Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Traditional Firearms => Flintlock Long Guns => Topic started by: Hawken on June 17, 2017, 05:33:52 PM
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Guys
There are lots of you that have way more experience with the flinters than I have so I'm asking what you think about the lock in this photo? This is out of my full length stock rifle. It's an L & R Lock and from the photo someone else has looked at they have advised that since the photo I sent them was of the Cock at full throw...their opinion was that the 'throw' looked somewhat short. I've had some trouble with getting the rifle to fire from time to time and I'm wondering if I should send this back to L & R for a rework job! It just doesn't seem to throw enough sparks when watching in a dark room. The frizzen has some slight gouges in it and I think that was from earlier flint strikes that may have been set not quite right. ???? I know the frizzen needs to be reground flat and have L & R reharden it possibly.
And by the way.....is L & R still doing business??? ::) ::)
What say you??
Thanks!
Sorry about this photo! Computer won't let me rotate it the right way!! :Doh! :Doh!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4202/34558785913_65114d96a1_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/UDQP3r)L & R Lock (https://flic.kr/p/UDQP3r) by Sharps Man (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/), on Flickr
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You bet L&R is still in business. I put their RPL replacement lock on my T-C flinter and it beat the snot out of the factory lock. Mine has a shorter throw than the stock lock from T-C, and also as compared to the CVA lock on my Deer Creek rifle. They do need to be clean and lubricated.
I read a post somewhere that the writer was at L&R when some guy came in all irate because his "piece of junk" lock wouldn't work. The owner of the shop asked if it had been lubed and was assured it was. When he stripped it down, it was dry as a bone; he oiled it and it worked like it was supposed to.
I dry fire mine a lot with a piece of wood in lieu of the flint. I get the practice and the lock internals get worn in.
~WH~
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Guys
There are lots of you that have way more experience with the flinters than I have so I'm asking what you think about the lock in this photo? This is out of my full length stock rifle. It's an L & R Lock and from the photo someone else has looked at they have advised that since the photo I sent them was of the Cock at full throw...their opinion was that the 'throw' looked somewhat short. I've had some trouble with getting the rifle to fire from time to time and I'm wondering if I should send this back to L & R for a rework job! It just doesn't seem to throw enough sparks when watching in a dark room. The frizzen has some slight gouges in it and I think that was from earlier flint strikes that may have been set not quite right. ???? I know the frizzen needs to be reground flat and have L & R reharden it possibly.
And by the way.....is L & R still doing business??? ::) ::)
What say you??
Thanks!
Sorry about this photo! Computer won't let me rotate it the right way!! :Doh! :Doh!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4202/34558785913_65114d96a1_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/UDQP3r)L & R Lock (https://flic.kr/p/UDQP3r) by Sharps Man (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/), on Flickr
Yes,... L&R is doing business. :bl th up
With the frizzen in the closed position is the fint edge striking it above center on the frizzen face?
The general "rule of thumb" is,.... the flint edge ought to strike the frizzen about 2/3rds. of the way up from the bottom of the frizzen.
The "point of impact" on the frizzen face can be raised by flippin' your flint over (with the flint's "bevel down"),.... I know it looks a bit funny that way (at least I think so), but it's really not an unusual thing to do. :bl th up
Leather shims are also (sometimes) used to raise a flint that is striking too low. :bl th up
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The throw on that lock looks just fine. Can you post a pic of the lock with flint in, frizzen closed, and at half-cock?
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The throw on that lock looks just fine. Can you post a pic of the lock with flint in, frizzen closed, and at half-cock?
Hank
That photo was with it on half-cock and I had reversed the flint from what it was when shooting. I'll send another photo with it on full-cock as below with frizzen closed!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4250/34530932464_290fef4e56_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/UBo4by)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/UBo4by) by Sharps Man (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/), on Flickr
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Looks like the flint is too short. Just my opinion.
TC
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The throw on that lock looks just fine. Can you post a pic of the lock with flint in, frizzen closed, and at half-cock?
Hank
That photo was with it on half-cock and I had reversed the flint from what it was when shooting. I'll send another photo with it on full-cock as below with frizzen closed!
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4250/34530932464_290fef4e56_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/UBo4by)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/UBo4by) by Sharps Man (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/), on Flickr
It's more difficult to tell what the situation is when at full cock,.... adjusting the flint in the jaws should be done at half cock. I position my flint to where it's only about 1/16"-1/8" from the frizzen face at half cock.
And I agree with Rocklock,.... it looks like your flint is too short. :bl th up
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I agree with rollingb that the flint does look on the short size. Is that the Late English Lock? Their site says to use a 3/4" flint. Are you saying that when the rifle doesn't fire that the pan doesn't flash. Is your flint tight? Does the lock and frizzen operate freely with no binding in and out of the gun?
