Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Shooting Traditional Firearms and Weapons => General Interest => Topic started by: Uncle Russ on May 21, 2018, 04:51:47 PM
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For the past six or eight months I have wondered, and even argued, which of two rifles was actually heaver that the other.
Kees and I had a similar discussion a few months back but, at the time, I didn't have a decent flat-base with a large enough top scale to weight the rifles on....Bathroom Scales always showed the same, and I just knew in my heart that this was not right!
Rifle A; 34", 15/16" GM bbl in .54 caliber on T/C Hawken platform.
Rifle B; 28", 1" T/C bbl in .54 caliber on T/C Renegade platform, w/sling.
I got a new scale, just for this purpose, and here is what I found out;
(Nice scale with several measurements including; Grain, Gram, KG, Lb, and ounces, plus Tare (which allows you to measure the container, and then the contents of that container.)
(I even measured some Powder in "Grains", compared it to couple other dedicated powder scales, and it is right on the money.
I then measured a know 15# weight in Pounds, and again it was right on.)
I highly recommend this Scale for every shooter!
(https://i.imgur.com/GGHoDJ4.jpg)
Than came the Big Test...and the results.
Rifle A; The one I refer to as "Wind River Tacks"..... w/34" 15/16 bbl....Actual weight = 8.11.7
(https://i.imgur.com/RCxi3nM.jpg)
Rifle B: My old Renegade w/28" 1" bbl. (w/sling attached) ......Actual Weight + 8.11.6
(https://i.imgur.com/DgO7iw9.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/7W9c17l.jpg)
What I was seeing on that scale blew my mind!
And these pictures bear it out!
Such a small difference, and yet the "longer" barrel on the T/C Hawken has the feel of being at least a full one pound heaver.
Displacement of weight, which became fairly evident while balancing these rifles on the scale, is very deceiving in the actual weight of the gun.
Although the "balance point" is pretty much the same, much less than the width of your hand, that longer barrel projects the "thought" that it may be heavier.
I personally don't think there is anyone, anywhere, that can tell the actual difference in 8:11.7 and 8:11.6 !!
Still yet, everyone that has picked these two rifles up, sighted down the sights, and balanced each of them in their hand, all agree with me that the Hawken with the longer barrel feels heavier.
Ok Kees, being of the Engineer Type, what is the deal here? :bow
Inquiring minds want to know!
Uncle Russ...
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Here's my two cents. Kees can correct me if necessary, after all I'm a software engineer and, as such, don't often think about things you can actually touch. ::)
I think the heavier feel is caused by the portion of barrel from the supporting (non-trigger) hand to the barrel end being longer, ~6" in this case, giving it a mechanical advantage, i.e. a longer lever. Actually, as I think about it the fulcrum may actually be at the butt of the gun as it's placed against the shoulder. (How much support is given by the trigger hand?)
Try this experiment with your rifles and the scale. Place a support on a level table, just behind the trigger guard. Place a second support on the scale and under the end of the barrel. Make the lengths of the supports so that the barrel is level. Do this for both rifles. Probably want to use the tare feature and read the weight on the scale for each rifle.
Another way would be to support the rifles at the butt and with the scale under the spot where you normally put your non-trigger hand. See which one has more weight at that hand position.
Or, assuming the distance from your shoulder to where you put the non-trigger hand is the same for both rifles, measure the distance from that spot to the end of the barrel. Probably 6" more for the longer. It would be interesting to see how that relates to the difference in weight on that hand.
All this is ignoring any differences in the stock, sling, etc. So, if you really feeling ambitious, do similar measurements with only the barrels.
Now the the real question is, have I given you enough scientific homework assignments that you can justify, or at least rationalize, the expense of that fancy new scale?
;D
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balance is much more important than total weight! It's critical for shooting off-hand.
I always choose barrel length and contour to give the proper balance.
My GPR is heavy, and it's muzzle heavy. I added a pound of lead to the butt stock to make it balance better. Everyone who shoulders it now believes I somehow lightened it!
Some folks like muzzle heavy shotguns. They say it helps with follow through on moving targets. Not I. I shoot better if the gun is balanced with the weight between my hands.
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I never put much thought into this other then the feel of each rifle I've built and bought over the years and altered to fit me.
Now on the other hand,,, I think the letters on my posts when using my 20 inch screened desktop computer, weigh more then the ones on my 15" screened laptop... :o :laffing :Doh!
I'm sorry, I couldn't resist it... :shake
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balance is much more important than total weight! It's critical for shooting off-hand.
I always choose barrel length and contour to give the proper balance.
