Post by: vthompson on May 23, 2010, 01:09:11 PM
Whenever I finish saving up some money, I am going to have Fletcher build me a bow and I plan on making my own arrows using flint arrowheads for my hunting tips.
Before my injury, I used to shoot and hunt with a compound bow and I bagged a deer every season. But, I always relied on the sights mounted on the bow for help.
My problem is that I have never shot a traditional bow and I was wondering how do you sight your target when using a traditional bow.
I was hoping that this is where some of you men could help me out before I get my bow from Fletcher. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.
Vernon
Post by: ridjrunr on May 23, 2010, 04:10:15 PM
1) Dont over bow yourself with too much poundage
2) Read G.Fred Asbells book " Instinctive Shooting "
3) Have fun
Post by: rickevans on May 23, 2010, 06:50:31 PM
Post by: MikeC on May 23, 2010, 07:25:18 PM
Quote from: "vthompson"
My problem is that I have never shot a traditional bow and I was wondering how do you sight your target when using a traditional bow.Wow...No disrespect but you have a looong way to go before you start hunting with a traditinal bow with modern broadheads let alone stone heads.
I was hoping that this is where some of you men could help me out before I get my bow from Fletcher. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.
Vernon
You need to find your style of shooting and pratice a whole lot before shooting game. You need to find out first are you a gap shooter, instinctive shooter, something in between. Are you a snap shooter or do you shoot best if you hold for a second or two. Comfort zone, at what range can you consistantly put three arrows into a 6" circle. Going after game with traditinal gear is not something to take lightly , or because you want to "do it the hard way".
I suggest you pratice for a year or two and find yourself before you go out and possibly wound game regularly.
Post by: greyhunter on May 23, 2010, 08:35:37 PM
Post by: Pitchy on May 24, 2010, 01:58:17 PM
Quote from: "MikeC"
Quote from: "vthompson"My problem is that I have never shot a traditional bow and I was wondering how do you sight your target when using a traditional bow.Wow...No disrespect but you have a looong way to go before you start hunting with a traditional bow with modern broadheads let alone stone heads.
I was hoping that this is where some of you men could help me out before I get my bow from Fletcher. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.
Vernon
You need to find your style of shooting and practice a whole lot before shooting game. You need to find out first are you a gap shooter, instinctive shooter, something in between. Are you a snap shooter or do you shoot best if you hold for a second or two. Comfort zone, at what range can you consistantly put three arrows into a 6" circle. Going after game with traditinal gear is not something to take lightly , or because you want to "do it the hard way".
I suggest you pratice for a year or two and find yourself before you go out and possibly wound game regularly.
I agree, i`ve been hunting with a compound bow for quite a while and took a few deer with it but still haven`t hunted with my long bow.
Most the stories are about the game someone got but you seldom hear about the missed or wounded ones.
As for a tip, don`t push yourself to hard when shooting a long bow or recurve. Shoot a few arrows then give it a rest, you`ll find that your first shot is the best and it will get worse from there. The key is to do the same thing over and over and after to much practice your stance and form will fall apart and aggravation will set in.
One of these years i`m going to hunt deer with my long bow but it will be under 20 yards and when my heart says i`m ready.
Good luck on a neat gratifying sport.
Post by: Fletcher on May 24, 2010, 09:24:33 PM
Aim small miss small.
I practice instinctive shots at a 9" paper plate - focusing on the center.
When I can keep all 6 shots in the paper at a given distance, that is a distance I feel ready to hunt.
I try to get groups that I can hold the circle of my thumb and middle finger around - but that is tough with a self bow.
I can do it with my Olympic Target bow - but that is a different shooting style, and I would not/could not take that hunting!
Post by: huntinguy on May 25, 2010, 03:37:07 AM
Howard Hill said pretty much the same thing, when you shoot at a deer you miss, when you shoot at a hair on a deer you hit. This accomplishes two things. First you are close. Second you are concentrating.
I have been shooting traditional (not self bows) for several years (small game).
