Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Traditional Firearms => Flintlock Long Guns => Topic started by: Steven Goselin on July 30, 2017, 10:48:36 AM
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I am new to muskets and smoothbores in general. The bore of my new .69 musket mic's at .682. Around what size ball should I be trying. The manufacturer is recommending .620 - .644. Any thoughts? I know that just like with a rifle I will end up trying different size balls, patches etc. I am not a reenactor and will likely not bother making paper cartridges, but just patch and ball. The videos I have watched seem to show very undersized balls that can be loaded very quickly in the traditional manner. However, it would seem to me that a tighter ball would promote better accuracy? Am I off base on this. Thoughts and help appreciated. Thank you.
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i've had smoothbores in .54, .58 and .62 actual bore sizes. since there is no rifling to "eat" some of the patching, it will take some testing to see what works best for the gun in question. that is, a much smaller ball and thicker patch, or larger ball and much thinner patch. for my .62 i use either a .600 ball and .010 patching or a .595 ball and .015 patching. as always, the patching is well greased into its fibers with gato feo lube. both ball/patch combinations will yield acceptable accuracy for me, at sane shooting distances. most smoothbores/muskets/fowlers/whatever-ya-wanna-call-'em, have two strikes against them from the get-go; no rifling and no rear sight. but ain't that half the fun? 8)
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A "smooth" bore is a whole different animal than a "rifled" bore, and have little in common other than they'll both shoot black powder and ball. :bl th up
Unlike a rifled bore, a bare ball can sometimes be more accurate in a smoothie than a patched ball when wads, or "wadding" is used.
Unless you're usin' balls that are quite a bit smaller than bore diameter, I'd start out experimentin' with wads rather than patches.
Some smoothies seem to do well with a "powder-wad-ball-wad" load, and some like a "powder-ball-wad" load, with balls that vary just a few .00?'s smaller than bore size, on down to smaller balls that are a few .0?0's smaller than bore size.
All smooth bores will "spit" out whatever you can get down their bores,.... the fun part is figgerin' out what they'll shoot most accurately, whether it's a bare ball or a patched ball (especially since we have so many different diameter balls, and molds, available today).
In my meager experience, only one thing is absolutely certain when it comes to smoothies,... rarely do two (nearly) identical bores like the same exact load. :bl th up
Have fun,.... and keep us informed of your progress. Hopefully those with A LOT more experience shootin' smooth bores (than me), will jump in with some advice that will help both of us out. :bl th up :shake :*:
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rondo brings up a good point about a tow loaded bare ball and no patching. i've got a mess of good tow that i've used with whatever smoothies i'd have on hand and i'll tell ya, that tow wadding method can be more accurate than a patched ball. i never tried the military paper "cartridge" load, dunno how accurate they'd be, my guess is not as much as patched or wadded ball loads. however, i don't like the idea of lead rubbing the insides of the barrel at high speed, so i stick with patched balls.
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The Goose, Rollingb is right on the money! Also, if you haven't read (or viewed) Mike Beliveau's smoothbore load tests, they're worth a look: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/304523/
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That's why I love this forum. Great info guys. I have some .678 balls in the way. I will try those with a wad. Eventually I will cast my own once I get it figured out. The figuring out is the fun, but a little direction sure helps.
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Goose, A few years back I got interested in smoothies and it turned into an education with quite a few surprises. First off, I learned that the stories about smoothbores not being accurate are just plain bunk. Once a preferred load is worked up the old smoothie will give a lot of rifles a run for their money. The stories about poor accuracy came from military muskets where speed in loading and the ability to fire shot after shot without swabbing the bore was the goal. Balls used were substantially smaller than bore size to accomplish this and accuracy, or lack thereof, was a secondary consideration.
Another surprise for me was that using a cloth patch didn't necessary result in the best accuracy. Shotgun wads, and by that I mean a ball sandwiched between over-powder and over-shot card wads, often did as well or better on the target than a tight patch. Using wads also had another advantage, I could shoot a single ball, buckshot, or birdshot with the same wads.
