Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Craftsmanship => Gun Building and Repair => Topic started by: RobD on October 20, 2018, 09:26:45 AM
-
i've been intrigued with jim's kits for the last few years and was contemplating getting the southern mountain rifle kit, when i heard talk of him adding in the colonial rifle kit. and so, i've had a .54 kit on order that will sport an extra fancy maple stock and radius groove rifling. katherine sez it should be ready to ship once the brass castings arrive back from the foundry at the end of this month. so the build should start somewhere in november. looking forward to it and i'll add to this thread a pictorial of the process.
-
Rob,.... keep us updated on your Kibler Kit once you have it, I hear they're pretty darn nice. :hairy
-
Very interested in this project, Rob. :bl th up
-
Rob,.... keep us updated on your Kibler Kit once you have it, I hear they're pretty darn nice. :hairy
Yes, please do! Always enjoy following a new build! :hairy
-
+1 what Maven and rollingb said!
Kees
-
I've had an interest in the "Southern Mountain Rifles" for a while now.
It will be really interesting to see this build before I do jump. :bl th up
Russ...
-
ooooooooooo, a nice big WOOD box ....
[ Invalid Attachment ]
-
I'm looking forward to this! :hairy
-
Rob,.... thanks for the picture of the box,.....
now,.... open it,... open it,.... open it. :) :applaud :) :applaud :)
-
Darn nice box!!!
Is that a flaw in the wood on the left side of the stock just over where the trigger guard would end?
Not knowing about these things, how would that be repaired?
Else, WOW on the wood. The patterns in it just sizzles.
John
-
Rob,.... that's gonna be a purty rifle when you get'er together and "finished". :applaud :toast :)
-
Fun, fun, fun!!! :hairy
-
I have a special fondness for Southern Mountain Rifles, in fact, all iron mounted rifles.
My reading on the Jim Kibler Kits has all been very positive, favorable in every respect.
Looking forward to its finish, and seeing how she prints for you.
That is certainly a good looking piece of wood, betcha she turns out being one pretty girl! :bow
:hairy
Uncle Russ...
-
oh me oh my. stupid is as stupid does.
yes, clearly it's an SMR and not a colonial rifle.
what happens when two folks get to prove their humanity? as in "to err is human".
you get a comedy of errors, that's what.
the .54 REAL colonial rifle due to arrive in awhile.
-
the real deal arrived, thanx to katherine ...
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
-
Oooooh I like that :applaud,..... that's gonna be beautiful when you get it finished. :hairy :hairy
-
Yes indeed!!! :hairy :hairy
-
Man! I could have myself a ball with a piece of wood like that!!
Is that wood a "up-grade" or was that just the luck of the draw?
It's nice, darn nice!
Looking forward to the build
Russ...
-
... Is that wood a "up-grade" or was that just the luck of the draw? ...
that was an added $200 worth of flame in the grain. 8)
-
Looking forward to seeing it when it's finished!
-
Looks good. Like the otherss I can't wait to see it finished. :hairy
Just saw this post and I jjust finished watching Jim's youtube video series of him assembling a Colonil Rifle kit.
-
Well, is it done yet? 8)
Jim Kibler. Years ago when I used to hang out at ALR, Jim was a regular participant and thinking of making a few rifles to sell. He placed high standards on himself, and got real good before doing so, and I mean REAL good. His very first effort was so beautiful I was overtaken when seeing the pictures he posted, and saved the images to my computer.
He priced this rifle initially at $2,700.00. For a rifle being the first from a gun maker of this talent, soon to be famous in the community, and noteworthy in so many ways, I thought to myself, 'this is a steal'. Apparently, he felt the same, or perhaps at the urging of his mentors, three weeks later I saw the rifle for sale at CLA, for $3,500.00...still worth every penny, IMHO. Needless to say, it was not for sale very long. This occurred in Nov 2006.
(https://i.imgur.com/zsdAlM2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8OI7MaI.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/IGxgYHv.jpg)
-
ooooooooooo, a nice big WOOD box ....
