Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Traditional Firearms => Cap and Ball Revolvers => Topic started by: Ohio Joe on November 22, 2019, 02:59:12 PM
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Roughly, What Date Did They Stop Making Paper Cartridges For Percussion Revolvers?
I know many of us make our own, but what I'm looking for is a rough date in history when Companies stopped manufacturing the Percussion Revolver Paper Cartridge's?
We do know that revolvers after the Civil War (and some during) were being converted to brass cartridges, and many a plainsmen, lawmen & cowboys, and the common person, still carried cap-n-ball revolvers well after the Civil War had ended.
My guess with so many Cap & ball Revolvers being available after the Civil War, it would be uncommon not to continue the manufacturing of them even well after the 1873 Colt Peace Maker was introduced...
So, when did Colt & Remington (and whoever else may have been producing Revolver Paper Cartridges) stop the manufacturing of them?
Appreciate any info or thoughts you might have on this. :shake
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Ohio Joe try this https://www.colt.com/page/archive-services. They will send you an answer to your letter of inquiry. I didn't try Remington's site.
doggoner
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From looking at that site, it appears there truly is no free lunch, at least for firearm authentication.
Now for something like when did they quit making paper cartridges, that might just be a $25.00 question. Or more. Or less.
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Thanks doggoner, I didn't see anything on there that answered my question, and I wouldn't pay a fee to find out anyway as I was just curious... I'll keep searching. Thanks :shake
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:P :P :P I cannot believe that Colt would charge the public for historical information. That imo is really bad public relations.
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:P :P :P I cannot believe that Colt would charge the public for historical information. That imo is really bad public relations.
I have to agree, Oldetexian...
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Here is some information.
http://americancivilwarrelics.com/Civil%20War%20Cartridge%20Civil%20War%20Cartridge.htm
Reasonable thinking would tell me that some companies stayed in business making paper cartridges well after our Civil War ended.
Also, it's claimed (not at this site above) that Hickok in Deadwood, 1876 - would freshen his loads every morning in his .36 Colt Navy's (not only to freshen them by firing them off to put on a shooting display that sent a message to leave me the hell alone). I can't imagine him shooting both revolvers empty before reloading them - but rather empty one (then reload it) and then empty the second (then reloading it) always assuring himself that he had one loaded revolver on him, if needed... That's just common sense I would think. Now whether he used paper cartridges or flask and ball, my guess would be paper cartridges for less "down" time with that first empty revolver. (I wouldn't rule out spare cylinders either).
Now I can't imagine Hickok making his own paper cartridges (though he may have in his early years) but with his failing eyesight, I just kind'a think he bought them at the local "General Store / Trading Post" or perhaps he may have "rolled his own" or had a gunsmith in deadwood make them up for him?
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I read, many years ago, that Hickok would shoot one of his Navy Colts empty in the evening, then clean & oil it before reloading. Once the first one was ready for action he did the same for the other. Unfortunately, I don't think the article said anything about using cartridges, if he did. He could just as well have loaded from a flask, methinks.
~Kees~
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I read, many years ago, that Hickok would shoot one of his Navy Colts empty in the evening, then clean & oil it before reloading. Once the first one was ready for action he did the same for the other. Unfortunately, I don't think the article said anything about using cartridges, if he did. He could just as well have loaded from a flask, methinks.
~Kees~
Agreed :bl th up This we'll never know unfortunately.
What got me to thinking about all this is the cap-n-ball Revolvers I've had for over 40+ years with many a rounds sent through them (probably more then many shot theirs back in the C&B Revolver days)... They still work and hold up, so why wouldn't people of the C&B Revolver era - stick with what they had & knew? Money sure wasn't easy to come by back in the old west days. Card playing, drinking, and,,, well companionship,,, didn't come cheap on a Saturday night when the boys rode to town once a month... :Doh! Oh brother, this topic just must of hit rock bottom... :laffing
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What got me to thinking about all this is the cap-n-ball Revolvers I've had for over 40+ years with many a rounds sent through them (probably more then many shot theirs back in the C&B Revolver days)... They still work and hold up, so why wouldn't people of the C&B Revolver era - stick with what they had & knew? Money sure wasn't easy to come by back in the old west days. Card playing, drinking, and,,, well companionship,,, didn't come cheap on a Saturday night when the boys rode to town once a month... :Doh! Oh brother, this topic just must of hit rock bottom... :laffing
The topic is definitely "trending south," but I think we owe it to our great love of history to follow the trail where it leads... :lol sign :lol sign :lol sign
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I guess we'll never know the date on this question, but I'm willing to take a SWAG and say it was very close to Colt producing the 1873 Peacemaker.
