Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Traditional Firearms => Caplock Long Guns => Topic started by: rollingb on November 15, 2018, 12:53:11 PM
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Bill Knight (Mad Monk) is talking about Pyrodex over on another forum.
I thought I'd bring some of the stuff he has to say over here,.... many of you shooting Pyrodex may find it very interesting. :bl th up
If you look at the patent for Pyrodex you see another chemical not found in the 777. That being dicyanamide (spelling?). This dicyanamide is an corrosion preventer for the powder before powder combustion. It keeps the charge from attacking and pit corroding the bore where the powder grains come in contact with the bore. Now during powder combustion that is broken down and it gives off pure cyanide or potassium cyanide.
I learned this the hard way when I flashed Pyrodex on a bunch of steel plates in my poorly ventilated basement. After a half dozen plates I felt like I was going to pass out. I knew from my experience at work that I had inhaled cyanide gas. At work I had been hospitalized several times after inhaling acrylonitrile fumes. You breath in the acrylonitrile and it breaks down to cyanide in your blood stream. DSo I dug out the Pyrodex patent and Lo und Behold there was the dicyanamide. Which explained why precombustion charges did not corrode the bore but post combustion reside did.
Now without a perchlorate in the 777 they could do away with the dicyanamide.
Now on the Internet message boards we had the Internet front man from Hodgdon monitoring any posts that might reflect badly on them or their product. One poster commented about toxic fumes given off by the burning of Pyrodex. Well. The Internet monitor really ripped into the guy. In part telling him that organonitriles do not give off toxic fumes. That proved to be the opening I was looking for. You see at work, in the PVC Pilot Plant we used this dicyanamide to passivate metal in glass lined reaction vessels with pieces of glass missing from the inside surfaces of these reaction vessels. This would help stop unwanted polymerized PVC from sticking to the walls of the reaction vessel. So I routinely heaved around 40 pound bags of this chemical. And on all edges/sides of the bags were big red warning labels to avoid heat, fire or flame as it evolves toxic fumes of cyanide when heated to it's decomposition temperature. So I posted that the man should get up from his desk and head out to the raw materials storage area and read the labels on the bags of this chemical. Boy did that end that thread in a hurry.
I laugh. These people that supply we ml shooters think we are all a bunch of dumb clods. Otherwise we would be shooting smokeless powders.
Bill K.
Here in the city we sometimes have problems of colonies of mice living under cement pads or short stairs in our back yards. A few ounces of Prodex in a sandwich bag and 6 inches of cannon fuse into the bag. Light the fuse, stuff the bag in the hole and sit a brick over the hole. The cyanide will take care of the entire mouse population in the in-ground colony.
Bill K.
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Thanks for sharing this, Bill Knight has long been recognized as the Subject Matter Expert when it comes to powder used in Muzzleloaders.
I think you should make this thread a "sticky" for all the readers that come behind us. :bl th up
Russ...
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Extremely interesting. I've never used anything but the Holy Black in my muzzle loaders, now I'm glad I didn't try the other stuff! I wonder if his anti-mouse tip would work for gophers? :laffing
~Kees~
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Extremely interesting. I've never used anything but the Holy Black in my muzzle loaders, now I'm glad I didn't try the other stuff! I wonder if his anti-mouse tip would work for gophers? :laffing
~Kees~
It's funny you should ask that, as he was asked that same exact question. :lol sign
Cyanide doesn't discriminate. :hairy
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Thanks for sharing this, Bill Knight has long been recognized as the Subject Matter Expert when it comes to powder used in Muzzleloaders.
I think you should make this thread a "sticky" for all the readers that come behind us. :bl th up
Russ...
Thanks Russ, I think that's a great idea. :hairy
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Having done all my shooting outside, I never really considered the ill effects of shooting lowly P*x.
I had always been of the opinion that it was less powerful, volume for volume. Was I ever surprised to do some chronograph work with the stuff maybe 18 or 20 years ago in my big bore rifles. I was testing GOEX vs P*x. In my .62 rifle, 200 grains of GOEX gave me 1,980 fps IIRC. 200 grains of P*x got me about 1,990 fps and 200 grains of P*x Select broke the 2,000 fps barrier, just barely. The problem was there was always a slight hangfire. Must have been the cyanide burning off?
I don't recall doing any testing on my .72 caliber, but I am sure I did, just don't recall the specifics.