[ Invalid Attachment ]
rondo sent the Swan to me similarly packaged, in a box so sturdy I think you could have driven over it with a Sherman tank, which I still have (the box, not the tank). The interior was a hunk of styrofoam, inlet to the shape of the rifle, wrapped in a thick plastic, and the rifle itself was soaked with something like Cosmoline. I think rondo was afraid it might fall off the wagon into the Missouri River. Took several trips to the range before that was wiped and worn away!
-
It kinda puts me in mind of the Edward Marshall rifle of the 1790's... Am I in the ball park?
-
It kinda puts me in mind of the Edward Marshall rifle of the 1790's... Am I in the ball park?
Joe, not sure if directed to my post, but if so, I don't know.
-
Well, both I guess. I watched a video by Mike Bellevue on the 1790's Edward Marshall Rifle in .58 caliber and there are several things about both you and Rod's rifle's that are so similar to that Edward Marshall style rifle, I was just wondering. In any event, both the rifle's displayed here in this post are very nice!!! :hairy
-
this is the part about 18th century long guns that i dislike - the "who made what when and were?" and "who's style is that gun?".
strictly from my perspective, a large amount of this is SO theoretical, based on so few physical examples and far too little 18th century written proof. while there clearly IS a kinda "style" that what few indications exist 300 or so years later for perhaps a certain gunmaker, guns were also SO unique in far too many ways. how many thousands, more than likely tens of thousands of long guns have we not seen, recorded, understood ... and how would they fit in with the few that did survive?
many of us have in our mind's eye what a mid 1700's long gun should look like, and while our thinking is probably reasonably correct, what did the TYPICAL civilian's gun really look like, it's materials, it's bore, and given a 1700's year range, was it rifled or smoothbore?
-
starting to mate the barrel to the stock.
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
-
Rob,.... do Jim's kits come with the barrel already drilled and tapped for a vent liner?
-
Rob,.... do Jim's kits come with the barrel already drilled and tapped for a vent liner?
yes, for a chambers white lightning that's supplied.
-
Rob,.... do Jim's kits come with the barrel already drilled and tapped for a vent liner?
yes, for a chambers white lightning that's supplied.
Wow,.... Jim has those kits down to a fine art, and the inletting looks impeccable. :hairy
-
Rob,.... do Jim's kits come with the barrel already drilled and tapped for a vent liner?
yes, for a chambers white lightning that's supplied.
Wow,.... Jim has those kits down to a fine art, and the inletting looks impeccable. :hairy
there will always be some amount of inletting required.
the Most Important thing for a flintlock will always be how the barrel fits into the stock, from the barrel channel to the tang and bolster/breech.
the absolute MOST important relationship in a KIT gun that's predrilled is how well the all the holes line up. that's almost impossible due to fluctuations in wood and CNC work, where if yer off a tad then things just don't line up.
when the barrel is homed to the stock and secured with the tang screw to the trigger plate, will the rear lock plate bolt fit/align with all FOUR holes - offside lock plate, left side stock, breech, right side stock? the actual lock plate has no holes and requires 8-32 drilling and this is a very good thing.
NOW, will the lock's pan allow the already secured barrel meet the touch hole properly? to me, that's the prime goal of securing the barrel and lock.
the first problem i'm up against is that with the barrel properly inletted, the tang bolt and trigger plate secured perfectly, the breech tang's rear lock plate bolt hole won't align with the stock holes. i wish that i was allowed to drill this hole, rather than having it predrilled.
[ Invalid Attachment ]
with the lock plate temporarily pushed in (there is inletting work required), the touch hole appears to be in the right spot ...
[ Invalid Attachment ]
-
I'd just progressively larger holes in the breech plug until you have the clearance for the lock bolt. That's still one fine looking kit.
-
I'd just progressively larger holes in the breech plug until you have the clearance for the lock bolt. That's still one fine looking kit.
i queried jim about this, just to get his input since he's the kit creator, and he said the same thing - just ream it out for lock plate bolt clearance. and that i'll do.
