Post by: faithtreker on January 18, 2013, 11:10:41 PM
with ratter skins on. Price $1200.00. I shoot carbon arrows that are about $110 dozen. I just stuck $40.00 worth of brass inserts in them to weight the front end. Add a broadhead that averages about ten dollars each. What ever happened to the "stick and string"? [for the pleasure I get, it's worth every penny!]
Post by: Fletcher on January 19, 2013, 12:37:15 AM
Others would say the bow should not have any metal and the arrow should be wood with feathers.
I say that I will defend to the death your right to shoot whatever you want.
As for me, I have been there with all the most up to date modern stuff and now in my old age I
prefer my bow to be all wood and my arrows to be all wood including self nocked. I also prefer Muzzleloaders
to modern firearms.
Just remember Quigley when he blew the bad guy away with the Colt .45. He said in response....
"I told you I preferred not to use pistols - I never said that I did not know how to use one!"
Post by: bluelake on January 28, 2013, 06:15:43 AM
I've seen snobbishness on all sides. In order to join some activities or events, you must have certain equipment (sometimes it's practical, but other times it's just bias). I have seen it in the States and here in Korea. To give an example, the WTAF (World Traditional Archery Festival, held annually here in Korea) does not allow non-Koreans to use Korean bows; you are required to use a "traditional" bow from your own country. I stopped going to the WTAF after two years, even though I was in the original organizing committee, as I only shoot Korean trad bows. Some countries don't even have their own traditional archery (i.e. Australia). Also here in Korea, in order to shoot a bow in a competition, it must be from a company approved by the Korea Traditional Archery Association (and it's all political).
Personally, like Fletcher, I think people should shoot what they want to shoot.
Post by: prairie dog on January 28, 2013, 08:55:45 AM
I started in archery as a child with a bow I made myself with no instructions or guidance. You see, my parents would not buy a bow for me so I made my own tackle on the sly without their knowing.
I used osage orange or bois d' arc for the bow with my Dad's trot line for string. I made arrows from willow shoots, bird feathers, and points cut from tin cans. I actually killed a few rabbits and one mallard drake with that tackle before my folks realized I was doing it. They gave in and let me buy a glass re-curve bow and wood arrows.
After college, I got full into the compound modern archery stuff and hunted with that until rotator cuff problems brought that to a halt.
Recently, I got back into archery because of rendezvous competition. My present tackle is what I call "primitive". My bow is an English style longbow, osage orange with a bamboo back. I use a linen string with a tied on silk thread nocking point. Arrows are port oxford cedar with cut nocks and feather fletching. The only item that is not primitive or natural material are my field points. Using primitive stone or trade style points is just too hard on the targets we shoot.
I think of "primitive" archery as all natural materials. "Traditional" archery can include modern glass laminate recurve bows, Fred Bear style broad heads, dacron strings, or anything without wheels and sighting devices. There doesn't seam to be a hard and fast definition of traditional.
Post by: Cannonball on January 28, 2013, 11:38:51 AM
Post by: pathfinder on January 28, 2013, 12:41:40 PM
Quote from: bluelake
I've seen snobbishness on all sides.
quote]
Snobbery?Snobbery? there's no snobbery! But if your not shooting a Trade gun,your not REALLY a shooter!
I recall ALL those years ago,I was @ 6,when Fred Bear would come to our scout's meetings and teach us archery. Now THAT was Traditional! Sure he advocated the use of "glass" bow's now and then,but if I remember right, Wood arrow's were THE ONLY shafts to use! But,that was 53 years ago. And I STILL am in awe of him!
If you want to really go traditional, pick up "Mystic Warrior's of the Plains",by Thomas Mails. Big coffee table style book. I use that book tomake my traditionl archery stuff,along with Ben Hunt's book's.
$1200.00 bow? $110.00 a dozen fer arra's Wheew! I'm with Fletch,I'll fight like heck for you right to use whatever you want,but............LOL!!!
Post by: Spotted Bull on January 28, 2013, 02:17:54 PM
But thats all I like anyway...
Post by: pathfinder on January 28, 2013, 03:22:21 PM
Quote from: "Spotted Bull"
I love traditional archery...cuz I can't afford to shoot anything but the least expensive all-wood-no-training-wheel kinda bows.
But thats all I like anyway...
I make arrow's from dowels I get from Menard's,self nock,feathers from what I find on the ground,ect.... I was told you cant use feathers like that,you HAVE to have them right wing,left wing,ect.... they seem to work fine,i usually finish pretty good in informal shooting like we do at rendezvous,even with stone tip's!