I know that consistent practice and self analyzing is the only way you can learn to shoot for form. You must (or I feel one must) take up stump shooting to become good enough to hunt with traditional equipment. Stump shooting provides no distance markers, It provides no "dot" to shoot at, It provides for creative shooting. Think of it as shooting off the bench or shooting from standing position. One tells you what the gun and the load will do, the other tells what you can do.
I disagree with ridjrunr on one point and that is about G.Fred Asbells book " Instinctive Shooting ". Don't read it... Memorize it!
When I have tried to teach people to instinctive shoot the hardest part is getting them to understand the "aiming" is done before the bow is even raised to draw.
Laugh, shoot, giggle then analyze. The laugh again.
Post by: Fletcher on May 25, 2010, 10:32:17 AM
Yay for stump shooting - and I agree you just don't shoot for the stump, you pick a spot on the stump. Focus, draw and release in one smooth motion. That is what makes that instinctive.
Reminds me of a few years ago in Washington when I was invited to shoot with the Evergreen Archery club who had provided the targets for the archery course at Rain Dee Vous
They had a course of 40 targets spaces from 30 to 80 yards. Scoring was 5 points for inner vital and 3 points for outer vital. Body = 0 The group was entirely made up of super sighted compound shooters with fancy releases - except yours truly who showed up with a stick bow!
I walked the course and turned in a goose egg.
The Prez looked at my score card and said " I heard that you won the Rain Dee Vous archery course and I thought you were a pretty good shot!"
I said - "Let's walk the trail again at least 10 targets. I will go first, but shoot from my spot. Also, each shooter has 5 seconds to draw aim and release" They said fine, and 4 shooters went with me.
I picked no spot longer than 25 yrads, with shorter at smaller targets (maybe 10 yards) I kicked their butts! Some could hardly get a shot off in time let alone acquire the bull - since their sight settings were farther out and they were not sure of the distances.
I told them they had just had a lesson in instinctive shooting. Then back at the range house I borrowed the Prez bow and within a few rounds was plunking them in at 50yds or so with sights and release. I told him afterward I was sort of like Quigley Down Under, "I did not say that I could NOT shoot the ...., I just prefer not too!"
Post by: vthompson on May 27, 2010, 03:51:07 PM
I am not taking any of the advise lightly and I will probably re-read them all again before I start shooting. I want to thank everyone that responded and I wanted to let you know that your advise didn't fall on deaf ears. Thank's again for your time,
vthompson
Post by: mark davidson on August 23, 2010, 02:11:16 PM
Post by: Longhunter on August 23, 2010, 11:30:59 PM
Vernon, PM me your mailing address and I'll send you a copy of "Masters Of The Bare Bow I" which I was privileged to be a part of. I'm sure you'll be able to get some good advice from it and as a TMA member it's yours at no cost.
Post by: mark davidson on August 24, 2010, 09:21:54 AM
Post by: Longhunter on August 24, 2010, 12:05:02 PM
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My opinion is that no modern archer has ever screwed up more beginning archers than Asbell. He will have you hunched over ruining your rotator cuff and trying to ignore the arrow sticking out right in front of your face.
Asbells shooting style may not be for you but his book has tons of good information other that just shooting style.
Fred is a good friend of mine, he has hunted in my bow hunting camp many times, and I'll tell you that he has more archery knowledge in his little finger than many so called experts in the traditional archery field today. He is not arrogant, nor does he criticize other shooting styles. His style is not unlike Fred Bear or Howard Hill who people revere but he gets criticized for teaching a shooting style that works for him. Just because it isn't the best for you or someone else doesn't give you the right to tell others to avoid his books and videos.
Fred is the Hunting Editor for Traditional Bowhunter Magazine, He was the President of the Pope And Young for many years, he has been the President of Compton Traditional Bowhunters since it's inception,..a position he was encouraged to take by Glenn St. Charles the Founder of Compton.