-
it all seems to have worked out ok. took off the barrel, chucked a small rat tail file in a drill and opened up the top of the breech plug's lock plate bolt, put the barrel back and inserted the file into the stock/breech plug to pin it, then screwed the tang bolt into the trigger plate, added the trigger plate stock screw. filed and fitted the butt plate, filed the proud brass of the butt plate to meet the stock wood's patch box opening. fitted the patch box cover to the stock - that was not an easy task. the butt plate proud stock wood and its brass gates all need sanding and filing, and the patch box cover's back end proud wood needs sanding down to meet the brass butt plate. lots more to do, LOTS.
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
-
That looks like a very fun project Rob that is coming along nicely! Next year I'm going to get my wood burner set up in my workshop (before winter) so I'm not a seasonal workshop anymore... I've got several projects lined out once it gets nice enough to get into my workshop. I've set on a new wood burning stove tucked away in my shop for 22/23 years and simply have never hooked it up. :Doh!
-
No sense rushing into things Joe. :Doh!
-
I've got a wood stove in my small shop, and it sure feels good with the weather we've been having. :hairy :toast
-
chambers colonial round plate (english type) lock disassembled, lock plate edges drafted and prussian blued, beginning the lock plate fit to its mortise. as you can see, the pan isn't yet touching the barrel, but it will eventually as inlet wood is removed.
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
-
it's been an interesting "kit" build so far. after taking the lock completely apart, i used the lock plate to work on setting it into the stock mortise. this had some issues that took quite some time to rectify. when the plate set in well, i reassembled all the lock parts except the frizzen and frizzen spring, as they might get in the way of drilling and tapping the lock plate mounting holes. i fitted the brass lock side plate into its mortise, fitted the lock and held the lock plate and side plate tight to the stock with a jorgesen clamp. i used a #17 bit to clear out the brass and stock, and to dimple the lock plate for its two mounting holes. i used a #29 drill bit to drill out the two mounting holes then an 8-32 tap to create the screw threads in the plate. so far, so good.
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
-
You do very nice work, Rob! :hairy I love that curly maple! that's gonna be a great rifle for sure! :hairy
-
thanx, joe - it wasn't as easy as expected for this build and i'm not outta the woods yet. i did a pre-check on the brass nose cap fit it's WAY off where the cap is grossly too small. but that's about the last step before putting on the sights and right now i need to install the trigger and trigger guard. i still plan on an aqua-fortis stain under tru-oil. baby steps .... :*:
-
trigger installed, trigger guard next.
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
-
Excellent workmanship, Rob! :hairy Very nice maple stock too.
-
the brass nose cap wouldn't fit, too small. rang up jim and he knew of that issue and said to pull off the barrel, turn it upside down, set the cap in the middle of the swamped barrel where it'll fit and then slide it to the muzzle in order to bend the sides open. worked perfectly. the cap is now epoxied in, will pin it tomorrow, then next up is the barrel under lugs and then the sights. i'm just gonna draw file the barrel and have it left in-the-white. will pull the breech plug in order to fit the chambers touch hole liner, and put them both back with nikal anti-seize grease. after that, stock finishing with at least two or maybe three heatings of aqua-fortis to stain (i want it Dark), then the mortises and barrel channel will get CYA sealed, then on to multiple coats of tru-oil. as the stock finishing work progresses with it's cure and dry times, i'll get into the brass filing and polishing. i figure it'll be ready sometime in march, maybe, and hopefully a range date in april if the weather is decent.
[ Invalid Attachment ]
-
the brass nose cap wouldn't fit, too small. rang up jim and he knew of that issue and said to pull off the barrel, turn it upside down, set the cap in the middle of the swamped barrel where it'll fit and then slide it to the muzzle in order to bend the sides open. worked perfectly. the cap is now epoxied in, will pin it tomorrow, then next up is the barrel under lugs and then the sights. i'm just gonna draw file the barrel and have it left in-the-white. will pull the breech plug in order to fit the chambers touch hole liner, and put them both back with nikal anti-seize grease. after that, stock finishing with at least two or maybe three heatings of aqua-fortis to stain (i want it Dark), then the mortises and barrel channel will get CYA sealed, then on to multiple coats of tru-oil. as the stock finishing work progresses with it's cure and dry times, i'll get into the brass filing and polishing. i figure it'll be ready sometime in march, maybe, and hopefully a range date in april if the weather is decent.
