Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Traditional Firearms => Caplock Long Guns => Topic started by: Uncle Russ on October 30, 2017, 03:19:12 AM
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The Wind River Sioux Indians could be a cantankerous bunch at times, and the trappers of the day, that happened on their land, lived in constant fear of loosing their hair.
A year or so back I read a story about Wind River.
It seems the Sioux Nation was a tribe that liked to decorate their firearms...although colors, beads, and certainl inlays were popular, it appears the majority was done mostly with small brass tacks.
Some decorations were very simple, yet done with much deliberation in order to convey something the Brave had accomplished in his life, some act he had performed to help others within the Tribe, or something he accomplished while on the field of battle that had brought honor to him or his tribe.
I have been looking at "Tacks" on a rifle for well over fifty years...some I've seen were done in good taste. Others looked just plain "tacky", pardon the pun, but during all this time I never really came across anything I liked so I just never did it.
This past year I got serious about this "Tack" thing. I had made up my mind, I was going to do it.
I drew up, on paper, dozens of designs, all kinds of South West Motive, but heck this rifle was supposed to represent something a thousand miles from the Southwest, consequently nothing ever jumped out at me, and said "do it"!
I asked here on the forum, and I quickly discovered the memberships thoughts were much like my own....everyone seems to have seen some good, and a lot of bad.
So I said heck with it! I'm going to do this and whatever turns out will be what it is...
This is a very early model kit gun, roughly 45 years old, that was first assembled back, about 5 or 6 years ago.
In the early 1970's Thompson Center was just getting off the ground good, and I have to say the real Walnut stocks that came out of the factory in the kits, was some really nice wood.
There were several models around the Bicentennial in 1976 that had exceptional wood including the Beautiful Cougar, and the Match Grade Cleland Rifle in .40 Cal..
Anyway; here is my completed "Wind River Tacks Rifle".
The Wind River part is for the Sioux Nation, and Tacks is in honor of a member we once had who was bit on the cantankerous side himself....many of the old timers know the story well....
Here is the left side...when I first built the rifle I made a concave "shadow line" cheek piece. Hopefully you can see it in the picture as it too has some tacks.
(https://i.imgur.com/emoTwjT.jpg)
Her is the wrist and forearm from the lock forward;
(https://i.imgur.com/BMkx3y7.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/NoND6ws.jpg)
Here is the right side / patch box side....
(https://i.imgur.com/98T8dyx.jpg)
Here is the forearm forward....
(https://i.imgur.com/rGgizYl.jpg)
If you look close you can see the recent addition of a flash-cup, ie, proper flash cup that actually fits and works like it should.
Don't know if you can tell from the pictures, but that was a choice piece of wood I got with that kit, that stock looked really good before I put all those tacks in it...but now, it is what is.
So what's your thoughts on the more modern day "Tack" rifle.
Uncle Russ...
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Looks very neat and clean to me Russ. No clutter or mess...I say well done! :bl th up
Al
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I like that!The smaller tacks fit just right and don't just jump out at ya,They just blend in wthe the flowe of the nice lines of that pretty stock.That is some nice wood. :hairy
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That looks good to me Russ. It's very well done and sets the rifle off. It's pleasing to the eye! :bl th up
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I like it! Simple and tastefully done! Nice job Uncle Russ. :bl th up
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Nice job Uncle Russ :bl th up, it would be pretty tough for me to try that, I have thought of it and you described some pro's n con's well. I have always thought one would end up either ya or nay with no in between as far as how it looks when done. Imo, you done this rifle up right :toast
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I like it Russ. Very pleasant to look at and tactfully done.
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Russ, That is a very nice, tasteful bit of tack work. I like it, well done.
And the piece of wood is something you would never see today come out of Thompson Center, if indeed you would see a T/C Hawkin come out of there today.
I recall in 1996, Thompson Center had a very bad fire at their plant and their phenomenal inventory of walnut stock blanks went up in smoke. Plus tooling for several guns. Just awful. There was quite a write up in their local paper, and the photos were incredible. And their rifles were never the same afterwards. Just whatever average wood they could come up with. And then there was Smith and Wesson and then blah. What an incredible slide from really good rifles to ho-hum rifles to just the modern zip guns. Whoopie!!! De-evolution.
Anyway Russ, glad you got the "before the fire" wood. You did it proud with the tack job.
John
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Looks good! I have thought of tacks myself, actually have a bunch of upholstery tacks I picked up for various projects which would work. They look bigger than what yours are - where did you get them, if I may be so bold as to ask?
