Traditional Muzzleloading Association

Shooting Traditional Firearms and Weapons => General Interest => Topic started by: Gambia on July 05, 2008, 07:07:17 AM

Title: Original Sporting Guns
Post by: Gambia on July 05, 2008, 07:07:17 AM: It seems that threads on original sporting guns are getting fewer,surely there must be members who shoot original sporting guns at both clays and game so lets have your views,repros are ok but give me an original every time..
Feltwad
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A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
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Post by: Gambia on July 05, 2008, 11:42:02 AM: Original muzzleloaders of all types have become so valuable at least around where I am that the owners keep them close to home if not locked up.Its bad that the owners feel that way,personally I believe they should be used.A couple of owners I am aquainted with regard their originals as investments like stocks and bonds,truly sad.
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Post by: Capt. Jas. on July 05, 2008, 11:52:06 AM: I would love to have been able to buy some of the Keith Neal collection. He shot his collectable guns.
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Post by: pathfinder on July 07, 2008, 07:39:18 AM: I have an original 20ga sxs that shoots alot better than I do! I was told that it was a "club" gun that was used by members in England who had proved themselves proficiant in both shooting an social skills in the 1860's. I don't know about all that,It's a cool gun!
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Post by: Gambia on July 07, 2008, 10:50:36 AM: Pathfinder.

How about a photo of your original sxs , who was the maker what are the proof marks .I may be able to forwad some history on the maker .
Feltwad.
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A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
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Post by: Uncle Russ on July 07, 2008, 11:44:34 AM: Quote from: "Charlie"
Original muzzleloaders of all types have become so valuable at least around where I am that the owners keep them close to home if not locked up.Its bad that the owners feel that way,personally I believe they should be used.A couple of owners I am acquainted with regard their originals as investments like stocks and bonds,truly sad.

I agree with Charlie.......
Being a life time "gun-nut", I can speak with a little bit of knowledge on this subject.
It seems that just about anything I have seen that was actually original, or even thought to be original, has a price tag on it that practically forces the owner to go out and buy something else for his actual shooting....that is if he ever wants to get back the money he has in the gun.

I say that because of the many comments like, "I would like to own that particular "old" gun but Bob, or Joe, or Sam shoots it a lot, so there is probably little life left in it...for that money."

Not to long ago I looked at a fairly nice "back lock" that I would certainly like to have. I was told it had not been fired since some time in the late 1920's. When I asked why, I was told it was a "collector's piece", and you just don't shoot such guns.
When I asked what he wanted for it, he didn't hesitate in responding that $12,500 would probably get it!!!!

To me it's a mind set, a certain mentality, that leads many folks who own something like this to think it's worth a bloody fortunate.

Many "old" guns I have looked at are nothing but junk....old junk, that's worth nothing more than a "Wall Hanger", maybe, if you can ever get them presentable enough for that!

I'm not going to say that there aren't any good older guns out there for sale, because there are plenty of 'em. And, if you can get one at an affordable price I would definitely encourage you do so. But, if you are interested in doing this, and you're not sure exactly what your looking at, don't be afraid to get some help.
On the other hand, I would never encourage anyone to spend a bundle on a old gun, just for the sake of owning an old gun.
Of course, your mileage may vary, depending on where you live, and what you personally see as expensive.

Just my thoughts.

Uncle Russ...
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Post by: Gambia on July 07, 2008, 12:34:57 PM: Well I can see Russ and Charlie point concerning originals the good ones are few ,as Russ said those that he has seen and affordable are just old junk,well I would say there are two reasons.First is that they have had a harder life in the pioneer days than here in the UK on a country estate and next most were poor quality exports from Belgium and Europe.As for the better quality ones which are classed as collectors pieces most will have been sold on by dealers in the UK to the States in the last 40 to 50 years.
Here in the UK I would say that 50% plus muzzle loaders who shoot shotgun and rifle use an original but we do have more choice and a better grade of gun.
As most members of the TMA who have read my threads know that I have done a fair bit of restoration on originals ,I have had some in a poor state which to most would class as junk and only fit for spares , but with a lot of dedicated work and patience 90% can be brought back to life thus preserving our gun heritage.
A original in good condition can be shot within reason using a sensible load and not loose its value,I have seen fellow muzzle loaders using Manton flinters , Purdy,Boss, W.Richards percussion shotguns, and rifles by Whitworth, Metford , and Henry.all top class makers.
Feltwad
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A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
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Post by: Minnesota Mike on July 07, 2008, 03:15:56 PM: Can afford an orignial and as was said above - not sure I'd be comfortable shooting something that expense.

But I am learning to shoot trade gun at clays . . . well trying to anyways . . .

r/
MM
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Post by: Craig Tx on July 07, 2008, 09:01:38 PM: MM,

You'll get there. I put shot through my trade gun for the first time last month and got 5 out of 16. It's sure a challenge. :oops:

Craig
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Post by: Minnesota Mike on July 08, 2008, 10:21:54 AM: Quote from: "Craig Tx"
MM,

You'll get there. I put shot through my trade gun for the first time last month and got 5 out of 16. It's sure a challenge. :oops:

Craig

Thanks. Used to be pretty good with old HR single 12 ga which I still have - but the trade gun shore is a lot prettier . . .

r/
MM
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Post by: Captchee on July 08, 2008, 06:41:44 PM: myself , i like SXS and when i run across one be they old cartridge hammer guns or muzzleloaders i buy them .
good shoot able SXS can still be found for less then 300 . try buying a new reproduction for that .
however you have to be choosy with what you buy if you are you can find some very good shooters out there .

most all these i to fix and shoot . some i re sell , others i dont . i do have one that i have though long and hard about sending to felt wad to restore for me.
Fro what we have found this would make its 3rd trip across the pond .
I have shot it Buy frankly I don’t any more . She means more as an expatiation piece then if something happened to it .

