Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Shooting Traditional Firearms and Weapons => General Interest => Topic started by: Uncle Russ on January 20, 2018, 06:09:21 PM
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Over the years I have had several requests for a Manual / Instruction sheet for Lee Casting Pots / Smelters.
I got such a request last week and for the life of me I can't find those Instructions.
It is not unusual at all for anyone to stumble across a great deal on a nice Casting Pot at Garage Sales, or Flea-Markets, or a friend that decided due to the lack of time he no longer wishes to do this, but normally it comes as a bare pot....No box, no Instructions, no nothing except a good deal on a great little Casting Pot....of course there's better pots, pots with more accurate temperature controls, and fancy bases that accommodate anything you slide under them, but you do pay for all those little niceties, so much so that a beginner may have to pass.
For those in the situation where you want to cast as cheaply as possible, while adding a whole new dimension to your shooting game, you simply can not beat the lowly Lee Casting Pot.
And for those who recently got that "deal of a lifetime" at a local Yard Sale, but it lacked all the paper work, I think you may find the following very helpful.
https://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/EL3469.pdf
Uncle Russ...
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Russ,.... I have 2 of those LEE pots, 1 is a bottom pour and the other isn't, and they both work great. :hairy
Can't say as I still have the instructions for'em, so thanks. :hairy :shake
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I have one as well! :hairy
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Mine's a Lyman I bought around 1969. It doesn't plug in. ;D I fire up the little kerosene camp stove and set it on there. I've used the gas cook stove also, with doors and windows open. I've never tried it over a wood fire, should I guess, one of these days. In fact, I have a nice little "Pocket Stove" which folds open and you burn twigs, etc. in it to cook on. That may be just the ticket for melting lead. Hmmm, another experiment is on the horizon....
-Kees-
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I was going through my war chest yesterday afternoon, and I think I found deep down in the basement of it what I think is my old Lyman electric casting pot. Now, I really didn't have the interest to dig it out and look at it too closely, but if memory serves me right, it might be like I don't know, 15 pound capacity??? It does have a rheostat on it and I am sure it goes up over 800 degrees. It is not a bottom pour style, strictly ladle pour.
I would guess it has maybe 30 hours on it? I am thinking I got it in the late 90's, so it's about 20 years old, but has been sitting idle for the last 12 years. I got it about the time that I got interested in the big bore rifles, and needed something to cast .980 and .820 diameter balls with.
Anyone got an idea on what something like that would be worth?
Thanks,
John
PS As I recall this was a fairly expensive pot, near to $200 at the time. Lyman shows one at $53.95 and their 25 pound digital one at $359.95 bottom pour. I don't think mine is either one of those. Ideas?
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The link provided by our favorite Uncle doesn't seem to work any more. I am attaching two downloads from Lee for their lead pots.
~Kees~
Well, THAT didn't work. :Doh! The files were probably too big. Anyway, here is a link to the instructions on Lee's site. Scroll down to Bullet Casting and they are the last two items, EL3469 and EM 1142.
~Kees~
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Thanks Kees! :hairy
If anything, and I do mean anything Goodcould be said about the Corona-19 Virus, to me, it's the fact that this "stay at home, with everything being closed" policy, I can now honestly say that I not only got caught up on my casting, and paper patchin, but I could well be a star on the next TV program of Hoarders
I own and shoot a lot of different calibers when I can get to the range.
There has been times when I'm well into my second can of Goex when I walk away disguested, or with a big smile on my face, depending on circumstances.
There's other times, when a Zero vertification is the only thing required, and that's when I haul all that "stuff" I carried out there, back to the house and put it up.
Then there's times, like right now, that I couldn't go the range if I wanted to, since my wife is Wheel Chair bound, and has been since early August, and I can't leave her long enough for range time since I have to drive about 30/40 minutes to the range, but this too shall come to an end within the next 60 or so days.
Casting, to me, has added a whole new dimension to my shooting.
There is quite a bit more to it than just filling a Mould with Galena.
Once you get into it, I mean really into it, for everything you shoot, then you'll know what I'm talking about.
It has been know for years that I also shoot Center fire, which adds yet another dimension to this casting game.
But Casting, Black Powder, Muzzle-loaders, and Buckskinners, is where my heart has been for the past five decades, and I imagine it will remain there.
You never get old to learn, and I suspect I pick up a little bit here and there on almost a daily basis, especially when it comes to the sport of Muzzleloading.
casting may seem like the most simple thing on earth, but Kees just passed on some of the most important information ever with his PDF Files on Casting.