Muzzleloader magazine, in the last issue I believe, had an article by Mike Nesbitt where he talked about one of his rifles which he called Tacky since he had done the same to it.
~WH~
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Nice job, Russ! :bl th up (You have lots more patience than I do!)
Winter Hawk, Nesbitt often talks about Tacky I, So Tacky, and "Too Freakin Tacky." :P I'd be happy if he never mentioned them again and I'm sure I'm not alone!
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I agree that the very word "tacky" brings about bad memories from the early start up days of what could well be described as the Modern Muzzleloading craze...shortly before, and several years after the Bicentennial of 76...
Tacks on rifle stocks could be found everywhere you went, some were okay, once translated, but others were little more than just plain tacky, and without rhyme or reason....
Bigsmoke, I totally agree that we the public lost a lot in that big fire back in the mid 1990's.
The single biggest loss, IMHO, was serial numbers, to identify which manufacturer of barrels had "actually" made that barrel....in the very early days T/C permitted the barrel makers to put their "mark" on every barrel they made to T/C Specifications.
I understand that same practice ended sometime in the early 1980's with GM being the last of the truly distinguishable barrels made....GM supposedly used a "double mountain" mark which many have confused with the letter "M", myself included and I'm still not totally convinced otherwise.
I also understand that no less than six, possibly even seven barrel makers have made barrels for T/C over the years.
Back in the 70's and early 80's many "known" barrel makers of today were struggling to get started and would contract for any job they could get.
Information such as this.....years later, would prove to be invaluable in the sale and re-sale of these Muzzleloaders.
Used T/C's are said now to be at least as popular, if not more so today, than they were back in T/C's heyday....That could well be because of the cost factor, and has little to do with quality or durability. Only history will answer that.
They have always been played down as "entry level" Muzzleloaders, no matter how well they shot.
I strongly suspect that if I had been a builder back in those days, I would have pushed hard on that same thought and theory.
Who would have ever thought that K.W.Thompson Tools, and Warren Center, could have come up with something that would become as popular, and as lasting, as the lowly T/C Muzzleloader, all while both men were looking for full time work....with an idea based on pictures of past Plains Rifles, and a single surviving specimen of a true Hawken, they made history, or so the story goes.....
Uncle Russ...
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Looks good! I have thought of tacks myself, actually have a bunch of upholstery tacks I picked up for various projects which would work. They look bigger than what yours are - where did you get them, if I may be so bold as to ask?
Muzzleloader magazine, in the last issue I believe, had an article by Mike Nesbitt where he talked about one of his rifles which he called Tacky since he had done the same to it.
~WH~
Winter Hawk. although we call them "tacks' the proper name for the real small ones is Escutcheon Pins.
The ones I used were 3/4" x 14....then cut in half...all of 'em dipped in Gorilla Glue before tapped in the hole.
I got mine from a "North 40" store, a feed and tack store....
(Tack store as in leather...buying tacks from a tack store doesn't sound just right...) :Doh!
Anyway, they are the same brass tacks used on a powder horn, when tacks are used.
Uncle Russ...
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I'm almost tempted to do some tack work on my .54 TC that I built from a kit back in 2001 (I believe that's right)... My barrel is "button pulled rifling" according to TC when I called and talked to them about possibly getting the rifling deeper. Can't recall who I talked to, but he said it couldn't be done as it was "button rifling" so i let it go at that.
With this said, I worked up a great load with what I had (90gr 2fg & .535 .018 lubed patch) and put many a deer down with it.
If I could do as fine a job as Russ did and the tack work have some meaning behind it,,, I'd be very tempted.
Question Russ,,,,, "did you drill undersized pilot holes and glue the tack shanks in"? Also, where would one start with locating a meaningful designed that would be acceptable to the eye as representing a good hunting rifle,,, something along these lines? :shake
I just noticed part of my question was answered above in your post to WH.
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Mighty fine job!
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Thanks for all the nice comments on my tacky ol' rifle.
Personally, when I drilled the first few holes in that nice piece of wood, the thought went through my mind...
What in the world was you thinking, if this is a "flop" you've totally ruined it! :Doh!
So thanks, perhaps it's not all that bad after all.
Uncle Russ...
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I think it was tastefully done, Russ :bl th up - and that you were a brave person to attempt it. :bow
CONGRATS ! ! ! . :toast
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I was never one that liked the tack look but I have to hand it to you your rifle looks very nice, tastefully done I might add...Now you got me thinking?
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Now you got me thinking?
DANGER, DANGER DANGER!!! :laffing :laffing :laffing
~kEES~
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I'm not a "tack" person but have to admit the rifle does look quite nice.