Post by: Uncle Russ on January 28, 2013, 07:31:08 PM
I like to "think" traditional, but I ain't, not really. And it kinda hurts to say that.
My dozen Traditional "arrers" came from our own Fletcher, many cold winters ago, and I better not hear of anybody ever shootin 'em! You gotta be kidding!
Not only are they too purdy, but they're are the only traditional arrers I own.
Some arrers were made fer shootin, some fer lookin.
But I have shot 'em, shot 'em a bunch in fact, even kilt me a big ol' ugly possum with one, and anything that will punch a hole through that thick barrier of ugliness has simply gotta be good.
Although my bow itself has been traditional for many years I've always shot Easton's, actually Carbons in the last few years.
They shoot well, at least as good as my traditional, and if I loose or damage one, it ain't the end of the world.
I went through that stage where my bow looked like it was a direct import from outer space, what with pulleys, cables, sights, over-draws, and trigger releases, it's no wonder I have a bad back.
But as others have said, there is something about that Longbow that pulls ya like a nail to a magnet, and the release from that attraction is very stubborn....indeed.
I've always looked at it as "Traditional is, as traditional is"....as long as the bow is truly traditional, you're half way there!
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Fletcher on January 29, 2013, 12:24:17 AM
it was 1969. I got his autograph and a patch. That really floated my boat. I was so
disappointed when the museum was moved from Grayling MI. I envy you living so close
to a 'legend'
I got to know Glen St. Charles and Susanne too at the Northwest Archery shop when I
lived near Seattle. It was a shame to see that museum go as well when Glenn sold off
the property. I think it all went to the Bear museum now in Florida.
As things change and fade away, it becomes harder to remember, let alone hold on to
the things we all cared for as 'traditional'. The same is happening in Muzzleloading.
It is so good to have an organization such as TMA to keep the fires alive.
PS - y'all get a chance to read 'Bows on the Little Delta' some time - be sure to do that
(by Glen St. Charles)
Post by: rickevans on January 29, 2013, 08:46:45 AM
Post by: sse on January 29, 2013, 02:38:10 PM
Quote
It is so good to have an organization such as TMA to keep the fires alive.[size=200]Yes...[/size]
Post by: sse on January 29, 2013, 02:43:22 PM
Quote from: "rickevans"
I met Fred once while in Grayling as a kid. Yes, he made an impression on me. I started shooting a red fiberglass bow in my basement when I was about 8 years old. I could never get used to a compound bow at all. I have a couple (well, a few...ok...ok...several) "traditional" bows and a couple primitives (self bows) and a bamboo backed osage. I shoot carbons out of my fancy Assenheimer Master Hunter. The rest all use Cedar or similar.My uncle used to tell a story of when he was with a group of hunters up north, few of them played football for the Lions, that included Fred Bear. I'm sure he was just indulging the celebs. Anyway, he spoke of one morning when a truck was driving around dropping off each hunter at a given stand, but before the last guy was dropped off, Fred Bear had already shot his deer! I never asked whether it was with a bow...
Post by: Cannonball on February 25, 2013, 01:39:31 PM
Quote from: "Fletcher"
Pathfinder, I got to meet Fred Bear at a Sportsman show in Missoula Montana, I think
it was 1969. I got his autograph and a patch. That really floated my boat. I was so
disappointed when the museum was moved from Grayling MI. I envy you living so close
to a 'legend'
I got to know Glen St. Charles and Susanne too at the Northwest Archery shop when I
lived near Seattle. It was a shame to see that museum go as well when Glenn sold off
the property. I think it all went to the Bear museum now in Florida.
As things change and fade away, it becomes harder to remember, let alone hold on to
the things we all cared for as 'traditional'. The same is happening in Muzzleloading.
It is so good to have an organization such as TMA to keep the fires alive.
PS - y'all get a chance to read 'Bows on the Little Delta' some time - be sure to do that
(by Glen St. Charles)
I got to meet Glen when the museum was still over in South Seattle. I loved that place and was truly sad to see it go.
ps why all the fuss over laminated bows vs primative flatbows? As far as I can find there is no documentation to indicate that any pre 1840's trapper carried a bow for either hunting or self defense so why raise a stink at rondy's? My Saxon longbow also known as an American longbow is considered traditional in most circles but not within this hobby???? Just curious.