A really big surprise came when I tried tow. I frankly didn't expect much but it was historically correct so I gave it a go. I dumped down a powder charge, stuffed a wad of tow in the muzzle, pushed a ball down on it and added another wad of tow. The whole shebang was then rammed down to sit on the powder. I'm guessing that the rear wad tended to get blown forward to surround the ball and center it in the bore. Whatever happened, the result on the target was good and once again I could shoot single ball, buckshot, or birdshot.
Unfortunately, I have never owned a .69 cal smoothie. I've had Brown Bess in .72 cal and other smoothies in .62 cal/20 gauge. and in every case I used a ball that was a few thousandths smaller that actual bore size. For instance, most of the .62's would actually mic between .615" - .618". I used balls that measured .600" - .615" with good results. Check with Track of the Wolf or one of the other outfits to see what they offer. Better yet, Jeff Tanner over in England will custom cut you a mould to your specifications and his prices are reasonable.
Have fun,
John
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Myself, I'm still in the learning stages of the smoothie (NW Trade Gun .58 / 24 ga)... So far (and I have a bunch more testing to do) I have found newspaper wadding works pretty good at this point with a .575 ball. I'm going to run with the wadding for a while and test different charges and ball sizes. Hopefully I can get back at it this coming Wednesday. :)
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Where do I get tow?
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got mine from The Woolery (https://woolery.com/flax-tow-1-lb.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwqvvLBRDIARIsAMYuvBF_WhDfoTbEFSlK8Nb4ox8iemhIvlUTrkHW10y1sWvPHXvyzrnqTIEaArt_EALw_wcB)
also Flax 4 Sale (http://flaxforsale.com/html/the_store.html)
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Where do I get tow?
Dixie Gun Works is another source.
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I buy my tow here,........
http://www.townsends.us/linen-tw195-p-1389.html
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The Goose, Rollingb is right on the money! Also, if you haven't read (or viewed) Mike Beliveau's smoothbore load tests, they're worth a look: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/304523/
I checked out those videos. Really helped, thank you.
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I buy my tow here,........
http://www.townsends.us/linen-tw195-p-1389.html
I ordered some. They seem to have the best price
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there is NO doubt to me, after doing the testing, that a dual tow wadded ball gave me the better overall accuracy with all the smoothbores i've owned. but again, i had barrel leading that needed attention and i did not appreciate the chore to clean it out, so i'm sticking with a careful patched ball and YMMV.
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there is NO doubt to me, after doing the testing, that a dual tow wadded ball gave me the better overall accuracy with all the smoothbores i've owned. but again, i had barrel leading that needed attention and i did not appreciate the chore to clean it out, so i'm sticking with a careful patched ball and YMMV.
I am going to experiment with all of the methods and see what works best in my gun(s). I just acquired a repro French musket and am having a New England fowler built. I foresee a lot of smoothbore experimentation in my near future. I greatly appreciate everyone's help and will keep you guys informed as I learn. I am really looking forward to this process
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if you love getting into our nation's earliest history, and you love guns, the smoothbore was THE weapon of its time, right up past the rev war and into the golden age. the smoothbore is a jack of all trades and master of some. always GOT to have at least one smoothie in the gun safe. :bl th up
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A really big surprise came when I tried tow. I frankly didn't expect much but it was historically correct so I gave it a go. I dumped down a powder charge, stuffed a wad of tow in the muzzle, pushed a ball down on it and added another wad of tow. The whole shebang was then rammed down to sit on the powder. I'm guessing that the rear wad tended to get blown forward to surround the ball and center it in the bore. Whatever happened, the result on the target was good and once again I could shoot single ball, buckshot, or birdshot.
John, my last outing a week or two back, the last three shots I took I loaded; Powder, pushed a paper (newspaper) wad down the bore a bit then put the ball center on top of the wad and pushed it down on the powder. I then followed with another newspaper wad on top the ball (the ball was a .575) for my .58 cal/24 ga.) I did my last three shots of the day that way and they actually got into the scoring rings of an NRA TQ-4 100 yard target I posted at 25 yards (2 - 8's and one 6)... It has been the best (offhand) accuracy I've had to this point... I'm still learning however as this is my first smoothie. I do believe there is something to what you're saying as I couldn't even get the performance I mentioned above with a patched ball. So I'm going to try the above method for awhile and test some larger balls and heavier loads.