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Since this was posted, somewhere around a month ago, I got to thinking....... :Doh!
I thought.... my oldest son in Gallup, NM, has a nice barrel that I left at his place about 6 or so years ago, when I went back home for a visit.
If he hasn't sold it, or traded it, (not knowing what kind of barrel it really is), I'll get it back.
BTW: He was "supposed" to send it on to me later after I left, since I was flying out of Albuquerque, but then he got to thinking that he was going to build something, and he would use that same barrel....which I thought was fine.
So I gave him a call around the 1st of this month.
And, just as I had kinda expected, he had never as much as even opened the box!!
He complained about life and one of them roundtoits being the reason...but ol' Dad knows the real truth.
So I told him to send it to me, since it's already mine, and I now have the perfect home for it.
About three weeks ago I got the barrel...still in the original box, still in Cellophane, and still in Cosmoline, and she's a beauty!
Green Mountain, six or seven years old, 15/16", .54cal., 1:70 twist, .012 grooves, 33" in length, very nice Williams front & Rear sights, although I do actually prefer the sights of the old T/C.....and, although she cleaned up nicely, she's still unfired....
:P
I've gotta work on that 'unfired' business, 'cause I just can't have that going on!
And that barrel, at 33" is only 5" longer than the original, but my-goodness!
It sure seems long to me, at least for being on a Hawken style rifle. But I thought the same thing about the GPR with a 32" barrel.
Anyway, here's how she looks on the ol' Wind River Tacks!
(https://i.imgur.com/O0OUVMq.jpg)
Uncle Russ...
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Yep...saw it right off...looks way to long for you Russ. Might as well send it on down here...the warmer weather might help shrink it up a tad. :bl th up
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Yep...saw it right off...looks way to long for you Russ. Might as well send it on down here...the warmer weather might help shrink it up a tad. :bl th up
I originally wrote .50 cal., but it's actually a .54 cal...I corrected that little matter in my other post.
Seeing it's a .54 and not a .50, I'm thinking that this just may be a little too much gun for ya brother Al.
Plus, if the sun should ever decide to shine here again....Well, ya just never know. ;)
Uncle Russ...
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Gotta say, I've always preferred the look and feel of the longer barrel, 32 to 36 inches, and the Wind River Tack job looks very well done (not that it didn't before 'cause it did, but it's nice to see the whole rifle. :bl th up
IMHO, those Green Mnt Brls are mighty fine barrels. The majority of the rifles I own have GMB's on them and I've got no complaints. My personal feeling is that the GMB Company gave the public a great choice of barrels that covered both, "good rifling depth and twist" for the patched ball calibers they offered (and still offer).
I like it Russ! :hairy
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I took the plunge years ago and put tacks on my Browning Mountain rifle. This gun have very plain, straight grained walnut stock that was very un-interesting. I decided to add some tacks to "spice"it up. I chose to use a pattern from astronomy. The right side of the stock has a pattern of the big dipper, with the North Star. Its' only eight tacks, but it personalizes this rifle for me. Sorry, no pictures.
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I think it looks good, Russ. Should I let "Tacks" know that there is a gun to honor his cantankerousness?
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I think it looks good, Russ. Should I let "Tacks" know that there is a gun to honor his cantankerousness?
By all means!
He dropped outta the clear blue and landed on my Facebook Page...a year or so back.... back when I first started this project.
Many folks had some problems with "Tacks", now and then, on the open forum. Still yet, if you played nice with him, he would play nice too.
I never had a single problem with Tacks...ever!
In fact, something few folks ever knew, Tacks DONATED $50 to help get the TMA started, back in the day.
He asked that I kept it to myself, which I did for a long time.
Now, I think it's something folks should have known all along.
Yeah, he was 'cantankerous' at times, but it was crystal clear, at least to these old eyes, that he was a very knowledgeable person and didn't get along well with all the "old wives tales" that once dominated the field of traditional Muzzleloading.
Uncle Russ...
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:toast :hairy :applaud
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Now you have a proper barrel on 'er! Those short things were just a passing fad anyway. And with the longer sight distance you should be twice as accurate as you were before, and that's the truth. Everyone knows that's why the longrifles were so much more accurate than the shortrifles (I just made that word up). I've become enamored with the Harpers Ferry 1803 rifle and it had a 33" barrel in .54 caliber, although in the second run they were 36". Lewis & Clark had 15 of 'em, although they were probably prototypes, from what I have read.
That is sure a gorgeous rifle now. Did I see correctly that you have an inlay with engraving in the toe plate? And the lock sideplate sure doesn't look like anything messrs. Thompson & Center provided, either!
