Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Shooting Traditional Firearms and Weapons => General Interest => Topic started by: Mike in Oz on September 27, 2017, 07:14:55 AM
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G'day all,
I was just in the shed casting .490 round balls for my new 50 cal rifle and as i finished i got the scale out and started weighting and examining the balls as i normally do.
I kept everything in the 176-177 grain range and everything else went back in the pot.
Then i looked at the time and got to thinking how much time i spent on such a simple task.
So i ask you, who else weighs their (round) balls and who doesn't?
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Hi Mike,
I haven't cast balls near as much as others on the forum here, and I'm sure those that do will chime in soon. I have cast some, but I've not weighed them, and that is only because I don't have the small proper scale to do so. From your post it sound like you're doing what needs to be done for best accuracy keeping everything the same, and that's good for best accuracy.
However, I'm of the opinion if your just shooting at gongs or just plinking, it's probably not necessary to be to strict with the weight limit of the balls,,, but what you could do is just start another pile of 'em that weigh in (under or over) that 176-177 grain limit, and just see how they perform compared to what you're casting and keeping now. :shake
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WHY did you weigh them? ;)
Do you need the most accurate round balls that you can get? If so, :bl th up You didn't waste any time.
Otherwise, I shoot a lot of swaged round ball, and some of them aren't even fully round. :o The deer don't know the difference between a ball that will group under 2" at 100 yards and one that groups under 6" at 100 yards.
Some folks use an undersized ball and a thick patch, but it's not as tight as I get with my .530 ball and .015 patch..., they have slightly larger groups than I at 50 yards, but again, the deer don't know the difference, BUT when those guys shoot matches, they use self cast, round ball and weigh their stuff.
LD
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After reading a thread in another forum about cast and swaged ball weight inconsistency, I started weighing my cast balls. I found inconsistent weights. I cast for 32, 36, 45, 50, 54, 56, and 58 calibers. I now weigh the balls I cast using the following criteria: For 45 caliber and under, I hold a .5 grain +/- standard. For 50 caliber and above my tolerance is +/- 1.0 grains. I use a relatively inexpensive electronic scale, set the tare wt for the middle of my tolerance level, and weigh the cooled cast balls. All the over, or under balls go back in the pot.
I have also found that it is best to weigh a bunch of the cast balls to get an average, and use that average as my tare wt. Different batches of lead will produce different weight balls.
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I cast quite a few round balls and don't weigh'em anymore.
I used to years ago, but didn't see any noticeable difference in accuracy with the type of shootin' I was doing.
Besides,.... "IF" I weighed every ball I cast and held them to a strict standard, that would be one less excuse I'd have for missin'. :o :)
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"Besides,.... "IF" I weighed every ball I cast and held them to a strict standard, that would be one less excuse I'd have for missin'. :o :)" ...rollingb
So true, rolling! OTOH, I still weigh my RB's even though it may not be necessary or an efficient use of my time. Besides, with an electronic scale and calculator handy, the task goes quickly. Ironically, I no longer weigh the bullets I cast for my CF rifles and revolvers, and John Alexander, president of the Cast Bullet Association, doesn't see the need to do so either. (Must end here as I have a small pile of RB's to weigh! :laffing)
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Just weighed over 100 .355 balls +- 0.4 gr. And about 50 minie balls sized to .575 plus or minus 2.0 gr. As said w a cheap digital scale w tare function it doesn't take long.
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I dare say, if'n you're shooting offhand you will never notice a difference, if there is a variation in weight.
On the other hand, if you are shooting from a solid rest, and shooting for the best score that has ever been shot, then you might as well weigh them. Otherwise, it is just something you do to amuse yourself.
Being a lazy sort, the only thing I have ever cast was whatever I could not find swaged ball for, like .678, .715, .820 and .980. The other sizes I shot were .530 and .610 and those were readily available as swaged ball.
Did I ever weigh them? Yeah, a long time ago. But like I said, all I was shooting was standing, so who cares if it is off a couple of grains or so. It surely has not made a bit of difference to my scores.