Perhaps I just got lucky that day, but the previous 4 shots (that were patched) didn't even get anywhere on the target. As a side note I did not swab the bore at any time during that 7 shot outing, so perhaps that helped at the point of going to the paper wadding?
(http://i.imgur.com/YPbHdtQ.jpg) (http://imgur.com/YPbHdtQ)
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A really big surprise came when I tried tow. I frankly didn't expect much but it was historically correct so I gave it a go. I dumped down a powder charge, stuffed a wad of tow in the muzzle, pushed a ball down on it and added another wad of tow. The whole shebang was then rammed down to sit on the powder. I'm guessing that the rear wad tended to get blown forward to surround the ball and center it in the bore. Whatever happened, the result on the target was good and once again I could shoot single ball, buckshot, or birdshot.
John, my last outing a week or two back, the last three shots I took I loaded; Powder, pushed a paper (newspaper) wad down the bore a bit then put the ball center on top of the wad and pushed it down on the powder. I then followed with another newspaper wad on top the ball (the ball was a .575) for my .58 cal/24 ga.) I did my last three shots of the day that way and they actually got into the scoring rings of an NRA TQ-4 100 yard target I posted at 25 yards (2 - 8's and one 6)... It has been the best (offhand) accuracy I've had to this point... I'm still learning however as this is my first smoothie. I do believe there is something to what you're saying as I couldn't even get the performance I mentioned above with a patched ball. So I'm going to try the above method for awhile and test some larger balls and heavier loads.
Perhaps I just got lucky that day, but the previous 4 shots (that were patched) didn't even get anywhere on the target. As a side note I did not swab the bore at any time during that 7 shot outing, so perhaps that helped at the point of going to the paper wadding?
(http://i.imgur.com/YPbHdtQ.jpg) (http://imgur.com/YPbHdtQ)
Joe, Not bad at all! A couple of things come to mind while reading earlier posts. On a few occasions I nearly started a grass fire when using tow. Things tend to get a mite dry in the summertime here in Texas. You might want to keep an eye peeled when using newspaper as well although the grass in your photo still looks pretty green. My second thought is actually for RobD. I've always avoided using anything but soft lead in my rifle because it will conform with the patch to the rifling but smoothbores don't seem to care. They don't have those squiggly grooves in the bore to contend with. Balls cast from wheel weight metal don't seem to lead the bore in a smoothie nearly as much as the pure stuff.
John
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You might want to keep an eye peeled when using newspaper as well although the grass in your photo still looks pretty green.
That's the very thing I do all the time, John. Regardless if it's green or brown I always watch and walk the Range area where my patches (and now wads) go from the muzzle. You just never know and a little scouting is always a good idea. :hairy
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if you love getting into our nation's earliest history, and you love guns, the smoothbore was THE weapon of its time, right up past the rev war and into the golden age. the smoothbore is a jack of all trades and master of some. always GOT to have at least one smoothie in the gun safe. :bl th up
I haven't put any shots from my new NWTG on paper yet, but I've already made a bunch of "kills" with it. :hairy
If you smoothbore fellas ain't tried dumpin' 30-35 grs. of FFFG down yore bore (no wad and no ball),.... primein' the pan,.... and drawin' a bead on a big ol'wasp nest covered with wasps, from about 6-8 feet away, yore missin a bunch of fun. :) :toast
I'm not sure what the 2017 legal "bag limit" is on wasps, but I sure got a bunch of'em yesterday. :laffing
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Gus I'd suggest you try something like a .675 or a .672 ball. You are correct. The military ammo is for speed loading first, and accuracy second. What men who were designated as "marksmen" did was to prepare a few cartridges with extra wraps of paper to snug up the ball for a few shots. However, as with a rifle, fouling would mean they would either after a few shots need to swab the bore, OR they would switch to the less accurate military ammo. Track of the Wolf sells ball near the bore size of your gun. https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/127/3 (https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/127/3)
LD
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Now that sounds like some fun Rondo, and cheaper then a can of wasp spray! :applaud :hairy
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Ordered tow from Townsends on Monday and it arrived this morning (Wed.). Also got balls from Track of Wolf. Gonna do some shooting soon.
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Ordered tow from Townsends on Monday and it arrived this morning (Wed.). Also got balls from Track of Wolf. Gonna do some shooting soon.
Please keep us updated with reports. :hairy