal, there. You did good. To my feeble little mind, I think the true .54 caliber is a big plus. Not a big deal, just a big plus. by the time the re-issue of the rifle happened, I had stopped dealing in the import guns and was pretty much just doing accessories. I do recall that the original run of rifles was browned, as the first one I got appeared to be about .22 caliber due to the fact they had not stopped the browning process. So, maybe the later ones were blued. Dunno.
I really don't recall which came first, Western Arms or Allen Firearms. Doesn't matter as it was all the same guy, Leonard Allen. I think I recall that Western Arms might have been first as it was a collaboration between Allen and someone else when he was in California, and for some reason I am thinking it might have had something to with EMF (Early and Modern Firearms Co.). Maybe.
Post by: Bigsmoke on December 17, 2016, 05:13:10 PM
It's a pretty long read, so pour yourself a cuppa coffee first before you sit down to peruse it.
Excellent history of the rifle.
Uberti Santa Fe Hawken – GRRW Collector (http://grrw.org/uberti-santa-fe-hawken/)
Is that Green River Rifle Works url?
Actually, it is the URL for a fellow who is totally wowed by the Green River Company and did a ton of research on it and a few of the other Hawken type rifle builders of that era. There is a ton of research that the fellow has done and he presents it in a terrific format. Well worth a detailed read. Bravo to him.
Interesting, very interesting.
John
Post by: rollingb on December 17, 2016, 06:46:00 PM
"Here is a photo of an Ithaca Hawken for comparison. The argument that Allen sent Uberti an Ithaca Hawken is supported by the walnut stock and wide lock panels on the Ithaca rifle."
Now,... who made the "Hawken" that had Ithaca stamped on it?????????
I'm 100% certain the one a fella brought to my shop in Alaska, shot a .520 ball.
Post by: ridjrunr on December 17, 2016, 11:50:23 PM
Post by: rollingb on December 18, 2016, 04:07:13 PM
Quote from: "sclearman"
If the .530 ball went in with a "gentle push with a ball starter", you might check the ball (after pulling it from the muzzle) to see if your patch material left an imprint of it's weave on the sides of the pure lead ball.Quote from: "rollingb"Actually it's easy enough to check to see which size round ball the rifle takes,.... I use a strip of .018 pillow ticking about 4" long by 11/2" wide, lube the pillow ticking with whatever you have handy (even "spit" will work :lt th
That was a great help, it worked perfectly! Mine is a true .54 caliber. A .530 ball and 'patch' went in with a gentle push with a ball starter. I tried a .520 just for grins and could push it and the patch in with gentle finger pressure.
If no weave imprint is readily seen on the ball, you might try the next size bigger ball .535,.... or try a bit thicker patch material.
The patch needs to "grip" the ball to achieve best accuracy.
Once you've found the "ball and patch" combo you'd like to try,.... we can help you with developing the optimum load for your rifle and fine-tuning everything as you progress.
Post by: sclearman on December 18, 2016, 05:06:27 PM
Quote from: "rollingb"
If the .530 ball went in with a "gentle push with a ball starter", you might check the ball (after pulling it from the muzzle) to see if your patch material left an imprint of it's weave on the sides of the pure lead ball.
With the starter, what I meant was I didn't need a mallet. There was resistance, and it took a bit of a tug to get it back out.
Post by: rollingb on December 18, 2016, 06:01:22 PM
Quote from: "sclearman"
Quote from: "rollingb"If the .530 ball went in with a "gentle push with a ball starter", you might check the ball (after pulling it from the muzzle) to see if your patch material left an imprint of it's weave on the sides of the pure lead ball.
With the starter, what I meant was I didn't need a mallet. There was resistance, and it took a bit of a tug to get it back out.
Post by: RobD on December 18, 2016, 06:38:48 PM
Quote from: "sclearman"
...
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/mr-fixit/hawken/DSC_0166.jpg) (http://http)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/mr-fixit/hawken/DSC_0160.jpg) (http://http)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/mr-fixit/hawken/DSC_0158.jpg) (http://http)
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/mr-fixit/hawken/DSC_0163.jpg) (http://http)
wow!! holy moly, you got some incredible deal there for a measly $225!!!
one thing i *might* be seeing is that *maybe* the breech plug was pulled at one time. i'm looking at the top and side flats of the plug and barrel that *appear* in the images not to line up. either that or i'm seeing an image aberration, but it does look like the plug wasn't fully homed. i'd guess, too, that's a patent breech ... ?
but WOW!!! you got a GREAT DEAL!!! :bl th up