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I doubt the average gent worried much about weighing them back in the day. Maybe some did though... I have read where the old guys would sometimes chew used or wrong sized ball so they would fit their particular bore... They would cast their own with custom moulds made for their particular gun, AND use bought or borrowed precast ball in their hand forged and reamed barrels that had varying bore sizes and not at all consistent or standard like we have today.
There is nothing wrong with weighing your roundball for consistency, but its a relatively modern convention. If you do that, also mic your patching material, take care to use the same amount of the same lube, and use a scale to make sure you ram the ball down with the same exact pressure each time. You might also weigh your powder instead of measuring it by volume. A decent scope and a firm rest might help too.
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I have never separated cast balls by weight, for me a patched round ball is pretty forgiving, out of round, a little over or under weight they all seem to shoot in the same place. I suspect the patch is the equalizer.
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I've cast the great majority of the round balls I've fired over the last fifty or so years. Of those, most were weighed before shooting. It's not a question of weight alone but of what that weight variation means. A ball that looks okay but is lighter than the rest has an air pocket, bit of dross, or both somewhere inside. Set that ball to spinning and it will have a center of gravity that's not in the exact middle of the ball. It's going to spin around the CG, wherever it may be. The lopsided rotation will change the trajectory of the ball in flight. So if you are seeking the best possible accuracy you should weigh the balls you shoot. For me, it's a part of the hobby. It has been rainy here in Texas the past couple of days. Perfect time to cast some balls, let them cool, and weigh them. I call it fun. Others may call it a chore they would just as soon skip. Nothing wrong with that either.
John
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All: I've rarely weighed my rb's, only when curious what a .535 weighs. I have a question to those of you that do routinely weigh the rb's. Have you ever split one open to check for voids?????? Especially the light ones? Once I learned how to cast and avoid voids(?????) I really haven't checked my results unless serious about the best group obtainable. Ross happy shootin'
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though i did in the dim past, i see no pressing need to weigh balls, no matter if .311 or .600 in size. what's more important are voids within the pure lead. i try to minimize that by over pouring the lead onto the mould - just dump about the ladle's worth on to keep the heat up to allow any mould air to dissipate and for a generous sprue puddle to allow for lead contraction as it cools.
a super long patched ball shot for me would be perhaps 75 yards, with the rest between 25 and 50 yards. a few grains here and there for a patched ball weight ain't gonna matter much, at least for me.
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I too once thought that weighing round balls was a waste of time until I compared the group location of some of my reject "light" balls, and the average weight balls. The groups for the light balls were consistently higher ( by as much as 3" with my 50 caliber gun) and generally 2-3" to the right of the aiming point at 50 yards. To me, that is a significant discrepancy that i don't want to have to account for when shooting at the range or at game. I prefer to keep one sight setting, so the light ones go back in the pot now.
I guess I haven't yet become proficient enough to eliminate air pockets when I cast. I average 5-6 rejects per 100, and I believe I usually get the rejects when the pot gets low. I now try to keep the pot at least 3/4 full while casting, but i still weigh the cast balls, just to be sure. I like to eliminate as many variables as possible when shooting, so any bad shots I have to blame on me and not the gun or load.
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I do not weigh balls I do take a good look at them frosted, wrinkald go back in the pot,
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Since i started tossing, light, heavy, frosted or wrinkled balls back in the pot I've noticed a considerable improvement in accuracy and a real lack of flyers.
So i'm going to go with if it works, it ain't stupid! ;D
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as long as yer casting from the same pot of "pure" lead, the big problem will be air inclusions. after filling the mould cavity, if you dump the entire ladle of remaining lead ONTO the mould, aimed at the sprue hole, you will probably find that all the balls you've cast will be very very close in physical weight. also, lots will hafta do with how close you cut off the sprue if the mould doesn't have a sprue cutter plate.
