Post by: 1Poet on June 04, 2014, 10:59:33 PM
Lloyd
Post by: greyhunter on June 05, 2014, 06:33:09 AM
Post by: the Black Spot on June 05, 2014, 07:51:31 AM
In my bag: inside upper pocket-small bag of rb, tin of greased patching, small wad of cleaning patches. Main compartment-cleaning jag, ball puller, patch worm, forged turn screw, vent pick, pan brush, small tin of 50/50 beeswax/olive oil, small rolls of linen strips, small bag of flints, and a reproduction of a late 1700's compass
Post by: 1Poet on June 05, 2014, 08:12:13 AM
What does an antler ram rod puller look like?
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 05, 2014, 11:42:55 AM
Guns weren't fired all that often. Powder and lead were valuable commodities and not to be wasted. For a Longhunter in the wilderness, firing a shot could reveal his presence and location to unfriendly ears. If a shot was fired the shooter needed to reload as soon as possible. I'm guessing the gun got a quick wiping, if that, before being reloaded.
My second point is based on known historical fact. Rifle barrels were "freshened". I've had rifles that I know for a fact had fired thousands of shots per year for several years and yet I never managed to wear the rifling out. But I have seen barrels that had rusted to a point that the only answer was to bore it out and re-cut the rifling. I think the old rifles were "freshened" thanks to rust, not shooting.
As for what I carry in my bag, the answer is "nothing I don't need". Here's two photos of what is ready to go with me. There's even less to carry since I started shooting a smoothbore. The same thin flannel patches work for wiping and to surround the ball. Patch knife on bag strap. Powder horn. A number of balls will vary depending on what I'll be doing. Vent pick. Priming. Powder measure made from antler to hold 75 gr FFg. Combination musket tool. Spare flints. Not shown is a small metal whiskey flask that contains a 7:1 mix of water/Ballistol for wiping the bore. For an overnight trip I'd add in a flint and steel fire starting kit.
Storm
Post by: greyhunter on June 05, 2014, 12:32:22 PM
As Turner Kirkland of DGW used to say, "there is no charge for this idea."
Post by: 1Poet on June 05, 2014, 12:34:57 PM
Post by: the Black Spot on June 05, 2014, 07:50:42 PM
Post by: mario on June 06, 2014, 08:04:29 PM
Quote from: "1Poet"
This may have been covered in some way in the past, but I couldn't find anything on the forum. Basically, I wonder how the early longrifle hunters and even the smoothbore homesteader, cleaned their flinters when not at home?
The same way they did when they WERE at home.
Using a tow worm (looks like a wire hangar bent into a tornado shape). Tow worms were available throughout the colonies from stores and from Indian traders.
The larger end was turned onto the end of the wood ramrod. The smaller end had a wad of tow (the leftover fibers from the linen-making process. Looks like really fine straw.) twisted into it.
Flush your barrel with warm water and run this wad of fiber up and down the barrel a few times. Flush again. Repeat as needed. May have to replace the wad of tow. It's easier with a smoothbore as you don't have all the grooves to hold fouling, but the whole process may take 15 minutes.
Soldiers and those others with metal ramrods had a worm that had a female threaded base to fit on the male threaded end on the ramrod.
Quote from: "1Poet"
Also, how much, and what do you carry in your possibles bag when you are going hunting for the day and maybe overnight?
Well, I don't have a possibles bag, but I do have a few shot pouches/shot bags.
In my main one, I have a small pouch of #6 shot, about 25 .600" balls, some tow for wadding and cleaning, a tow worm, small rag (like 3"x3") and a few flints. That's it for a day, night or week. Anything else I need is carried somewhere else.
Shot pouches of the 18th century were mighty small. The earlier known ones (none can be definitively dated to the 18th century, but there are some good candidates) are 7"x7" or so, single pocket. Not a whole lot of room there.
-------------------------------------------------------------
As for soldiers:
"It should be insisted on, that a soldier at all times keeps his arms in such a state of perfection, as never to be ashamed to shew [show] them- by having the inside of the lock well oiled, the outside of it (even to the smallest screw-pin) with the barrel, brasses and bayonet, not only clean and bright, but highly polished."