My GPR is heavy, and it's muzzle heavy. I added a pound of lead to the butt stock to make it balance better. Everyone who shoulders it now believes I somehow lightened it!
Some folks like muzzle heavy shotguns. They say it helps with follow through on moving targets. Not I. I shoot better if the gun is balanced with the weight between my hands.
PD, I agree whole heartedly!
I was surprised at the outcome of this exercise in total futility, but so were a couple of friends that have dropped by so far
In fact, Scott insisted on seeing it with his own eyes...then, wanting to set other objects in the scale to if it was really working.
Heavy can be good, real good when it comes to off-hand shooting.
Anyway it is what it is, and my curiosity has been satisfied.
Knowing they weigh the same does nothing insofar as shooting.
Uncle Russ...
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I cut 12" off the barrel of my old 42" barreled NorthStarWest Trade Gun last week, and I think I might'a turned her back into my newest "favorite toy",.......... at least she's gettin' shot more now. :hairy :applaud
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"I cut 12" off the barrel of my old 42" barreled NorthStarWest Trade Gun last week"
I ordered mine with a 36 inch barrel and it swings like a well balanced shotgun.
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"balance is much more important than total weight! It's critical for shooting off-hand.
I always choose barrel length and contour to give the proper balance. ...My GPR is heavy, and it's muzzle heavy."
My thoughts exactly, prairie dog! :shake
Russ, Now that I think of it, I'll bet my Isaac Haines (Waksupi built Chambers kit) weighs about the same as my muzzle heavy Ly. GPR, but the former, with its longer (39") swamped bbl. + heavy butt plate casting balances so much better. Ditto for my Mowrey v. the GPR, with the former being better balanced in spite of its 1" x 32" bbl. v. the 7/8" x 32" of the latter (same caliber as the GPR though).
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Russ, Now that I think of it, I'll bet my Isaac Haines (Waksupi built Chambers kit) weighs about the same as my muzzle heavy Ly. GPR, but the former, with its longer (39") swamped bbl. + heavy butt plate casting balances so much better. Ditto for my Mowrey v. the GPR, with the former being better balanced in spite of its 1" x 32" bbl. v. the 7/8" x 32" of the latter (same caliber as the GPR though
I know, and understand, exactly what you are saying, Maven :bl th up
In fact, my situation was very similar, and the very reason and purpose behind this rather laughable exercise.
The Hawken "looks" much heavier, with the 6" longer barrel, and balances just a wee bit different, about "a finger width" to be exact, but it somehow gives the impression it is indeed a heavier rifle when hefted.
And, I am not the only one to say this, just about everybody that compared the two rifles said the very same thing, so much so that it set my old mind to thinking and wondering what the difference really was.
I don't believe there is a single person in this world that can the difference in 1/10th of one ounce, but everyone agreed the Hawken is heavier than the old Renegade with the shorter 1" barrel when they initially pick them up.
I had to repeat the weighing several times myself, I just couldn't believe what the scales were telling me.
That's when I decided I had to take a picture of all this craziness.
Uncle Russ...
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Sorry to be so late at this shindig, I've been trying to limit my confuser time as it was getting out of hand!
Anyway, I believe that Sharp Stick has the answer - there is more barrel sticking out which makes it feel muzzle heavy on the Hawken. Plus, we often subconsciously think that something is "heavy" just by looking at the physical dimensions. so your brain may see the longer rifle as being heavier, just because it "looks" heavier....
Nice scale, by the way. Could you enlighten us as to where you got it, and what brand/model it is?
-Kees-
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Use swamped barrels, eliminate the perception!
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I've had a few Renegades and they were front end heavy! My Pennsy/Hawken half stock 54 cal is heavy better balanced. BUT the 54 cal Chambers put together by Robert Ray Rice swamped 38" barrel is like a total different critter to shoulder. It floats up
MY 40 Vincent who big brother is a 45 same style and barrel length my get a hair cut this summer. I'm thinking of taking the barrel edges past the half stock and making them flat to reduce the weight from 7lb & change to below 7lb.
I have shipped quite a few barrels and most that are 28 to 40" all seem to weigh in around 4 to 5.5 pounds.
You want to see a weight difference? weight your stocks. I have just about a full 1/2 pound in the 45 Vincent stock over the 40 cal. I figure the difference is in the wood grain being denser/more grain.
When I was shooting lots of shotgun I would carry the gun around the house with me to get use to the feel and weight. I have done this with muzzle loaders in the past. Since I'm not shooting as much maybe that habit should be looked into again.