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I have no doubt that weighing, sorting and throwing the bad-uns back in the pot will improve your groups. Eliminating or controlling the variables is exactly what muzzleloading accuracy is all about. Same goes for Archery, Golf, Ping Pong, Nascar, Knitting, Basket weaving and every other endeavor on God's earth. Historically speaking, the average 18th C shooter most certainly practiced good casting technique and threw the poorly cast ones back in the pot, and learned to keep the heat consistent etc.
If I was a competitive target shooter, you can bet I'd be weighing them, and doing whatever it took to wring the last bit of accuracy out of my riflegun. I tend to do much better at shotgun wing shooting than precision rifle shooting. Always been that way. Funny thing, my Dad was a good rifle shooter but could not hit a flying bird to save his life.
K
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While not a roundball, this Minie shows how a normal looking bullet can have a flaw. It weighed out a little over 2 gr lighter than the normal minie and an air void is visible inside the cavity. The target photo shows where I fired 3 shots of good bullets and 3 that had the air void at 75 yards from the bench. You can guess which are which.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v415/jhansen1951/IMG_0147.jpg/[img]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v415/jhansen1951/IMG_0149.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v415/jhansen1951/IMG_0144.jpg)
John
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Can anyone help me out on why Photobucket will only print one photo?
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Can anyone help me out on why Photobucket will only print one photo?
it's not you, the problem is with photobucket - you haven't heard about their $400 pay-to-play they're requiring of all members? as a result, as of weeks ago they shut down all images for all members who haven't paid them. what a scam.
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Thanks, RobD. No, I wasn't aware of the changes at Photobucket. I've been off dealing with some health problems for a while.
John
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Thanks, RobD. No, I wasn't aware of the changes at Photobucket. I've been off dealing with some health problems for a while.
John
hope yer well on the mend, john :pray:
you can attach images right from your computer to any of your posts - in fact, we recommend that.
if you attach one image, you can add the following code anywhere in your post and that's where the full size image will appear ....
[attach=1]
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Starting in the mid 1960s I have cast thousands upon thousands of rb and minie. I've always cast everything I shoot from a ML. To weigh all those, even on my digital scale, would have been an enormous waste of my time. As I cast, I do a visual check and drop culls back in the pot. I can't shoot well enough with primitive iron sights to tell any difference. Mounting a scope might work but will never happen.
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I use a bottom pour Lyman ladle so I don't get much stuff to make voids. I made me a new .40 squirrel rifle, bought me a lee mold and cast a bunch of .395 balls the other day. I never weigh balls as a rule but wanted to see what my new mold was throwing so I started weighing a bunch of them. When I got to 15 or 20 with them all weighing exactly the same I quit. Lee molds have come a long way in the last few years.
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Hey Rob,
I think i've been doing this by accident, I overfill the cast so the two molds connect, so when i bang the cutter plate over the two lumps of fiddly lead become one large easy to manage one. :lol sign
as long as yer casting from the same pot of "pure" lead, the big problem will be air inclusions. after filling the mould cavity, if you dump the entire ladle of remaining lead ONTO the mould, aimed at the sprue hole, you will probably find that all the balls you've cast will be very very close in physical weight. also, lots will hafta do with how close you cut off the sprue if the mould doesn't have a sprue cutter plate.
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I weigh them all. Those that are very light go back in the pot. For paper match shooting I group them by exact weight. Those that are close, are used for gong shoots. It's necessary for tight groups.
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Funnily enough i just cast a heap more .50 cal RB yesterday but wound up throwing over half back because the weights were seriously all over the place.
Makes me happy when i dodge problems like that. :applaud
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As long as Hornady sells swaged round balls.....I'll let them worry with that! :toast
I started 'casting' in 1948; think I've done it enough! :Doh!
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I weigh them all and take measurements with a dial caliper. You can't correct your mistakes in casting if you don't identify them. Amazingly, my casting is producing fewer and fewer balls that are out of spec. And my cast balls are much more consistent is size and weight than any swagged balls I ever bought.