Capt. Bennett Cuthbertson- A System for the Compleat Interior Management and Economy of a Battallion of Infantry, 1776
"...taking [the barrel] out of the stock and putting the breech in water, leaving the touch-hole open; then with an iron ramrod and worm, with a piece of toe [tow] or rag, draw up and down the barrel till it becomes quite clean; when dry, rub it with another piece of rag, and the outside of the barrel with buff leather [to polish]."
Thomas Simes, A Military Medley, 1768
Soldiers in the British Army were issued "sweet oil" aka., olive oil and brick dust to polish the steel on their muskets.
------------------------------------------
While some guns were freshed out due to rust, I think most were simply worn down. Gun barrels were not made of the same steels they are today and were much softer, metallurgically speaking.
And to that some rifles that were bored out smooth simply because it was more practical at the time.
Rifles were quite expensive at the time. Up to 6 months wages in some cases. Something that expensive and that meant the difference between eating or not eating, killing an enemy or being killed, IMHO was taken care of. Used to death, maybe, but taken care of.
Mario
Post by: mario on June 06, 2014, 08:08:18 PM
And they loaded their rifles with a looser patch/ball combo than we do today. So if you need to pull a ball, it would be much easier. Unloading a smoothbore was/is REALLY easy because there was no patch. Use the worm to pull the wad(s) and just dump the ball & powder out.
Mario
Post by: RobD on June 11, 2014, 09:12:48 AM
after many years of going afield with a flintlock, one hopes to learn what to bring and what not. everything i need is in or about my possibles purse. lately i prefer my .45 rifle, using 3f for both the tube and pan and carried in me horn and attached is a drilled out cow horn tip for measuring the powder charge ... the outside of the bag has a sheath for the patch knife, leather holders for a ball starter and vent hole picks, and a pan brush ... inside the bag is a ball bag with a wad of patch cloth to keep the orbs in place, a flint wallet, cock "key", 6:1 water:ballistol dry lube patch strips, dry cleaning patches, moose milk in a flip top bottle, ball screw, extra cloth for patching and cleaning, hand sanitizer and band aids. i made the bag, patch knife, sheaths, knapped the flints, cast the balls, etc. half the fun is getting "involved" in yer kit.
(http://i.imgur.com/cJuJk68.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/qP3z8Cr.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/r0ctEv2.jpg)
Post by: prairie dog on June 11, 2014, 03:18:32 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/Sells/Rendezvous/IMG_0097.jpg)
Every thing I need to load the gun with ball or shot for a day of hunting or a smooth bore match at a rendezvous.
Pan primer, vent pick and brush, short starter, balls and patching, frizen stall, small leather bag containing cleaning jag, ball puller, & flint tool, turn screw, flint wallet with extra flints and leathers, sliver tobacco box to hold the lubed wads, over powder cards and over shot cards.
The patch knife, powder horn with brass measure, and shot snake with measure are worn on my person.
A possible bag is a separate bag. It carries items not related to loading the gun. (Lunch, dry socks, or anything else I might "possibly" need.) The correct name for possibles bag is "haversack".
Post by: mario on June 12, 2014, 12:59:33 AM
Quote from: "prairie dog"
The correct name for possibles bag is "haversack".
I beg to differ. A haversack was a bag of stout material (linen early on, then cotton in later years) used by soldiers to carry issued rations.
"Possibles bag" is SUPPOSED to be a mountain man term for a catch-all bag, but I have yet to see any documentation on the matter.
Mario
Post by: RobD on June 12, 2014, 05:41:02 AM
Quote from: "mario"
Quote from: "prairie dog"The correct name for possibles bag is "haversack".
I beg to differ. A haversack was a bag of stout material (linen early on, then cotton in later years) used by soldiers to carry issued rations.
"Possibles bag" is SUPPOSED to be a mountain man term for a catch-all bag, but I have yet to see any documentation on the matter.