Post by: prairie dog on February 25, 2013, 02:04:02 PM
Quote
ps why all the fuss over laminated bows vs primative flatbows? As far as I can find there is no documentation to indicate that any pre 1840's trapper carried a bow for either hunting or self defense so why raise a stink at rondy's? My Saxon longbow also known as an American longbow is considered traditional in most circles but not within this hobby???? Just curious.
It depends on whose rendezvous. I just wrote up the flier for next years Frozen Foot Rendezvous where I said:
Quote
Archery field or target points are allowed. Broad heads and metal trade points are not because these cutting types of heads damage our targets. Any style of primitive archery equipment that was in use prior to 1840 is acceptable.
My study of Native American archery turns up many types of laminated bows utilizing different materials from horn, antler, sinew, bamboo, among the Natives depending on where they were located and what materials were available to them.
The bow I shoot is more an English longbow. The Plains Indians bows are just too short for my style of shooting where I anchor to my jawbone. Those short bows were used from horse back and the Plains Indian did not draw to an anchor point like the Europeans did.
I too can find no documentation for archery being used by white trappers or at a rendezvous. Heck, even the Natives gave up bows and arrows as soon as they could get a gun.
I fail to see the point of archery competition at modern rendezvous. But one of my friends said "it takes the place of knife fighting and white women".
So I go along with the games that are played at modern rendezvous because I'm getting a little old to be knife fighting, ear chewing, and eye gouging.
Back to my rendezvous, we don't care if your bow is Native American, English longbow, Korean, Mongolian, or Japanese. As long as it is made of natural materials you can shoot with us.
Post by: Cannonball on February 25, 2013, 02:44:17 PM
Don't get me wrong... I know to check at events prior to attending. I guess my question is with all the other relaxed rules at a lot of rendezvous' why do most organizers seem to be strict with this issue. In other words I went to one where there were no issues with anything from F&I to 1840 personas (including campers and rv's) and no issues for any gun as long as it wasn't a inline but when it came to the archery range they said no modern laminated recurves or american longbows and no plastic nocks or field points. I'm like really??? So I was just curious that's all.
Post by: Uncle Russ on February 25, 2013, 02:57:36 PM
IMO, It only through those who share your frame of mind that such a get together can ever be truly termed successful.
And, that same frame of mind will attract others much faster, and in greater numbers, than the most stringent rules could ever dream of.
There are contests for those who insist that everyone should be living and playing by some really strong rules, and there are contests for those who simply want only to participate, and still be a part of the crowd.
As for myself, and many I personally know, we always choose the later crowd. And once we discover it is otherwise, we don't go back.
Keep up the good work!
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Cannonball on February 25, 2013, 04:02:16 PM
Post by: prairie dog on February 25, 2013, 07:18:07 PM
I am a little more relaxed these days. I have to be, at my age and level of decrepitude, I got no other way to be.
Post by: Fletcher on February 25, 2013, 07:22:52 PM
were in fact a part of the historical Rendezvous that would most likely
be found unacceptable at today's events. It adds some variety to the venues
like some other activities that have been added.
Original activities most likely now frowned upon:
Hand to hand fighting
Prostitution
Horse races ( with few rules!)
Over indulgence of alcohol ( well maybe that one still might sneak in
)Activities added to the modern events
Old Timer shoots
Squirrel gun Shoots
Jack & Jill relay races
'Coulter Run' or similar relay events
Primitive Archery
Cooking Competitions (not any historical evidence of this in the original - but of course they did EAT!)
Your can add more to either list as you see fit
The big thing for me is:
Draw more people with more events and have more fun!
The really PC/HC events actually have a much smaller attendance as far as I can tell.
Post by: Riley/MN on February 26, 2013, 10:56:25 AM
Quote from: "Fletcher"
Original activities most likely now frowned upon:
Hand to hand fighting
Prostitution
Horse races ( with few rules!)
Over indulgence of alcohol ( well maybe that one still might sneak in
What's the matter Fletch, don'tcha wanna have fun enymore...?
Post by: Fletcher on February 27, 2013, 05:15:19 PM
But since those original Rondy days it seems like year after year the gummint
continues to make more and more things unlawful - while approving more and
more things that should be unconscionable.
Also there is the legal liabilities.
In those days mountain men were afraid of being opposed by the Sioux
Now days folks are afraid of being sued by the opposition !!!
Post by: Uncle Russ on February 27, 2013, 07:16:21 PM
Uncle Russ...