Fred has contributed more to todays Traditional Archery than any one man that I know of. To denigrate him such as you did is uncalled for.
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So what is the "wrong direction"? Is it the direction that differs from your own?
The man wants to deer hunt with a self bow, and flint tipped arrows. He was discouraged to do so by some and even told to get a recurve and kill many deer with it before considering using a longbow to hunt with. THAT is steering him in a direction he obviously isn't interested in.
I've been shooting traditional archery gear since before it even WAS traditional, and hunting deer with such for 55 years. I stopped keeping score on how many deer I've taken with such equipment long ago.
I started my traditional archery business in 1980, 30 years ago. My every day contact during those 30 years with both new and old traditional minded people has given me an in site that I would not have acquired from just my own experiences.
If Vernon wants to hunt deer with a wood bow and flint arrows than by all means go for it...don't wait until you THINK you are ready. What IS ready?...when you can shoot a 3" group at 25yd's? I say know your limits,...if you can be consistent with ONE arrow, not a group of arrows. Hunting isn't about shooting groups it's about that first arrow...you very rarely get a second shot. Anyway if your distance is only 15yd's or maybe 10yd's then you're ready to hunt. Just limit your shots at game to the distance you know you can hit.
We never know how many hunting seasons we have left, the next one may be our last. Go for it NOW...we have today but we don't know if there will be a tomorrow.
Post by: mark davidson on August 24, 2010, 01:49:50 PM
Post by: greyhunter on August 24, 2010, 03:57:12 PM
These are the types of members/guests that make the TMA such a great forum. I'm sure Vernon can use the wealth of advice posted here. My compliments and regards, Greyhunter.
Post by: sse on August 24, 2010, 06:13:03 PM
I ordered a few accessories from 3Rivers Archery, went to Gander Mountain, where I was lucky enough to find a young kid who knew how to fit arrows to a bow. I picked up a bunch of aluminum shafted arrows and it was off to practice. I didn't have many options, but since I was traveling up north fairly often at the time, there was one place I would stop into and spend anywhere from 30 to 45 mins at a time, shooting those arrows.
I had no training at all and had not ordered Aspell's book, the thing is still on my "to get" list, doggonit. The proprietor of the range was usually the only one in the building, and every once in a while he would look up and admonish my technique, based upon his own limited traditional experience (His whole set up was for compounds). When hunting season approached, I would see a compound guy there, with some of them practicing at distance with high accuracy, which only stirred my traditional spirits all the more. It was even more fun, when he would look over and see a good tight group of mine, fifteen yards distant. That was my limit, and became confident that I could make the right shot from there on in.
That fall, I had one opportunity that I won't forget. I was again on the road mixing work, travel and play. I happened upon a sunny, windy, cool day in mid-October. I got into my spot about 2:00 PM with my rig and all decked out in a ground blind I built up over the summer. After nearly two hours of enjoying the day, and with the substantial lunch I had making a me a little drowsy, I hung my bow on the tree and looked around to see where to lay my head back. Just then I heard some leaves rustling, and up came bounding toward me, just as I had dreamed, was a six pointer. He was huge in comparison to his rack, so by the next year he'd have a rack to match his considerable bulk. Anyway, he bounded right up to about seven yards, looked around like he was enjoying the day as much as me, then quartered just a tad away and put his head down, displaying the perfect entry to his right boiler room. Had no idea I was there.
I was stunned, and tried to retrieve the bow, knowing the slightest sound would alert him, and it sure enough did. He bounded away about 10 yards and then spent a minute or two looking me over, while I sat there thinking about the opportunity I just had and let slip away!
While after that, I got a hold of another semi-recurve at about 50#, and also a long bow, and returned the borrowed bow. I also got a hold of some cedar shaft arrows that a pal at my club built. For the last few years I haven't gotten in the practice, but I do intend to take it back up, practice with the new set up, find another good spot, and do some bow hunting closer to traditional, once again.
