Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Craftsmanship => Gun Building and Repair => Topic started by: RobD on September 13, 2018, 05:45:55 PM
-
so i have this .62 smoothbore that i had commissioned jackie brown to build for me in the fall of 2016 that arrived at me in the winter of 2017. a simple farmer's gun, nothing at all fancy. i received it in-the-white and stained and clear coated the stock. since i had to pull the barrel to do the finishing work, i also pulled the breech plug out and sure enuf, it wasn't anti-seize lubed as i had asked for. looking inside was what appeared to be a burr from drilling and tapping for the flush liner (which i asked to be a chambers white lightning but was a knock-off instead). i used a stone bit on a dremel to smooth down that "burr" but didn't get it flush. the gun shot well, however, and is very pleasing to hold and shoot, with a very crisp trigger.
(https://i.imgur.com/7KJXIul.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/0L0qYat.jpg)
running down a patched jag would always catch on that "burr". yesterday i decided to fix it once and for all, pulled the barrel and breech plug, and after careful examination i realized it wasn't a burr, it was the touch hole liner protruding into the chamber. a big no-no. i needed to pull the liner and file it down, but it's a flush liner with no slot and no hex key socket. i oil up the liner and attack it with an EZ-out ... the liner starts to move and ever so slightly raises up - good. then the EZ-out snaps off flush to the liner. cr@p. i really never liked or trusted EZ-outs and i just *knew* it was a mistake.
spoke to my barrel smith in PA, bobby hoyt, and he said i've got real problem due to the hardness of that busted screw - which i knew, but was hoping bobby could throw me a hail mary pass that i could catch. we talked over several possible remedies but all were guesses.
i decided to drill a pair of 3/32" holes on either side of the busted screw and drop in some cut 3/32" music wire and use the leverage of a clamped vise grips to wiggle the sucker out. didn't work. what next?
i put a 1" carbide wheel in the dremel and ran it against the side of a grinding wheel that dropped its diameter to 3/8". i used the wheel to cut a slot between the edges of the holes i had drilled, wedged in a screwdriver and twisted counter-clockwise with a bit of downward pressure to keep the blade in the slot. it worked. free at last. amen. a few 1/4x28 touch hole liners on order. :bl th up
(https://i.imgur.com/2dlvjqe.jpg)
-
you are one lucky son of a gun. I can just imagine the how this would have turned out for me, and it is not good. Glad you were able to get it out. Make sure when you get your new White Lightning touch hole liner that you measure the barrel wall depth(thickness?) and file the liner before installation.
-
the mistake i made was not removing that liner and nikal lubing it the day it arrived, rather than let it languish with NO lube and a lot of black powder residue that was in those liner threads.
nope, no WL liner for me, i've had good use with both slot and allen key hole liners.
-
What an ordeal, Rob! Glad you were able to fix Mr. Brown's hamhandedness! :bl th up
-
Sorry to hear of the problems with that smoothie, Rob. Whoever installed that liner, well that's a rookie mistake for sure of the person not checking it not only by removing the breech plug for a visual, but also running some tight patches down to make sure there would be no snagging the patch. Disappointing for sure. Glad you got it fixed.
-
A number of years ago, on another forum, Jackie Brown was discussed. Some were impressed with his work, but others seemed to feel he was cutting corners. The man himself is, I understand, nice enough and many of his guns are well made but others not so good. Considering the price for his pieces it is a shame to hear of your problems! ::)
~Kees~
-
ah yes, mr. jackie brown, gunmaker of renown. there is a reason his gun offerings are so cheap, and i knew that going into the smoothbore commission i entered with him. i also let him know i'd be critiquing his work in public forums, as an incentive that hopefully this smoothbore would at least be ok, not stellar. i knew his track record and i took a gamble. there are more than a few things about the gun that were just plain wrong - and i let him know that. as of now, once the new liner goes in, all the issues will be rectified. it is a good gun, good in the hands, good shooter. but if you didn't have the tools and ability to perform "guerilla gunsmithing" you would not be a happy camper with this smoothbore, and probably any other gun that jackie literally blows out for sale.
-
My Jackie Brown trade gun is my favorite flinter but it did have issues when I got it. Mostly burrs on screw holes. I sent it back and he fixed it, to his credit he also installed a set of his sling attachments for free. I have never had a gun that handles so well.
IronHand
-
My Jackie Brown trade gun is my favorite flinter but it did have issues when I got it. Mostly burrs on screw holes. I sent it back and he fixed it, to his credit he also installed a set of his sling attachments for free. I have never had a gun that handles so well.
IronHand
i agree on with ya, when it comes to the smoothbore he made for me. it's light, great in the hands, and points fast. there were a LOT of issues with his "workmanship" and i don't mean non-functional concerns. i have a full article that describes my jackie brown experience, and this is after telling him point blank specifically what i want commissioned, what parts to use, what i expect the gun should be, and that i'm going to publicly review the gun he makes for me. i could have gotten better results from talking to a wall, for the most part. he just does what he wants to do.
dealing with mr. brown is a total cr@pshoot, and so do beware. there are legions of folks who've had jackie brown gun issues, and not just buggered screw holes.
that he CAN make a very good to great trad muzzleloader is a fact. but that one outta ten might not be what yer gonna get.