Post by: RobD on March 20, 2013, 08:36:37 PM
don't matter if the stick part is one piece or more, or what it's made outta or what's its shape or cross section or whether the arrows rides a knuckle or rest or shelf. and as long as its string is held, drawn and released by the physically direct efforts of the archer (hands, or hand/teeth for physically challenged archers), it's "trad". neither does the arrow shaft or fletching material matter. however, for trad bowhunting, only a cut on contact broadhead is "trad" - mech heads are *not* trad. the bowstring is easiest to understand, and it only contacts either the limb tips (longbow) or limb tips and limb ends (recurve).
one can divvy up trad archery into more specific categories such as selfbows (primitive), natural material backed selfbows, and man made composites (glass, carbon, ceramic backing, facing and cored limbs ... wood, plastic and metal risers).
trad bows can be aimed "instinctively" (as in throwing a baseball or tossing a dart), or with "soft sights" (using the arrow point as an aiming reference) or with "hard sights" (a bowsight - marks on the upper limb face, or an aiming pin held by tape, or a $400 FITA olympic sight with bubble level and variable apertures).
most of all, trad archery is pure ancestral fun ... and can put meat on the table when necessary.
Post by: Carolina Joe on July 08, 2013, 09:56:19 PM
Post by: Fletcher on July 09, 2013, 12:33:46 AM
is a bit different. That would not be allowed at quite a few primitive events, but probably not a big
deal at Club level events. The string silencer also may not be allowed.
What events have you participated in? How about pics of your arrows?
Post by: Carolina Joe on July 10, 2013, 01:27:38 PM
Post by: Riley/MN on July 10, 2013, 02:24:26 PM
Quote from: "Carolina Joe"
I would love to find someone on the forum who could make me some primitive arrows.
I think you just did....
Post by: Carolina Joe on July 10, 2013, 03:06:58 PM
Post by: Uncle Russ on July 10, 2013, 03:23:10 PM
Quote from: "Carolina Joe"
Fletcher, I have not had the oppurtinity to make it to any events as of yet. I do talke the bow to the range and hunting as well. As for the arrows I shoot the new gold tip tradtional desgn with feathers. I would love to find someone on the forum who could make me some primitive arrows.
Joe, my friend, Fletcher The Arrow Maker, invented the arrow back in the day....the guys that came out with this new thing called a "wheel", they sought counsel with Fletcher when it came to truing up their new invention.
He can make you arrows that will come back to you, so you don't have to walk out and get 'em.
I think he's still working on the speed at which they do come back, but he'll likely work that out.
Well, truthfully, I've only had one such arrow to come back at me, and being the young, nimble, quick responsive fellow I am, I managed to get out of the way.
You're in luck if you need Traditional Bow "stuff"....Fletch is your go-to-guy.
Uncle Russ...
Post by: Riley/MN on July 10, 2013, 04:40:54 PM
Quote from: "RussB"
Quote from: "Carolina Joe"Fletcher, I have not had the oppurtinity to make it to any events as of yet. I do talke the bow to the range and hunting as well. As for the arrows I shoot the new gold tip tradtional desgn with feathers. I would love to find someone on the forum who could make me some primitive arrows.
Joe, my friend, Fletcher The Arrow Maker, invented the arrow back in the day....the guys that came out with this new thing called a "wheel", they sought counsel with Fletcher when it came to truing up their new invention.
He can make you arrows that will come back to you, so you don't have to walk out and get 'em. :hairy
Post by: Carolina Joe on July 10, 2013, 08:34:32 PM
Post by: Fletcher on July 11, 2013, 01:04:48 AM
for a TMA family member.
Carolina Joes PM answered - thanks for the good words Ol' friends.
Post by: Eric Krewson on July 12, 2013, 09:45:46 AM
I mentioned to several guys that I was really a bow maker, just started making guns. They begged me to come back with some of my bows the next day, such a hunger for primitive archery!
The next day I brought a bamboo backed osage bow and a copperhead backed osage for them to see. I was stopped about every 20 ft as I walked through the quarter mile long camp by someone wanting to buy my bows.
There is a permanent archery range across from the camp so I offered to give a shooting demonstration to one guy who really showed and interest in my bows. The word got out apparently and soon I looked like the pied piper as I trekked to the range, at least 20 people were following me to see my "demonstration".
Fortunately I was on that day and shot way beyond my ability, drilling bottle caps at 20 yds.
I offered bow making instruction(no takers, the usual "I couldn't ever do that" excuses), gave an osage stave to a really nice guy and walked away really surprised at the hunger(unfulfilled) for primitive archery equipment at these events.