[ Invalid Attachment ]
Please be careful,... in my experience with Aqua Fortis,.... more than 1 application will practically turn your beautiful curly maple stock almost "BLACK" (if not right away, then it will over a period of just a few years). :o
I've found 1 liberal application of A-F ("blushed" with appropriate heat) to be enough to darken maple for my liking (and I too, like DARK stocks),.... Aqua Fortis treated maple continues to "darken" over time. :bl th up
I love finishing maple stocks with Aqua Fortis and Tru-Oil, and have done so many times. :hairy
-
i hear ya on the aqua-fortis issue, but this is jim's blend and it's a mild one to boot ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knSI5R5prxI
-
i hear ya on the aqua-fortis issue, but this is jim's blend and it's a mild one to boot ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knSI5R5prxI
I've never used Jim's blend,.... so I'm anxious to see the results you get with it. :hairy :hairy
-
brass nose cap is pinned to the stock.
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
-
breech plug pulled (i didn't see any trace of anti-seize grease!), chambers liner installed. looking inside the barrel, the liner doesn't protrude inside - if it did it would require filing. liner installed with nikal and fitted, plug installed also with nikal.
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
-
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
-
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
-
Very good Tutorial Rob, keep up the great work.
Are you going to save my scalp in the Mike Fink shoot with that gun?
I sure hope she's a shooter, and I almost betcha she is.
:hairy
Russ...
-
Thanks for sharing this. I am enjoying it.
-
the kibler is finished and in-the-white at last. what remains is staining and clear coating the wood, filing and polishing all the brass, cutting facet flats to the octagonal edges of the muzzle, adding brass ferrules to the ramrod.
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
-
Looks like she's gonna be a "dandy"! :hairy :applaud
-
Looks good Rob. That'll be a lot of fun shooting you got there. :hairy
-
just took it all apart and started the stock prep for an aqua fortis stain, then will seal with tru-oil.
i did some finish testing with 3 coats on some scrap maple.
[ Invalid Attachment ]
[ Invalid Attachment ]
-
I like the looks of that aqua fortis stain. I might even go that route on my build. :hairy
-
just took it all apart and started the stock prep for an aqua fortis stain, then will seal with tru-oil.
i did some finish testing with 3 coats on some scrap maple.
[ Invalid Attachment ]
I like it!!!! (http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hearts/heart-beat.gif) (http://www.sherv.net/) :hairy
-
I like the looks of that aqua fortis stain. I might even go that route on my build. :hairy
I'm in total agreement Joe.
In fact, I've been thinking about stripping down my old smoothie and redoing it and I believe I'm going to go with the Aqua Fortis since that stock is also Maple.
:hairy
-
2 wipes with separate heat gunning of the aqua fortis, 4 wipes of tru-oil. getting there slowly.
[ Invalid Attachment ] [ Invalid Attachment ] [ Invalid Attachment ]
-
Lordy, that's some beautiful lumber.
-
i will add that i think aqua fortis is THE way to go. the kibler's concoction isn't as nasty as some of the other stuff i've used, and it appears to require at least dual wipes and heatings if you want a darker coloring. also, i had to use a high heat setting in order to best blush out the color, with the nozzle moved fairly rapidly and within an inch or so of the wood in order to get the acid to best react and reddish-amber up. however, even with that much heat i had no edge burns, which was a surprise. very pleased with the kibler aqua fortis.
-
BEAUTIFUL! :hairy :hairy
-
pretty much done, ready for baptism .... at last!
(https://i.imgur.com/o8AR9db.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3bWwLhe.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/tDjwAqr.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/OJylbBB.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/GXjfcrk.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/FVWgtqp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/71PXdSB.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/aU9MDeK.jpg)
-
She REALLY, REALLY, looks NICE! :hairy :applaud
-
That is a very nice looking rifle, excellent!!! :hairy
Can hardy wait for the Range Report on 'er. Mighty nice rifle!!! :hairy
-
Holy smokes!!
-
That's a darn good looking rifle there sir :applaud
-
Extremely Impressive Rifle.
I am SO jealous of your skill.