-
Here is a quote from Jackie Brown himself back in 2007 - about dealing with gun builders... You all can draw your own conclusion's... Mine are simple "practice what ya preach" if you'r a builder and giving out this advise. :o
http://www.historicaltrekking.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=439
-
every word that jackie typed in his "announcement" about how to deal with gun makers was and is a complete lie as it applies to HIM. he has, and continues to violate everything righteous he says he stands for.
jackie brown lies constantly about how he does business, what he can do for you, how long it will take to get the job done, and what the completed gun will be when you eventually get it. just lie after lie after lie. some of his lies are almost laughable, particular the seemingly constant catastrophic family diseases that prevent him from working on YOUR gun, while he's working on someone else's gun that he promised that person five months ago.
this is not slander. all of this happened to me, too, in my deal with jackie brown. he is an out and out liar and scoundrel. he chooses to be what he is, just as he could choose to do the right thing by all, and make wonderful guns.
that's the truly sad part of everything about jackie brown - IF and WHEN he chooses, which is rarely, he can make as good a gun as anyone. what a waste of a man and his talent. he's just out to make as easy a buck as possible, at his client's expense.
-
There's been to many horror stories about what he's turning out. It's a darn shame.
-
Null.
-
new 1/4x28 liners arrived from TOTW ... wow, that was Fast!
as expected, the liners were far too long, so i took a piece of 3/32" mild steel and d/t'd it for 1/4x28, then threaded in a liner, vised it and cut it down with a dremel carbide wheel. filed it up a tad and was surprised to see such a good fit on the first try. nikaled it in, then vised the barrel again and spun in the nikal'd breech plug. put the gun together and i think she's gonna be good to go ... at last.
trivia kudos to anyone who knows what is that piece of 3/32" steel plate's original intended use .... 8)
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
-
it ain't fixed by a longshot, just a bandaid job for now. the countersink for the touch hole liner is mighty deep and leaves sparse threads. i'm kinda leery of that.
i talked it all over with jim chambers the other night. the game plan is to first drill and tap for a 5/16"x32 WL liner and see how she goes. if need be, i'll open that up to 3/8"x32 and file down any of the liner past the flat. at this point, i'll take function over form any day. i suspect i may be be happier with the 3/8" liner.
-
Rob, on those first pictures you posted, I did notice the thread, and to my eye it didn't look as if there were but maybe three? It was hard to get a count. I always prefer a minimum of 4 threads (though I do shoot a .45 Dickert with a 13/16 barrel and I have 3.5 threads holding that vent in and have never had a problem with it. However, you're dealing with much heavier charges in that smoothbore that I deal with in that .45...
They certainly counter-sunk that vent liner on your smoothy, no doubt about that.
Let me throw this out here;
I normally make my own vent liners from a #5 bolt.
I noticed you said you were going with perhaps a 3/8 liner?
Is it possible you could go with a 5/16 #5 "fine thread" bolt rather then opening up anymore then needed with the 3/8 liner?
Just some thoughts. :shake
-
joe, the flats are 7/16" wide, so that means no problem drilling out the 1/4x28 for white lightnin 5/16x32. when i drill out, i'll see how much of the countersink goes away, then i'll tap it and see how many threads i'll get. if it doesn't look ok, i'll drill out for the 3/8x32 white lightnin and that will probably mean the liner's flange will go over the flat and will need filing down - no problem for me, function over form. in conjunction with the above is how a 5/16" or 3/8" liner will line up with the breech plug, which is already grooved and might need some more work.
[ Invalid Attachment ]
-
Another idea would be to drill it out larger than the counter sink and drill & tap for a bolt. install that with thread lock to be flush with the chamber, cut it off even with the barrel flat and then d&t for a new vent liner.
~Kees~
-
Another idea would be to drill it out larger than the counter sink and drill & tap for a bolt. install that with thread lock to be flush with the chamber, cut it off even with the barrel flat and then d&t for a new vent liner.
~Kees~
if i drill out and thread for a 7/16" bolt, i guess there'd be enuf sidewall meat of the bolt to drill and tap for a 1/4x32 liner. sounds like a lot going on in a pressure ridden area of the barrel? dunno. but if it came down to that, i'd do it!
i think the worse case scenario will be drilling for the 3/8x32 WL liner - that should wipe out the countersink ... but after the liner goes in and gets cut off it'll also require filing at the flats for the part that'll hang over. might not look so good but at this point i'd rather have a shooting gun than a wall hanger. :o ;D
-
with the liners and d/t's having arrived a few days ago, yesterday i had the time to forge ahead. locked the barrel in the drill press vise, lined up the for the 5/16x32 liner bit and had at it. the resulting hole took out a lot of the original countersink.
before - jackie's knock-off 1/4x28 flush liner and uber deep countersink ...