Moral of the story, with a little desire it is possible to start from scratch, learn, practice, and get the chance to take big game in traditional style.
Best of luck.
Post by: Longhunter on August 24, 2010, 10:03:07 PM
Post by: mark davidson on August 25, 2010, 12:48:28 PM
Post by: greyhunter on August 25, 2010, 04:48:23 PM
Post by: mark davidson on August 26, 2010, 10:01:21 AM
Post by: greyhunter on August 26, 2010, 11:34:52 AM
Mark, I would never shoot a deer at 50 yards with a stick bow or a compound. I was just fooling around and kept backin up from my deer target and I was able to hit in the boiler room. My point was the ability to shoot without ranging is the neat part of trad shooting. I "used" to shoot a 65 lb comound bow to 30 yds accurately, 2" groups. That said I never took a deer, or attempted to shoot one beyond 25 yds. I hunt thick hardwoods and the shots are up close and personal, being able to shoot beyond 20 yds accurately is to be admired, but for me not even considered. Now that I will be using a longbow,I def. will not attempt beyond 20 yds. The idea is to kill the deer not mark him for future reference. My only point in this post is to tell Vernon not to think he is in for a long technical internship, as in two or three years before he is allowed to think of shooting a deer. I appreciate yours and Longhunters educational dissertations, excellant advise, well taken. I'm not and instructor, or an olympic archer, I have taken deer with a bow and hope to continue to do so. I do not belittle any science or technical advice on trad archery.My hat is off to dedicated professionals of archery. I'm just a self taught ridgerunner and I'm sure if Vernon applies himself he will be capable in a few months. When the moment of truth comes he will either succeed or choke and miss. Much like all of us have with a bow or long gun.
Post by: mark davidson on August 26, 2010, 11:59:24 AM
Post by: Longhunter on August 26, 2010, 04:19:49 PM
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I've only killed two elk, both cows, but both shots were over 30 yards and that is how it had to be. I think in conclusion we in traditional archery limit ourselves way more than is necessary
I couldn't disagree more with your last sentence. Hunting with traditional weapons whether it be wood bow or flintlock gun, the challenge is not how far away we can kill an animal but rather how close we can get to make a clean kill. I don't think a traditional hunter CAN limit himself more than necessary, as for myself, I try to get close enough to see my reflection in their eyes.
In years passed I've taken shots that were longer that I should have taken. I've also wounded game that I didn't recover, some because of those long shots. Even if I can hit a target with some regularity at a certain long distance in practice, that doesn't mean I should risk wounding an animal at that range when hunting. Practicing in your yard or on the range is totally different than hunting in the field.
During practice you're calm and calculated, but when you're hunting and game is sighted you're breathing and heart rate is elevated to the point that your whole physical and mental being puts you in a different realm. You forget most of what you learned in practice and you might even be shaking a bit adding to the difficulty of making a good shot...
If someone discovers a way to stop this feeling that makes you so excited that you can hardly pull your bow or hold the sights of your flintlock steady then .....PLEASE,.. PLEASE ....DON'T tell me how to stop it...I LOVE that feeling.
Post by: mark davidson on August 27, 2010, 09:15:22 AM
I have had this same discussion on here about my flintlock rifle. I killed a deer last year from the ground with no cover at 8 yards one morning; I had to switch over and shoot left handed since she was on my right side. The following week I killed a nice little buck from the same brushpile at 93 yards. I see no shame in either shot. My flinter is a RIFLE, not a bow or a blowgun. It is capable at 100 yards and I have put in the time and effort to be capable with it! I just cannot see what is wrong with that.