Mario
+1
Post by: prairie dog on June 12, 2014, 08:44:06 PM
.
Post by: buffalo pony on June 12, 2014, 08:48:42 PM
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 12, 2014, 09:08:19 PM
Quote from: "buffalo pony"
The shortage of Black powder in my area has made me question if 3f cant be used for priming and a main charge? I will tell you don't even think of trying 2f pyrodex as a main charge-a Flintlock needs real black powder but is it possible to get away with a single powder for priming and charge?????
Yes, I've used FFFg as both. I've even used FFg. As far as a shortage of powder, you can buy it from Track of the Wolf. Of course, you have to buy 25 lbs but you can mix the grain size.
Storm
Post by: mario on June 12, 2014, 09:51:37 PM
Once you get past .69 cal. or so, 2F is a better choice.
Mario
Post by: 1Poet on June 13, 2014, 01:31:50 AM
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 13, 2014, 01:55:21 AM
Storm
Post by: 1Poet on June 13, 2014, 02:01:17 AM
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 13, 2014, 10:44:22 AM
Storm
Post by: buffalo pony on June 13, 2014, 02:03:26 PM
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 13, 2014, 02:10:04 PM
Quote from: "buffalo pony"
I am sorry I could not figure out the right place to shoot this question about powder use in flintlocks . But I did get a good answer and will be trying it. Frontier rifle care included the use of natural lubricants-vegetable-olive and animal grease. In fact if you want to defeat the nose of an Elk throwing out modern lubricants and solvents will do wonders for you and help you get in closer than before. While on this subject I have seen stocks that were whittled with a pocket knife and they look good. The truth is men were manly back in the day and self reliance was just part of everyday character. So was taking care of your equipment. It was a forethought not an afterthought. That's why I worship the long hunters and trappers that first saw this land unspoiled and why I want to if only for moments step into their experience. I will never carry a cell phone or call AAA. or hire a guide, have some one gut and dress my game or carry it out I want to be the guy that gets called. Become your own gunsmith and you'll never have to pay one. Once you taste freedom anything else taste like leavings.
Well said! And no need to be sorry. The exchange between 1Poet and I was just for fun. There's another forum where newcomers are often derided for their questions. This is not that forum. Charlie and the other moderators see to that. Always feel free to ask questions, just be prepared for different answers.
Storm
Post by: Archer on June 14, 2014, 04:04:20 PM
Another thing, I think that the floggings should commence right away and should continue until there is an improvement in morale or morals, whichever comes first!
Post by: mario on June 14, 2014, 06:38:03 PM
Quote from: "Archer"
I would also like to know how one dealt with weapon maintenance in the field at a time when your gun was by far your most expensive possession.
Answered above.
Quote from: "Archer"
Also at this time one was living with the fact that having an unloaded weapon for any length of time could contribute to a sudden violent death.
1. There weren't Indians skulking around everywhere, at every time of day, on every day of the year waiting to pounce on silly White men cleaning their fire sticks. There also aren't bloodthirsty grizzly bears behind every tree in Alaska, either.
2. Those who went out into hostile territory (Indian or otherwise), rarely did so alone.
Mario
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 14, 2014, 11:23:33 PM
Storm
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 14, 2014, 11:58:27 PM
Quote from: "mario"
Quote from: "Archer"I would also like to know how one dealt with weapon maintenance in the field at a time when your gun was by far your most expensive possession.
Answered above.Quote from: "Archer"Also at this time one was living with the fact that having an unloaded weapon for any length of time could contribute to a sudden violent death.
1. There weren't Indians skulking around everywhere, at every time of day, on every day of the year waiting to pounce on silly White men cleaning their fire sticks. There also aren't bloodthirsty grizzly bears behind every tree in Alaska, either.
2. Those who went out into hostile territory (Indian or otherwise), rarely did so alone.
Mario
Excellent insight. I'd like to add that a muzzleloading firearm was pretty much a one-shot deal. After that it was knife, tomahawk, war club, or the firearm itself was used as a club. A trained British soldier could sometimes get off three shots a minute and that was using paper cartridges where the powder and ball was in one package. Try doing that yourself. Now try getting off three aimed shots. British troops were discouraged from aiming because it slowed the rate of fire.