Testing the 8 bore rifle really brought it home. With 300 grains of Fg, I got 1,425. Upping things to 300 grains of Ffg pumped it up to 1,525, and when I tried it with the Select, the ball scooted out the barrel at around 1,630 fps. And again, there was that darned slight hangfire. I tried P*x in a few other rifles that I had hanging around and consistently got a hangfire with it. All the rifles were equipped with musket nipples and used RWS musket caps.
Bottom line is I don't care to experience hangfires so I gave what was left in the container away to someone and haven't looked back since. Who knew I was safeguarding my health accidently.
Also, as I recall, I called up Chris Hodgdon one day and asked him why his powder was giving me better performance than black powder and he replied that I am the big bore specialist, and I should know. Not a lot of help there. Oh well.
Bigsmoke (now you know how I got my name - it sure wasn't from shooting 30 grains of Fffg in a .32 caliber)
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I figured out a long time ago that if it wasn't BP I wasn't going to shoot it! And the old 'horse hockey' put out by many as that they can't get BP is just that......horse hockey! :Doh! Powder Inc will deliver right to your door so basically all need be required is not to be to 'tight' to not order!! :o :*:
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I only tried Pyrodex RS one time about 20 some odd years ago and gave it away after trying / testing 10 shots. I didn't like it at all. I wanted to see what all the hype was about this stuff and I was not impressed. It always seemed to leave a liquid type fouling in the barrel that would leak down into the anti-breech chamber of the old .50 cal CVA Frontier Rifle I tested it in, and all it did was to created many a hang-fires. Pyrodex is pure junk, period!!!
Nothing at all IMHO will ever replace good ol' real black powder... Had I known it had cyanide in it, I'd a never bothered testing it at all.
I love my Goex! :hairy and Powder Inc is my supplier as well. Has been for a very long time. :hairy
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pyrodex and all those other zip gun kinda white devil junk powders are just a passing fancy. :lol sign
i won't use any gunpowder 'cept swiss 3f black powder. period. :shake :wave :*:
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Very good eye opener... I also read and saved the MDSD Safety Sheet on Alliant Black Mz
https://www.alliantpowder.com/downloads/sds/Black_MZ.pdf
It would seem all the sub powders are hazardous to anyone's health. :Doh!
Good ol Goex has minimal health hazards or risk.
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Good ol Goex has minimal health hazards or risk.
Really, Cottonwood ? I think there are hundreds if not thousands of deer that would argue that point! :luff: It all depends on which end of the smoke pole you're standing . :luff: :luff:
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Good ol Goex has minimal health hazards or risk.
Really, Cottonwood ? I think there are hundreds if not thousands of deer that would argue that point! :luff: It all depends on which end of the smoke pole you're standing . :luff: :luff:
You really are missing the point of my response... oh well, maybe you won't inhale to much sub powder smoke, or get sick from handling it. BTW, you're not funny.. I guess you like to laugh at
your own jokes too.
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Good ol Goex has minimal health hazards or risk.
Really, Cottonwood ? I think there are hundreds if not thousands of deer that would argue that point! :luff: It all depends on which end of the smoke pole you're standing . :luff: :luff:
:laffing :laffing :laffing :laffing :luff: :luff: :luff: :luff: I think your comment is hilarious!
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Cottonwood , I apologize if I offended you. I merely saw the unintended humor in your phrasing. Yes, I like to laugh at my own jokes, I tend to see the humor in everyday things. I am also a GOEX user, too.
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Cottonwood , I apologize if I offended you. I merely saw the unintended humor in your phrasing. Yes, I like to laugh at my own jokes, I tend to see the humor in everyday things. I am also a GOEX user, too.
Ah no problem... I posted that after not being able to sleep all night... had shoulder surgery last week... :*: lets have coffee and sit a spell.
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Sounds great to me!
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Cottonwood , I apologize if I offended you. I merely saw the unintended humor in your phrasing. Yes, I like to laugh at my own jokes, I tend to see the humor in everyday things. I am also a GOEX user, too.
Ah no problem... I posted that after not being able to sleep all night... had shoulder surgery last week... :*: lets have coffee and sit a spell.
Great!
:yessir:
Uncle Russ...
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lets have coffee and sit a spell
Sounds like a plan to me; I'm off to the kitchen to pour me one right now! :toast
~Kees~
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Beefing shooting Pyrodex since early 80's no problem and they sell a lot of the stuff.
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Vince, are you shooting it in a caplock or rocklock?