Post by: Longhunter on August 27, 2010, 11:08:51 AM
I've made some good shots on game that a lot of people wouldn't even try. I once shot a running buck that had jumped from his bed in front of me. As he bounded over the high grass of the field the arrow from my 70# laminated longbow caught him right through the heart at 35yd's
Another time I missed a nice buck at 20yd's, shot right over his back. He ran out into the field and stopped broadside. I drew back my 85# Hill longbow not having any intention of shooting, but it felt right so I let go. The arrow took the buck right behind the shoulder, the distance was a paced off 60yd's
Another time Jerry Brumm from Great Northern bows and I were hunting caribou together in Quebec. We were in a boat with our Eskimo guide going up river to our hunting area. Two bull caribou swam across the river in front of us. I told our guide to cut the engine and wait until they reached the shore. I told Jerry when they hit the shore line, you take the one on the left and I'll take the one on the right.
I thought when the hit land that they'd shake off the water and give us a standing shot from the boat. The both took off like quarter horses, one to the left, one to the right. I was in the bow of the boat and drew my 80# longbow and swung a lead on the running caribou on the right. I gave no thought to distance or how far to lead him. My eyes were glued on the running animal as my computer brain calculated all of the elevation and lead for me. The arrow arched out and made contact in the animals side angling into the opposite shoulder. We watched the animal go down shortly after. The shot was about 45-50yd's
Jerry didn't shoot at his caribou, he said he just didn't feel comfortable with the shot....and that's fine. Although I made the shot, luck plays a factor in a shot like that. Sometimes it's good luck, sometimes it's bad luck.
I don't advocate long shots with a traditional bow because I don't want to encourage new bowhunters to try shots that are beyond their skill level. Like I said, I've made risky shots in the past but that doesn't mean I was doing the right thing.
Post by: mark davidson on August 27, 2010, 11:40:27 AM
Post by: Longhunter on August 27, 2010, 12:09:02 PM
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The mid range or "average" shots made are the ones that bore me. :-)
I guess I haven't got there yet, I still get excited with any and all shots that I get... :(
Post by: Fletcher on August 27, 2010, 12:12:00 PM
The second day I had several responses from my bugling attempts, but to my surprise a large cow came broadside at sbout 40 yards.
I was most interested in the meat, so I took the shot. It was slightly uphill, but otherwise open.
My hit on the cow was high in the paunch. I had overcompensated the uphill angle and there may have been a bit of 'string jump' by the cow. I tracked that cow most of the day, even after the blood trail ran out. One of the most dissapointing days in my life - never found her.
I swore to myself to never take a shot again that I was unsure of making. From that day I worked on my nerves and my skill at hunting. I have not lost an animal since, but I have passed up a lot of shots I am sure other archers would have taken.
I also grimmace at the numbers of reports each year of game animals found that had been wounded by archers - most by compound shooters as evidence by the plastic vanes on the arrows found - although some trad style shooter do use plastic.
The Montana DFW gives a booklet call Ethical Game Hunting at their hunters ed courses (both rifle and bow) I totally agree with that.
My conclusion is - don't be afraid to shoot a bow and practice by whatever style makes you successful. Don't refuse advice from other shooters that are successful, but prove what is good for you.
All the influences that can affect your hunt and shot like Ron said above can happen. I just ask you not to take a shot that you do not have a 90% confidence factor in with gun or bow, and by all means know your target and what is beyond it before you shoot.
Fletch
Post by: Longhunter on August 27, 2010, 12:34:48 PM
Post by: mark davidson on August 27, 2010, 01:30:26 PM
I too truly hate and despise to lose an animal. I also hate talking about it, and I think it serves no real purpose to discuss it on the blasted internet for all the nay-sayers to see and read. Suffice it to say this: I like any other dedicated bowhunter who hunts a lot and shoots at lots of deer, have lost some game. It is a regrettable and abhorrent part of bowhunting but is still an undeniable event that will at least possibly happen sooner or later. Honestly, between myself and my traditional hunting partners I have seen deer lost from poor 7 yard shots as well as poorly placed longer shots. I will be the first to admit that the longer the shot the greater the chance of a poor hit. Still, plenty of our fraternity make poor shots at well under the 20 yard mark every season.