Dr. Walter Prescott Webb documented in his history of the Texas Rangers that, prior to the advent of the repeating firearms, the Rangers were not especially successful in fighting the Comanche and their Kiowa allies. As a matter of fact, they usually got their backsides kicked. The Indians would wait until the Rangers had discharged their single-shot muzzleloaders and then charge. An Indian could put a dozen or more arrows into the air before a Ranger could reload and the knife/tomahawk/warclub never needed reloading.
Storm
Post by: RobD on June 15, 2014, 06:07:13 AM
muzzle loader rate of fire - using my longbow, i can empty my full quiver of arrows quite accurately at 20 to 40 yards shooting distance faster than a brit could fire and reload a brown bess (and not so accurately, too). the firestick of the 14th to 17th centuries was more of a fearful devil's contraption than effective rate of fire weapon. however, it was at long distances that it's usage really shined. this rate of fire got a bit better with the advent of metallic cartridge black powder (the sharps and springfield rifles of general custer, et al). but it was the rapid fire of the lever rifles and revolvers that won the west and put the bow and arrow to rest as a war weapon.
Post by: 1Poet on June 15, 2014, 09:48:11 AM
Post by: RobD on June 15, 2014, 10:16:36 AM
Quote from: "1Poet"
Seasoning is what makes cast iron cookware so prized for cooking. What is the best way to season a barrel on a flinter? And, can a barrel that has been cleaned by water, etc., be seasoned somehow?
for me, the answer to both yer questions was to first clean out the pedersoli barrel rust with pblaster - this took over 3 laborious weeks of multi cleaning per day using a bronze brush and patched jag, what a PITA! but i got down to relatively clean, unrusted steel. from that point on i cleaned the barrel with dutch's moose milk formula (DMM) for cleaning out the barrel after shooting black powder = after each shot and after a shooting session ...
DMM
****
1 part Ballistol
1 part Lestoil or Pinesol
2 parts hydrogen peroxide
20 parts water
1. Between Every Shot - lightly saturate a patch with DMM, it should not be wet, just damp, and run it down and up the barrel only ONCE. Clean the pan and touch hole. Reload.
2. After Every Shooting Session - run wet DMM patches down the barrel until they come relatively "clean", run down a few dry patches, last patch should be saturated with WD-40, and leave that patch/ramrod down the barrel. Remove the lock and clean with DMM, dry off the lock, re-install.
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 15, 2014, 10:22:09 AM
Storm
Post by: Dewey on June 15, 2014, 04:05:47 PM
They might, however, hide in small pockets on the surface.
And of course if there is already some rust, they might bind there (rust being an ionic compound).
I have used boiling water successfully when I clean my muzzleloaders - I get the barrel hot enough that I have to hold it with a towel - the extra heat really helps with the water removal.
Post by: mario on June 16, 2014, 08:23:00 PM
Quote from: "Stormrider51"
A trained British soldier could sometimes get off three shots a minute and that was using paper cartridges where the powder and ball was in one package. Try doing that yourself. Now try getting off three aimed shots.
A few years ago, I could. BUT, it takes A LOT of practice AND you must stay in practice.
Quote from: "Stormrider51"
British troops were discouraged from aiming because it slowed the rate of fire.
Actually another one of our myths about the Revolution. Much like the Brits fought in a line and we won because we his behind trees.
"have at the breech a small sight channel made, for the advantage and convenience of taking better aim."
-Major General the Earl of Cavan
"...proper marksmen to instruct them in taking aim, and the position in which they ought to stand when firing."
-Lt. General Gage, order concerning new recruits and drafts received 3 days prior to Bunker Hill.
"The regiments are frequently practiced at firing with ball at marks....and premiums are sometimes given for the best shots, by which means some of out men have become excellent marksmen."