In small print, on both of those examples, you will find a few instructions on Casting that are very valuable to the beginners.
Richard Lee is a well know name, from Roto-Metals, to the LA Silhouette Shooters.
There is a whole world of "Brand Names" and Specialty Mould Builders out there, but when you're first getting started save your money for all the lead you will need, and go the big names once you're comfortable with the Lee brand, and/or Lee equipment for casting.
The biggest question ever asked, and it continues to be asked every day, is the question of cost....is the RCBS, the SACO, the Rappine, or the Lyman worth the extra cost???
That is a very subjective question that only one person can answer and that one person is you, and your own knowledge level of the basis Casting rules, along with your own expectations.
When you really get your heart into the wonderful world of Casting you may want to pay a visit to the LA Silhouette Shooters Club's own Glenn Fryxel's on Casting Bullets....... http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm
Just start reading at your present level and I guaranoote ya, you're going to pick up a few pointers.
BTW: You will see the name IHMSA(international Handgun Metallic Shooters Association.
FWIW, I was a Charter Member of IHMSA number 13, If I remember right, and that Organization was formed at the FT.Bliss Rod & Gun Club, El Paso, Texas, back in 1976 or 1977. I was the Manager of that Club for 6 or 7 years back then and have shot with some really big names in the Shooting world back then....One cast bullet shooter that I shot with, and loved like a brother, was the late Skeeter Skelton, another was the late Elgin Gates, a world know Hunter and Shooter.....all the big name shooters have shot cast bullets at one time in their life, and every one of them that I've met are good, down to earth people.....and they have all been willing to share their knowledge.
Respectfully, Uncle Russ...
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yep, that "lowly" lee 4# pot works just as well as any big buck furnace. it's only limitation would be for casting 300 grain or more projectiles, where the pot would empty purty quick like. i still believe the better value is in the lee 20# ladle pot and never any bottom pour pot. add to this a good ladle, and a good mould - which to me means a cheap lee aluminum mould for dropping balls, and a BACO Jim mould for dropping bullets for greasers and slicks. ;)
for muzzleloaders requiring balls, one pot is all that's required, filled up with nothing but the silver stream galena. it also does yeoman work for casting fishing sinkers, too, and i cast a variety of "sputnik" claw sinker weights for surf fishing. however, i also need a variety of BPCR alloy bullets, so i have 20# pots dedicated to 1:16, 1:20, and 1:30 for tin:lead, life is still good - so far! ;)
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Running balls with a Lyman 8# pot ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e65KE3i4RnE
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(V1.10.21.20)
To get into casting balls, it can be done very effectively on the cheap. The Lee 4# furnace pot, a Lee ball mould, some pure lead, a pair of heavy gloves, and do wear proper clothing that will cover up both torso and extremity skin. While most anything will do for a ladle, a proper ladle with a snout is best, acquired from Lyman, RCBS and others. There is no pressing need for thermometer to check lead temperature, but it can help to dial and remain in a good temperature range. For fluxing the lead, a bit of candle wax or sawdust works just fine. For keeping the mould handle closed pressure uniform, a #64 rubber can be used. A rubber mallet or big stick will be needed to whack open the mould sprue after casting, and maybe to whack the mould handles to release the balls. We never hit the mould itself, not good. A large spoon is needed to stir the lead and remove slag. A 100% cotton towel to drop the balls onto.
The working casting temperature range will be 700 to 800 degrees, so that there alone is a safety concern. Don't get burned, watch what yer doing, mind the ladle in the pot as the handle is easy to bump into and flip it and molten lead out. What's most important is not to introduce any liquids into the casting pot, which will have an immediate tendency to literally explode the lead in grenade fashion. Lead fumes are not human friendly, so all casting must be either done with a fan blowing or sucking fumes away from the caster, or just do it outdoors and it'll be fine.
With all that out of the way, running balls can begin. Whether the mould is new or used, it typically should get cleaned inside and out with alcohol or acetone or my fave, brake cleaner. Place the mould on the rim of the casting furnace and do the same for the ladle. Plug in the furnace, turn the temperature dial to full on, allow the lead to liquefy and the mould and ladle to get hot. When molten, remove the mould and ladle, add a pinch of sawdust or a pea sized bit of candle wax into the lead - it will smoke and flames will shoot up. Stir the lead and scoop off the slag and debris. What's left is a shiny silver lake of galena (lead). Put the ladle into the lead and the mould on the furnace rim. Give it a few minutes for the pot to come back to temperature. Hold the mould in one hand, turn the mould top about 45*, fill the ladle. If your ladle has a snout, push the snout into the mould sprue opening and turn both the mould and attached ladle upright, lift out the ladle and dump the entire load of lead onto the mould. If your ladle has no snout, pour the molten lead into the mould cavity as both are turned upright, and dump the entire ladle of lead on top of the mould. Do the same for the other ball cavity, Put the ladle back into the pot. Within 5 -15 seconds, whack open the mould sprue plate, save the sprue lead and any lead knocked off the mould for remelting and casting later (not now), open the mould, drop the balls onto a soft 100% cotton folded towel - if they're "stuck" in the mould, whack the handle 'til they drop out. Close up the mould and repeat the casting process.