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I agree with rollingb that the flint does look on the short size. Is that the Late English Lock? Their site says to use a 3/4" flint. Are you saying that when the rifle doesn't fire that the pan doesn't flash. Is your flint tight? Does the lock and frizzen operate freely with no binding in and out of the gun?
This flint is 3/4" in length and maybe that's part of the 'flash in pan' problem. Stands to reason considering the arch of the hammer that if I use a shorter flint that it would strike lower on the frizzen! I think the frizzen is hard enough; just that it needs smoothing on a belt sander slightly. ::) ::)
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This flint is 3/4" in length and maybe that's part of the 'flash in pan' problem. Stands to reason considering the arch of the hammer that if I use a shorter flint that it would strike lower on the frizzen! I think the frizzen is hard enough; just that it needs smoothing on a belt sander slightly. ::) ::)
Whoa now, are you getting ignition in the pan but no firing of the powder charge, or are you not getting the priming powder to ignite (flash in the pan)? If the prime is lighting off but the main charge isn't, you have a problem with the vent, not the lock. In that case I suggest that you use a pick to clear the vent before you shoot. Possibly even open it up a tad with a drill, but no larger than 1/16th of an inch.
On the other hand, if the sparks from the flint aren't firing the priming charge the previous comments apply. I didn't see anyone mention wiping the frizzen face when you are charging the pan. That can cause no spark if there is soot build up on it. I try to wipe mine down with my thumb before closing it after adding the primer charge.
~WH~
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This flint is 3/4" in length and maybe that's part of the 'flash in pan' problem. Stands to reason considering the arch of the hammer that if I use a shorter flint that it would strike lower on the frizzen! I think the frizzen is hard enough; just that it needs smoothing on a belt sander slightly. ::) ::)
Whoa now, are you getting ignition in the pan but no firing of the powder charge, or are you not getting the priming powder to ignite (flash in the pan)? If the prime is lighting off but the main charge isn't, you have a problem with the vent, not the lock. In that case I suggest that you use a pick to clear the vent before you shoot. Possibly even open it up a tad with a drill, but no larger than 1/16th of an inch.
On the other hand, if the sparks from the flint aren't firing the priming charge the previous comments apply. I didn't see anyone mention wiping the frizzen face when you are charging the pan. That can cause no spark if there is soot build up on it. I try to wipe mine down with my thumb before closing it after adding the primer charge.
~WH~
Good points WH :bl th up,....I just assumed he was already doin' that (but maybe not). :toast
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I took some photos of my L&R lock as well as the that of the CVA. The L&R has a noticeably shorter throw, but it also has a stronger main spring. The instructions which came with the L&R said to use a 5/8" flint. For comparison, the wood chip in the jaws measures right at 1" long, but I did have to file a notch so it can set back a little further against the cock screw.
Compare that to the CVA which also is supposed to use a 5/8" flint. The wood chip is 11/16" long, so less than your flint but longer than what is supposed to be in the jaws.
Reliable spark comes from the angle at which the flint strikes the frizzen. If the flint is too long it will hit higher and too straight on. Too short and it will hit too far down on the frizzen which will give a more acute angle to scrape off more spark, but it can also dig in to the frizzen. If the problem is that the priming charge isn't lighting off, you may want to try a 5/8" flint, or cut a hole in the leather to clear the cock screw so you can set the flint back a little. Or if that has been done already, knap a notch in the back of the flint. Conversely, if you want to try longer just move the flint out a bit in the jaws; just make sure to tighten that screw down good.
And lastly, if you PM me your address I can loan you my copy of Eric Bye's book, "Flintlocks - A Practical Guide for their Use and Appreciation." I would want it returned after a reasonable time, not more than 6 years months. :toast Don't make me come to Texas to find you!!! :laffing
~WH~
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This flint is 3/4" in length and maybe that's part of the 'flash in pan' problem. Stands to reason considering the arch of the hammer that if I use a shorter flint that it would strike lower on the frizzen! I think the frizzen is hard enough; just that it needs smoothing on a belt sander slightly. ::) ::)
Whoa now, are you getting ignition in the pan but no firing of the powder charge, or are you not getting the priming powder to ignite (flash in the pan)? If the prime is lighting off but the main charge isn't, you have a problem with the vent, not the lock. In that case I suggest that you use a pick to clear the vent before you shoot. Possibly even open it up a tad with a drill, but no larger than 1/16th of an inch.
On the other hand, if the sparks from the flint aren't firing the priming charge the previous comments apply. I didn't see anyone mention wiping the frizzen face when you are charging the pan. That can cause no spark if there is soot build up on it. I try to wipe mine down with my thumb before closing it after adding the primer charge.
~WH~
WH
Not getting enough spark to light up the pan! I've picked the vent prior to every attempt to fire...and also wiped the frizzen off as well as the flint to make sure it was clean. ::) Vent hole is 1/16".