:bl th up :bl th up :bl th up :bl th up :bl th up
-
honestly, there really was no great skill in building this kit.
there are kits and then there are KITS. the key ingredient is the stock, which can vary from literally an outlined plank to one that this fully CNC inletted and mortised. that's what trad muzzleloader kits are all primarily about - the condition of stock. almost no one is a "gunmaker" these dayze, where custom guns are built by "stockmakers" simply because the barrel and lock are both pre-made. the furniture can be scratch built or pre-made as well. this comes down to one's level of crafting skills - and tooling. the offshore "screwdriver" kits are, for the most part, just that - only a screwdriver is required to put the parts together along with very minor fitting.
TVM and Jim Kibler kits have CNC machined and inletted stocks that will always require fitting, but the real hard work is done, and that's always about making a proper trad muzzleloader long gun stock. it will really pay to question kit makers about the stocks they're offering, and then assess that against yer abilities and tool chest.
if one has a desire to "build their own", but is unsure of their abilities and the tools required, the absolute best starting point is with a lyman/investarms kit gun. yes, a "screwdriver" kit, but there will be some minor fitting here and there, along with the opportunity to rasp/sand wood and apply a stain/finish. plus, some serious dollars would be saved to boot.
then there is the question of metal finishing - or not. i always choose not and prefer to allow the steel, iron and brass to honestly patina/relic on their own, as mostly was done back in the 18th century. but, if desired, it's another opportunity to get in some crafting knowledge.
-
That's a good looking gun you got there, Rob. You did a good job on the finish.
-
Rob the Gunmaker!
That is one good looking longrifle, can't say I've ever seen anything more pleasing to the eye.
:hairy
-
Rob the Gunmaker!
That is one good looking longrifle, can't say I've ever seen anything more pleasing to the eye.
:hairy
x 2. Kinda takes ones breath away. Nice job, Rob.
-
that's a beauty!
-
Extremely Impressive Rifle.
I am SO jealous of your skill.
:bl th up :bl th up :bl th up :bl th up :bl th up
+1! :hairy
~Kees~
-
Pretty!
-
honestly, there really was no great skill in building this kit.
Spoken like a true craftsman, Rob. None of us buy it, of course, your skill is reflected in every aspect of that jewel of a rifle.
To put it in the mountain man vernacular , "yah dun good!"
-
range visit yesterday and the first firings of the kibler colonial. as expected, i had some sight alignment issues that required rear sight adjustments that were tested at 15 yards, then on to longer distances.
left face is offhand at 25 yards, right face is benched at 40 yards. distances set with a nikon range finder.
[ Invalid Attachment ]
on the left face, the two lower holes were with .010" patching, the other holes used .015". on the right face, the two left holes were .015" patching and the two right holes were .010" patching. the patch lube is heat saturated gato feo and the balls were .526" and cast with a jeff tanner brass mould. the .015" patching clearly grouped better. these are "loose ball loads" and i don't doubt the accuracy would increase two fold with a hammered in .020" pillow ticking wrapped .530" ball, but that ain't how i roll with a trad muzzleloader.
-
That's looking pretty good I'd say, for a rifle you're braking in and finding a load you like. :hairy
-
Missing images found and added! :*:
-
I agree with Joe,.... for a new barrel and load development, that's looking VERY promising. :bl th up :applaud
-
Got a few questions, if you have the gun handy:
1. Were the brass castings soft brass or the bronze alloy many of the suppliers have?
2. Distance from breech to rear sight (I'm looking at issues of eye relief here)?
3. What is the approximate balance point--how many inches forward of the trigger?
Thanks!
-
Got a few questions, if you have the gun handy:
1. Were the brass castings soft brass or the bronze alloy many of the suppliers have?
2. Distance from breech to rear sight (I'm looking at issues of eye relief here)?
3. What is the approximate balance point--how many inches forward of the trigger?
Thanks!
This was a Kibler kit, which is about as high quality a long gun as one can find these days and AFAIK he casts in solid brass.
I sold the gun about two years ago, don't have any spex on it. Call up Jim or Katherine for details. Here's what's off the Kibler site ...
-
Thanks for the reply, the brass was a question I've been wondering about.