Now rifle ??/ well that’s another story all together . I have ran across a few but most times those that own them think they have something VERY special and thus demand a very high cost .
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Post by: Gambia on July 09, 2008, 12:08:49 PM: When doing restoration of originals the most important factor is not to carry it to far this is the biggest fault there is nothing worse that handling an original with crisp checkering,buffed up furniture, and the woodwork with dents removed and re polished ,we must remember that these guns are 150 to 200 years old and should look their age and not something new just of the shelf ,so if in doubt leave it be .
I have enclosed images of a stand of originals that I have just restored and were in a poor condition very dirty and rusty ,some held together with electricians tape,but with patience they can be brought back to life

Feltwad.[albumimg:jxbmf2ek]3138[/albumimg:jxbmf2ek][albumimg:jxbmf2ek]3139[/albumimg:jxbmf2ek][albumimg:jxbmf2ek]3140[/albumimg:jxbmf2ek][albumimg:jxbmf2ek]3141[/albumimg:jxbmf2ek]
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A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
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Post by: Pichou on July 10, 2008, 05:17:04 PM: What is that one, second from the right with the back action locks? That is a pretty common gun around here. RichW and I both have these marked Manton probably T. & Sons. Wrapped barrels, and the same nickel inlays even the spot on the toe.

Why is theat toe spot there? Any idea of the age?

Thanks.
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Post by: Gambia on July 11, 2008, 02:30:09 AM: Pichou.
The gun with the back action locks is by Keep & Son ,this name is not listed so most likely it would be a provincial retailer or a ironmonger,it dates from around the 1850,s ,the back action lock became popular in the 1840s and was use on the Pin Fire and Centre Fire breech loaders. For the nickel spot you refer too we call them ovals they were for the owner of the gun to have his monogram engraved on.
Your gun Manton & Sons if it has the London proof marks of 4 South St ,Grovener Sq,1854.
If the gun does not have London or Birmingham proof marks then it could be Belgium because it was then common practice for them to put English gun makers names on them when exporting to the States, another common name was Moore & Son
Feltwad
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A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
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Post by: RichW on July 11, 2008, 02:37:08 PM: Both guns have Birmingham view and proof marks. My barrel rib is marked LONDON, and has the letters W or M and HB or HD on the under rib between the proofs on each barrel.

The locks are simply marked MANTON.

[albumimg:3phh5rt2]3143[/albumimg:3phh5rt2]

I'll probably be listing this one FS soon, along with the flask I got with it, which is marked AM FLASK & CAP Co.
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Post by: Gambia on July 11, 2008, 06:21:16 PM: Rich W

I would say your gun Manton & Sons was a export gun. you often find that London gunmakers bought barrels from the Birmingham barrel makers which were cheaper than those made in London.They would then build a gun and engrave LONDON on the rib, the letters on the underside rib would be the barrel maker and the Birmingham proof marks would be crossed scepters with the letters BPC and also the crossed scepters with the letter V, both would have a crown above the scepters.There should also be the bore size and the script letters BP with a crown above.
A gun like yours in its condition would sell in the UK for £120 sterling that would be $240
Feltwad
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A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
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Post by: Captchee on July 11, 2008, 06:56:43 PM: if anyone is looking for a couple original SXS , get ahold of me . i have a couple restorable barrel sets 'LONDON " not belgum . with matching locks .
i think i have one complete peice out there , missing Butt plate and TG . needs re stocked though as the original has been repaired many times
I also have a half dozen original lock sets to include back actions
a couple very large back actions
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Post by: RichW on July 11, 2008, 08:31:58 PM: Quote from: "Feltwad"
A gun like yours in its condition would sell in the UK for £120 sterling that would be $240

I think it would cost almost that much to ship it back to the UK.

Fortunately or unfortunately, they go for about twice that over here. But I think they got used much more here as well, and tend not to survive in good condition, as Captchee alludes to in his post. Over there, shooting was largely limited to the upper classes and those employed by them, whereas in the U.S., every farm boy had a shotgun.

I would guess that you see more rust and neglect related to storage when the gun was no longer useful, while here, they were used until they literally fell apart.
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Post by: Uncle Russ on July 11, 2008, 08:43:22 PM: In my mind, I like what RichW has had to say about this, as it reflects my own thoughts and feelings....although I have no 'proof', either way, it sure passes the common sense test with flying colors, IMO.

Uncle Russ...
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Post by: Gambia on July 12, 2008, 02:29:48 AM: Yes I agree with some of Rich W replies guns in the States had a harder life than those here in the UK,also here most in a poor condition have been stored away in lofts ,barns ,etc.
What I do not agree with entirely is that shooting was largely limited to the upper classes.Yes the gentry owned sporting guns by top London and Birmingham makers but there was more guns in the lower bracket owned by the working classes from laboures up.It was mostly these people plus military consignments and export that kept the Birmingham and London gun makers in business.The only time when the sporting gun production was halted was when a military order of rifles for some war was placed such as the civil war in the States.but that is moving away from the original thread.
Feltwad
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A Flint Lock will not secure a chicken house door
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Post by: RichW on July 12, 2008, 12:34:31 PM: Feltwad, you are no doubt correct. But I think a larger proportion of rural Americans had sporting guns, compared with the average farmers in the UK.