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I agree with rollingb that the flint does look on the short size. Is that the Late English Lock? Their site says to use a 3/4" flint. Are you saying that when the rifle doesn't fire that the pan doesn't flash. Is your flint tight? Does the lock and frizzen operate freely with no binding in and out of the gun?
Yes...this is the Late English Lock and 3/4" flint installed. The pan doesn't flash and I'm using good Goex 4F powder in the pan. Also I've been keeping the pan clean and free of any moisture! I've got this Lock out and I'm sending to L&R tomorrow for a rework job! Seems to be OK as for as operation but I want those guys to look it over at L&R!
Thanks!
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I'm curious to hear what they find. Keep us posted, would you?
~WH~
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I'm curious to hear what they find. Keep us posted, would you?
~WH~
Sent the lock off yesterday! :bl th up
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I'm curious to hear what they find. Keep us posted, would you?
~WH~
Sent the lock off yesterday! :bl th up
IMHO, which is little more than just one more added opinion, you did the right thing. :bl th up
Fortunately, on all the flintlocks I have owned over the years, I have never owned one that had a problem sparking that I couldn't pretty easily work out....other small problems such as flint position, poor quality flints, my lack of knowledge in dressing a flint, and other little things like binding, or rubbing, have popped up from time to time, but I have really been lucky in the respect of the flint sparking when it wasn't my fault.
Like WH mentioned, it will sure be interesting to hear what they have to say.
Although I've never had that problem before, we all know and realize that I could very well be just one shot away from something else going south on me.....but ya still gotta love 'em!
Uncle Russ...
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Uncle Russ
The way I figured it is that if I sent to L&R and they reworked as I requested.....once it gets back with their seal of OK.....I'll know that it's either me not having something right.....or something that I have to get right! Pretty simple the way I've got it in my mind! From all I've read and looked at pertaining to where the flint should be in relation to the pan at stoppage....this Locks' stoppage was a bit far from where it should be relation-wise to the pan. If I'm wrong.....so be it! :toast
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I'm just going to throw this in real quick about my little L&R John Bailes flintlock, and a problem I had with it once. I ended up solving it myself (probably more luck then anything else),,, but what happened was that the top of my Jaw Screw was actually nicking the top of my frizzen (just barely) and causing my frizzen to open with minimal flint to metal contact and only showing a few sparks...
So after realizing I wasn't moving my flint forward after dressing my flint so many times - it finally dawned on me... :Doh!
I also noticed that when using chert flints for quite awhile my frizzin would stop shaving metal for sparks so I'd replace the chert flint with a Black English Flint and it would actually clean up the frizzen (after some usage) and I could go back to my chert flints.
Those flintlock frizzen's can be finicky... :shake
I've no doubt L&R will get you back into the shooting game! :bl th up
Forgot to mention,,, I think sometimes on real humid days that the Missouri chert flints draw a bit of moister into them... Just my observation.
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We have LOTS of humidity right now as Tropical Storm Cindy is in the state! I'm in North Louisiana....but it's coming right on up! :Doh! ::)
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We have LOTS of humidity right now as Tropical Storm Cindy is in the state! I'm in North Louisiana....but it's coming right on up! :Doh! ::)
Here's hoping that all you get is a little rain. :bl th up
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I'm curious to hear what they find. Keep us posted, would you?
~WH~
Got the below reply back from L & R this morning:
Hi Rick
We have your lock fixed up and ready to go, we installed a new forged mainspring and a new sear that gives you a longer hammer throw. With these changes the lock works great, we did clean the frizzen face up also. The total including S/H is $48.50.
Thank You
Tim Thompson
I thanked them kindly and paid for service rendered! :hairy :toast :toast
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I'd say that was money well spent! :bl th up
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I'd say that was money well spent! :bl th up
Joe
Got the Lock back installed this morning after a little oil in the right places and was able to fire six shots from 100 yards before rain ran me off. Lock is smooth as a greased door knob....flint stops exactly where it's supposed to just above the pan but above the flash-hole so as not to burn the flint. I had noticed somewhat of a 'lag' in ignition previously before sending off but now....appears just as fast as my Caplock...no lag! I'm pleased! :hairy :toast
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4250/35211898840_a9ce93969c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VDybL9)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/VDybL9) by Sharps Man (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/), on Flickr
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with a good fast flintlock, I've never felt like I gave up anything to a caplock.
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That just has to make you feel good about sending that lock in and getting it back with great results! :hairy
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That just has to make you feel good about sending that lock in and getting it back with great results! :hairy
Absolutely....and I have conveyed my respects to the L & R guys for their quality workmanship! :bow :bl th up
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That is great, and the shooting is impressive also!
~WH~