Colt was a major "producer" of paper cartridges.
And since they now had a pistol that used metallic cartridges, there was no longer a need for the paper cartridge.
Years ago, Dixie Gun Works had some very interesting reading in the back of their Catalogs.
One such subject was an original copy of loading procedures for the then new 1860 Colt with both powder and ball, and cartridge paper and ball...emphasis was heavy on "cutting a ring" from the ball, and there was no mention anywhere about any kind of lube. I personally think the Armies Armory of the day may well have been the 1st to use any kind of lube following the introduction of the Colt 1851 which was issued to hundreds if not thousands of troops.
Then the 1858 Remington was introduced in .44 caliber with its quick change cylinders, lube became a must for sustainable firing, and Colt responded in 1860 with their own .44....There were many variances of these pistols in the in-between years but the 58 and the 60 was the standard issue.
The above statement is my own thoughts, and nothing I have read.
Although I've been a student of C&B Revolvers for many years the question by Joe has bugged me and prompted more reading, unfortunately I can't find a date.0
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I'm not sure when they went out of production, but combustible cartridges for Army and Navy revolvers were still available through commercial channels in 1892. In that year, one of my great-greats purchased several hundred in Navy size, and a couple hundred for the Army revolver (he was also able to obtain flints for his Leman that year).
Surplus cartridges appear to also have been available (from Bannerman's?) at least up til WWI.
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When one thinks about it, it would have taken some time for the US Military to have completely converted to the metallic cartridge, and the civilians most likely used their cap and ball revolvers until they either wanted a new firearm that took the metal cartridges or they just plain wore out the ol' cap-n-ball revolver... So there was a market for them if some manufacturer kept making them.
Of course, it's way different today, naturally... :shake
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Some folks never did switch over. I'm told the cousin who now has the Navy still shoots it. I found out a few years ago that in the early '70s--1970s--Grandpa Anderson shot a housebreaker with his 1860. . . which he was still loading with paper cartridges his grandfather purchased.
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I guess we'll never know the date on this question, but I'm willing to take a SWAG and say it was very close to Colt producing the 1873 Peacemaker.
Colt was a major "producer" of paper cartridges.
And since they now had a pistol that used metallic cartridges, there was no longer a need for the paper cartridge.
Since Sam Colt was sales-oriented, I'm pretty sure he thought that if he didn't make paper cartridges, folks would be motivated to buy an SAA from him.
.
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I also understand that there were quite a few conversions done to the cap & ball revolvers so they could use the metal cartridge. For the most part, I expect this was left to the local gunsmiths of the day to do... Though I do wonder if the Colt Factory did some as well?
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Colt worked around S&W's patent with the Thuer conversion; it was a lousy conversion and not real popular. After the patent expired, the Richards conversion was used (designed to use up old parts!). When they ran out of some of the parts, they went to the Richards-Mason conversion. Eventually (actually, this all happened in a few years!) the factory did a re-designed purpose-built cartridge version of the 1860: the 1871 Colt aka the Opentop. Production of one model didn't stop with the introduction of the next model--gotta use up parts, ya know.
But as for if Colt ever offered the conversion as a service. . . they did convert revolvers for the gov't, at the rate of ~$3.50 per. Some people apparently were able to get conversions done at the factory, but I'm unsure if they "knew a guy who knew a guy" or if it was a service offered by Colt. Everyone and their dog was doing conversions for a while, I've seen old ads offering the service for $2.75. Used C&B revolvers were fairly cheap after the Civil War, new price on an 1860 was about $14.50 in 1865. Colt charged the gov't $13.50 for the 1873 P when it came out.
Remington actually started doing conversions earlier--early enough they had to pay a royalty to S&W for the use of the bored-through cylinder. Conversion cost (for a dealer, in a large quantity) was ~$3.50, with S&W getting $1 royalties. Cartridge was a weird .46 cal rimfire, old stories I heard suggest that it would also fire the .44 Henry as long as you didn't expect to hit anything past spitting distance.