You done good, mon Oncle! :hairy
~Kees~
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Ya got a good eye Kees....yes Sir, ya got plumb good eyes!
I made the side-plate...make that "grossly modified" an old 1854 Mississippi Rifle side-plate, which started out at about twice the size of what ya see...File & Dremel Tool vs brass, lots of brass, finished off on a hi-speed wheel using White Jeweler's Rouge.
And yes, there is a plate on the Toe-Plate..........Wind River Tacks
Here is a picture of the left side, Portside for my Navy friends"....lol
Ya think maybe Mr. Thompson and Mr. Center might approve?
I'm not so sure they would...they mistreated their sub-contractors like dirt.
Lots of bad stories floating around out there, from a few who really knew the 'whole' truth about what they made and what they contracted.
Anyway, the bbl that came on the gun is in 50cal. and is a "standard" T/C bbl., made prior to model or warning stamps, gun has a 4 digit ser. No....and is marked T/C. .50cal. ( very likely a 1972 model.)
Believe it or not, according to my Bathroom scales, both barrels are "just about" the very same weight.
One is 15/16 across the flats, 33" in length, in .54 caliber.
The other is 15/16 across the flats, 28" in length, in 50 caliber.
I need a more exact scale!
(https://i.imgur.com/C1WLZxq.jpg)
Uncle Russ...
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I know what you mean with weight. I bought a kitchen scale a while back so I could weigh my guns, on sale for $10. It seems to be pretty consistent, at least I get the same readings within an ounce whenever I weigh one several days apart.
The T-C Pennsylvania Hunter went from 7 lb. 9 oz. to 7 lb. 2 oz. after Mr. Hoyt did his magic on it. The Hodge-Podge rifle lost a full pound going from a 15/16" across the flats barrel to one which is 7/8" across the flats. Both in .45 caliber, 32" long. That iron ain't light!
~Kees~
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Ol' Wind River Tacks got a little present from Santa to go with her new barrel.
She got a Davis DST (Deer Slayer) trigger, and I polished the tumbler and sear, plus the back backing plate....she's slick as a whistle on lock time.
I think the old girl is about as ready as she is every going to be....still not sure how that new barrel is going to shoot, but I do have to admit to having pretty good expectations....all my other GM barrels over the years worked out just fine, with a little luck this one will too.
If I can ever find the Range again, under all that snow and ice, you can betcha I'm going to find out
what she'll do, and what she likes best....something good to look forward to in the New Year, don'tcha think?
I've handled it enough now, with the new 33" barrel, that I don't find it nowhere near as awkward as the first few times I shoulder it, she seems to balance well, and 'hold' seems good, plus those Williams sights are starting to grow on me a little bit....But I'm still not sure on that part. I got a soft spot for the older T/C Partridge type sight, but we'll see.
I "think" we may get along just fine, once we get to know each other a little better, suspect we'll just have to wait and see.
(https://i.imgur.com/HNXy35V.jpg)
Uncle Russ...
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something good to look forward to in the New Year, don'tcha think?
You bet it is Russ! :bl th up
I've always been a "Big" fan of those Green Mountain Barrels! :bl th up
Nice trigger setup too!!! :hairy
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Nice rifle, UR! :bl th up I'd like to see more pics, though.
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Russ, gotta tell ya,,, after reading your post on ol' "Tacks" I was a feeling a might guilty for ignoring ol' Candle Snuffer (in caplock mode right now) these past several months, so I got the old gal out and gave her a going over just so's she knows we're still friends... :) It's funny how we become so attached to certain rifles we own... Probably talk more to my rifle then I do my wife..... Oh brother!!! :Doh! :pray: :laffing
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Not sure its' a good idee putting that in writing Joe. Just sayin. ::)
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Not sure its' a good idee putting that in writing Joe. Just sayin. ::)
:lol sign :laffing :bow
Joe, fer just a wee bit of that old fashioned, Hush Money, PC Hush Money of course, Hank and I both will make sure Cindy never see this.
Now, about those poor scores I've been known to turn in................lol
Uncle Russ...
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I'm a gonna blame it on ol' Candle Snuffer if'n Cindy finds out... I can hear her now. "it doesn't surprise me..." :laffing :toast
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I put tacks on my Renegade not many just a few and thought it looked good after but was not sure before(whew)!
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Looks "right shinin'" to me, sir. I would be mighty proud to be seen carrying it...just an all around great job. Ya done "real good," Uncle Russ.
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I like tacks, if they compliment the lines of the rifle. Your's sure do.
:bl th up :bl th up