Fletcher actually said the most honest and sensible thing I have seen on one of these forums in a while. He used the measurement of "90% confidence factor." I could not agree more with his statement. Anybody who thinks every shot with a stick and string is 100% is dillusional or has not shot at many real animals in the woods. Bad things happen even with the best of intentions. I may tell myself that I am 100% sure I can make this or that shot. The honest truth is that I am really more like 90% sure but I assume the 10% risk when I turn the arrow loose and 100% of the responsibility if I screw it up or if something happens. Such is the nature of what we do.
Ron, if you have truly not lost an animal since you were 20 years old, (I have no reason to doubt you), then once again my hat is off to you and I have once again found an example to strive for. I clearly cannot make such a claim. I will say that my problem shots have not been the result of too much distance! Beyond that I will not discuss it on the internet. If we had a good campfire and a stout cup of cowboy coffee we might exchange horror stories, but here is not the place.
Post by: Fletcher on August 27, 2010, 03:27:15 PM
Why don't ya consider joinin up and we might see about that cup around the camfire???
Hey Beav - iffen he do - do I get credit???
No action for new members here in Montana, but sure is a lot Traditional type talk around the Rondy campfires here this season.
I have succeeded in getting about 6 guys to hang up the training wheels and go trad archery hunting!
Post by: Longhunter on August 27, 2010, 03:31:39 PM
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Ron, if you have truly not lost an animal since you were 20 years old, (I have no reason to doubt you)
I didn't say that did I? :lol:
Post by: Fletcher on August 28, 2010, 11:17:21 AM
Lost him in the swamp.
Went to the City shortly after that and got a .338 Win Mag.
Since that day I have not lost a big game animal with gun or bow.
Post by: Longhunter on August 28, 2010, 11:58:10 AM
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I said that. It is true I have not lost a big game animal with a bow since then. I forgot my first Moose with a rifle in Alaska. I was under gunned and he jumped up and knocked me on my @$$ when I went up to him after the shot.
Didn't have enough gun....saw it, right off....
The first moose that I shot in Canada in 79, I had plenty a gun. Shot him in the rear end as he was runnin straight away. The ball went full length and stopped just under the hide in the brisket. That was with my .62 Jaeger made for me by Jud Brennan. I had it loaded with either 175 or 200gr's (memories gettin dim) of 2FF and a patched 610 RB
Post by: Fletcher on August 28, 2010, 08:50:04 PM
Post by: mark davidson on August 30, 2010, 10:00:11 AM
Now that Ron has recounted his moose story for all to see, :-) I cannot wait for the usual suspects on here to pipe in and accuse Ron of "magnumitis" like they normally do me. It is just that story and that mentorship that lead me to move up to .62 caliber and a good stout charge of 2F. I turned loose a PRB or two with 200 grains of 2F and found it to be a very encouraging experience. I backed off to 140 grains for white tail deer, but the confidence I get from having a .62 and knowing I can bump up to 200 grains is priceless. FWIW, Yeah, I know, I know....that is too much powder....I can't make a magnum out of a MLer....I shoot too far....I got magnumitis....blah blah blah.... :-) Thanks again to Ron for the story and for the encouragement. My magnum .62 slapped several deer to the ground last season from about 8 yards to just over a hundred and I could not possibly be happier with a rifle or more confident in my set up. Ron, You da man! :-)
Post by: sse on August 30, 2010, 10:12:59 AM
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Shot him in the rear end as he was runnin straight away.Texas heart shot...
Post by: mark davidson on August 30, 2010, 11:51:25 AM
Post by: Longhunter on August 30, 2010, 12:37:04 PM
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We have drifted quite some distance from Vernon's original quiestion about archery. As much as I like to talk about MLers, especially the bigger ones :-), we might should get back on topic for Vernon and for the archery forum.
I agree Mark, Vernon is probably saying, "My God, what have I started" :lol:
Post by: mark davidson on August 30, 2010, 02:01:49 PM
Post by: Longhunter on August 30, 2010, 02:18:54 PM
Post by: mark davidson on August 30, 2010, 02:49:14 PM