-Lt. Fredrick Mackenzie, 23rd Regiment of Foot. Boston, Jan. 1775
"PRESENT!...and raise up the Butt so high upon the right Shoulder, that you may not be obliged to stoop too much with the Head, the right Cheek to be close to the Butt, and the Left Eye shut, and look along the Barrel with the right eye from the Breech Pin [plug] to the Muzzel;"
-The Manual Exercise As Ordered by His Majesty, In 1764.
Mario
Post by: Stormrider51 on June 16, 2014, 09:17:33 PM
Storm
Post by: mario on June 16, 2014, 09:47:14 PM
Quote from: "Stormrider51"
Mario, I have deep respect for your historical knowledge but if the part about not aiming is a myth it is an extremely popular myth. I already knew that Continentals formed line abreast like British troops. But deliberate aimed fire as we know it today?
Storm
Not exactly as today ("Aim small, Miss small" actually came from gunsmith Frank House who was helping train Mel Gibson for "The Patriot"
), but a far cry from "just point it in that direction." Light infantry in the 1770s were actually directed to come up with the most accurate load for their firelocks and make their own cartridges.There are many 18th century "facts" that are popular and not actually true.
Not aiming.
Patriots hiding behind trees.
Patriots all had rifles and the Brits all had muskets.
Paul Revere riding down the road yelling "The British are coming."
The Brits lined up shoulder-to-shoulder.
The Brits never learned how to fight in anything other than linear formations.
And one could go on.
Mario
Post by: RobD on June 16, 2014, 09:58:08 PM
Quote from: "Dewey"
From a chemical point-of-view (btw, I am a chemist), water molecules can NOT enter into nor bind to the steel.
They might, however, hide in small pockets on the surface.
And of course if there is already some rust, they might bind there (rust being an ionic compound).
I have used boiling water successfully when I clean my muzzleloaders - I get the barrel hot enough that I have to hold it with a towel - the extra heat really helps with the water removal.
no matter what one believes, water and steel will never ever be a happy marriage. using water soluble oil just makes more sense and is actually far easier and faster to use than dealing with hot water, or any manner of basic water. to each their own, it's all good if it works best for you.
Post by: Dewey on June 16, 2014, 10:50:20 PM
Quote from: "rfd"
no matter what one believes, water and steel will never ever be a happy marriage.
Well, I agree with that ... you don't want to "soak" the barrel, just get the salts that will cause rust out with the water asap (well, a minute or two). The salts need the water for removal ("like dissolves like").
The advantages to hot water is that it will quickly dissolve the salts, it has far less dissolved oxygen (the main rust initiator) than warm or cold water (a concept my students have problems with), and the heat transmitted to the barrel helps evaporate the remaining water.
Afterwards, the barrel definitely needs additional drying and then protection from both oxygen and moisture, using the fat or oil you like the best.
I find the idea of "seasoning" the barrel intriguing, and it is not necessarily incompatible with using hot water if you are careful, IMHO.
But as rdf said, use whatever works for you !!!
Post by: RobD on June 17, 2014, 06:09:37 AM
after cleaning out with DMM, and a dry patch comes out reasonably clean, a WD40 wet patch goes down to the chamber and it and the rod stays there. when ready to reload/shoot, that oil can be mostly swabbed out with a few dry patches, or if not hunting i fire off about 30 grains to clean out the tube, do a quick in-out of moist-only DMM, load up.
yep, YMMV! 8)
Post by: sse on June 17, 2014, 10:29:42 PM
Seasoning of the bore...this can be another contentious concept. I don't think it has much application to the bore of a muzzleloader. I understand the seasoning of cast iron, applying it, increasing it, preserving it and also what it takes to damage or remove it. But, considering we are shooting, then going through a thorough cleaning process, I can say for sure that if there is any protective layer that exists in a well-used bore, it doesn't have characteristics in common with the example cited.
One may fancy conceiving that a seasoning exists in a bore after breaking in, but I don't know how one could know much about it, or whether the lack or existence of rust is in any way dependent of the condition of the "seasoning". If that is the case, then the whole issue is irrelevant.