(https://i.imgur.com/MiAyJ35.jpg)
... drilled open the original vent hole, which removed more than half the original countersink ...
(https://i.imgur.com/teumS7B.jpg)
... then i tapped the hole ... it looks reasonably deep on the front (facing the muzzle) and sides ...
(https://i.imgur.com/P6PbCOE.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/eSdtEb5.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2hHC4wG.jpg)
... but less threads for the back because jackie drilled into the breech plug and created a channel in it ...
(https://i.imgur.com/LGmOzUp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3a4dG38.jpg)
... installing the vent liner - i can't get it in all the way, there's a whisker's space visible.
i guess that's ok and i'll just file it flush after cutting off the plug end ...
(https://i.imgur.com/WvzdBmt.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qLmRGxm.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/vm3U6Wc.jpg)
there's a bit of the liner into the barrel.
need to mark and file off or the breech plug would hit it when i screw it back in.
(https://i.imgur.com/uMZcklm.jpg)
-
It's certainly look'in better than it did to start with. :hairy
I've never understood why some people refuse to allow for "liner/breech face clearance" when building a flinter these days, they only need to split the difference to allow for a liner by inletting the barrel back an additional "hair" and the lock forward a "smidgen" during the build.
Such things are totally inexcusable when knowing a liner WILL likely be installed sometime during the "life time" of the gun. (http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/angry/pulling-hair-out.gif) (http://www.sherv.net/)
-
all done. turned out real nice. will test it out friday.
needed to file off about 1/16" so the liner would fit flush inside the barrel. drilled and tapped a piece of steel so that i could do the filing and then freshen the threads when the liner got backed out ...
(https://i.imgur.com/i88sLbu.jpg)
screwed in the liner and breech plug, using nikal anti-seize lube for both ...
(https://i.imgur.com/ep47RZy.jpg)
hacksawed off the nub ...
(https://i.imgur.com/cYOSoHy.jpg)
filed it flush ...
(https://i.imgur.com/8uZFkDv.jpg)
drilled the touch hole out to .062" and installed the barrel back to the stock ...
(https://i.imgur.com/rkVWmNc.jpg)
-
That's looking real good, Rob! :hairy
-
That's looking real good, Rob! :hairy
Couldn't agree more!
:hairy
-
No matter how "cheap" it was or is IMO as a life long mechanic there is absolutely no excuse for not using anti-seize or removing a burr. Not even mention the fact you requested a better liner as an option.
I had one of his here purchased it and it did sell. It was a cheap.
-
That's looking real good, Rob! :hairy
+1! Now we need the report on how she functions....
~Kees~
-
she works like she should have whence she first arrived at me.
the JB smoothie is at last fine and dandy, a keeper - the banter of my peanut gallery cronies, priceless. ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73GgQQ97LNc
-
Glad to see you making smoke with it Rob,,, as it should have been from the get-go! :hairy
Looks like you had a great day for shooting, and I noticed in the video right off the feller under the canopy must of hit a long range clanger with his rifle. Was he using a muzzle loader or a black powder cartridge rifle?
-
Glad to see you making smoke with it Rob,,, as it should have been from the get-go! :hairy
Looks like you had a great day for shooting, and I noticed in the video right off the feller under the canopy must of hit a long range clanger with his rifle. Was he using a muzzle loader or a black powder cartridge rifle?
joe, that's a very private "community range" that i'm privileged to shoot at, with distances out to 700 yards (but longer might be coming, too!).
a really fine crew of folks, with a grille set up for good eats, and we do imbibe some responsible brews during lunch. it is a very very rare pleasure to be able to shoot firearms of all types, from muzzleloaders to hi-power match grade centerfire target guns, be amongst such good folk where we're all recognized as quite responsible and safety conscious, and can enjoy freedoms never to be found at any gun range. for me, worth the hour and a half drive each way.
i shot bpcr that morning with a sharps .45-70 PPB gun that i was still having chamber troubles with and only fired 5 rounds, 3 striking the 400 yard gong, but fired cases were still sticking in the chamber, problem not fixed. the weather was cloudy and wet when we got there at 8am, and when i shot the sharps. late morning the sun broke free as i was testing out the JB smoothie. i shot paper at 33 yards and a 10" gong at 41 yards, the smoothie (and me) were up to the task and i smashed the gong far more times than not, once even busting it off its shepherds hook. them big balls pack a wallop.
under the tent, rich took a shot with ed's c.sharps .45-70 PPB cartridge rifle at the 400 yard dinger, and sure enuf he hit it with his first attempt.
very soon, when gun season opens, the "range" will close down 'till next year.
-
Nice video, thanks for posting it. :hairy That big ball do rock you back, doesn't she! What load are you using?
Kees
-
... What load are you using?
Kees
65 grains of swiss 3F, .015" heavily "gato feo" greased patch, .577" lead ball. 3f in the pan as well, but she do kick off purty fast, thanx to that real jim chambers white lightnin' touch hole liner (bored out to .062"). easy chambering loose ball load, no fouling control needed 'tween shots either. it's an accurate load if i do my part, can't ask more'n that!