Temperature indicators --- If the dropped balls are shiny but wrinkled - this means the either the lead or the mould aren't hot enuf. If the balls drop with a dulled silver "frosted" luster, this means the lead or the mould is too hot. Shiny, clean, uniform dropped balls are the goal. As the amount of lead lessens in the pot due to casting, typically the pot temperature will rise. All of this may mean the pot's temperature control might need to be tweaked during the casting session.
When casting is over, leave the mould filled! Allow it to cool completely, then wrap the mould tightly with Press 'n' Seal. This keeps the mould from oxidizing and it's ready for immediate casting without cleaning or oiling. I keep all cast balls in plastic baggies, with a squirt or two of WD40 to keep the balls shiny and not oxidized.
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thank you for all this info, ive been thinking about casting balls for awhile.
my father back in the 70'S used to make sinkers this way for fishing in the Detroit river. ( ya lose alot of sinkers in the river) as a young teen i found it fascinating, loved helping him.
wish all these years later i had saved his stuff.
when i got my 1st ML last year i bought 200 balls and patches thinking " that should last me a lifetime" WRONG.
besides i like to tinker and muttle around the shop anyways.
Man this stuff is fun
kevin
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Casting .490 balls for a .50 caliber using a cheap Lee 4# pot and cheap Lee ladle. Did I mention this is "cheap"? ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g6qU_PNZeY
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i still believe the better value is in the lee 20# ladle pot and never any bottom pour pot. add to this a good ladle, and a good mould - which to me means a cheap lee aluminum mould for dropping balls,
RobD, I have not tried running ball. Why do you dislike bottom pour pots? Also, what do you think of those moulds with multiple cavities for making several balls at once? Is it best to stick with a 2-ball mold, even if it's slower?
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i still believe the better value is in the lee 20# ladle pot and never any bottom pour pot. add to this a good ladle, and a good mould - which to me means a cheap lee aluminum mould for dropping balls,
RobD, I have not tried running ball. Why do you dislike bottom pour pots? Also, what do you think of those moulds with multiple cavities for making several balls at once? Is it best to stick with a 2-ball mold, even if it's slower?
My opinions ...
Bottom pour pots can and will eventually have issues with the pour valve. I'd bet that most pour pots eventually get plugged with a ball bearing and used as a ladle pot. Ladle use is simpler, easier, cheaper, foolproof, allows "compression casting", and you will find they are vastly preferred by the BPCR match shooting crowd.
In the above "casting on the cheap" video I'm using a lee ladle. It is far better to use a ladle such as by Lyman, RCBS, and others, that holds a lot more lead and has a "snout" that will allow compression casting (which will make for more uniform balls, bullets, and slicks). They ain't cheap, but will work much better.
I prefer the Lee 2 cavity moulds for running balls and see no need for a more expensive ganged mould - save that money for a good ladle instead (as well as saving money on a ladle pot instead of a bottom pour pot). A full ladle will allow quick pouring of both cavities. A dozen balls can easily be cast inside of 5 minutes. I see no need to go any faster.
Using a better Lyman ladle to run balls ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e65KE3i4RnE
r.
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Thank you, RobD! Your response was very informative.
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My pleasure, sir.
You may notice a few things in the above video that may seem unusual, so if you will allow, I'll talk some more of my casting process ...
I double wrap a #64 rubber band around the mould handle ends. This ensures that the mould halves are aligned and evenly compressed for all castings.
I put the ladle's snout into the mould sprue hole and let the weight of the lead force itself into the mould cavities. Even after both cavities are filled, I dump the remaining ladle lead over the sprue holes to keep the heat high at those areas to help release any trapped air.
When balls are stuck in the mould I rap the handle hinge to release and Never hit the mould itself.
I leave the last ball cast in the mould. As the still image at the end of the video shows, after the mould has fully cured it's wrapped well in Press'n'Seal food wrap. I do this to keep air out and off the mould. In doing so, there is no need to oil the mould for storage, or for cleaning off the oil to start another casting session. Just unwrap the mould, stick it on the pot rim along with the ladle, turn on the furnace, and let them both get hot as the lead melts.
Before casting, I put a pea sized piece of candle wax or beeswax or paraffin wax or a bit of sawdust into the lead - it will smoke a whole big bunch and may even produce a flame (which is why I use a big exhaust fan over the furnace, that pipes out through the shop window). I stir that with a tablespoon and scoop out the dross into a cut off top soda can, so all that's left in the pot is a mirror silver lake of molten lead.
I use a thermometer to monitor the pure lead heat and I typically keep it around 700-750F (for alloy bullets it'll be closer to 800F). I let a cast ball tell me if the temperature is good - it will be shiny and clean, with no lines, no frosting, no occlusions.
I start with the pot full and always add new lead after (not during!) the casting session, and I'll frequently stir the lead with that tablespoon and pull out the dross.
Hope some of this helps.
r.
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Rob,
When finished casting, do you leave the residual lead in the pot?
Thanks,
Rodd
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Rob,
When finished casting, do you leave the residual lead in the pot?
Thanks,
Rodd
Yes. And as mentioned, I make sure it's filled.
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I'm not Rob, but as a long time caster I would like to join in.
Back in the late 50's, early 60's, I used a Bottom Pour (which were very expensive back then) and I "used" to empty the pot after ever casting, I only empty the pot now when the melt gets low, so I can clean it.
As Rob stated, I've never met a bottom pour pot yet that didn't leak, From a little bit to a hard to manage leak!
Personally, I seldom empty the pot anymore unless I'm going to change hardness levels of my melt, which I seldom do anymore since I shoot mostly pure lead in both my C&B Revolvers and my Muzzleloaders.
My advice to every new caster is; First off, be safe!
Water is NOT your friend. Keep a safe distance from water, along with wet or damp items, even a drop of sweat from your brow, can cause a bit of excitement if it hits the molten lead.
Wear safe clothing, including gloves and eye protection.
And likely as important as anything, is reading. Read everything you can on casting, and never be afraid to ask questions, lots of questions!
Remember, the only dumb question ever, is the one that is not asked!
Respectfully, Russ...
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A suggestion, if you will, if you luck into some recovered plumbing, roof flashing or any other forms of lead, do NOT try to clean it in your casting pot! Darn near impossible to flux enough to get all the impurities out of the lead and most of the leftover dirt will remain in your pot stuck to the sides and bottom and will get back into your clean lead when you refill the pot to start casting.
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A suggestion, if you will, if you luck into some recovered plumbing, roof flashing or any other forms of lead, do NOT try to clean it in your casting pot!
:hairy Thank you for the heads-up! :yessir: I bought a bunch of lead pipe last summer and it is piled under the work bench right now. I think I'll see what the second hand stores have for a usable pot to melt it all down in.
~Kees~
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A suggestion, if you will, if you luck into some recovered plumbing, roof flashing or any other forms of lead, do NOT try to clean it in your casting pot! Darn near impossible to flux enough to get all the impurities out of the lead and most of the leftover dirt will remain in your pot stuck to the sides and bottom and will get back into your clean lead when you refill the pot to start casting.
Folks are long dead now, but Dad had a friend who grew up the Son of a plumber and they had a rather sizeable (???) caldron in their Shed they smelted lead pipe for the old Soil pipe horsehair and lead packed sealant...
That gent told of how they used an old axe to chop up the lead pipe and apparently one bit still had some moisture in it and when it was tossed in the pot... well it exploded and sent hot lead everywhere... He said it was he, his Dad and brother at that time in the shed smelting it and when it blew, none of them were hit with flying, molten lead but it "emptied the rather large pot"...
Just FYI
I had a Lee 10# that over time turned into a drip-o-matic...so I plugged the hole and got a dipper and use it for RBs only and lucked into an older style (made in USA) Green Bottom pour I use for my 45LC bullets (or did)... Since I'm not shooting much these days of any type, I may not need either one again... :( :Doh! :scared:
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Doc, that is the very reason I never add to the smelting pot. Takes longer to start each pot cold but by the time everything gets to the melting point, all moisture has evaporated.
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I read somewhere that a bird flew over and crapped in a guy's pot and it blew and another guy said he had a lot of cats around and he'd "Hose down" his pots to cool them and they NEVER blew...
The internet... helpful till it's not...