Traditional Muzzleloading Association
The Center of Camp => The Campfire => Topic started by: JB67 on October 06, 2020, 06:14:00 PM
-
After cancelling several events due to the pandemic, the NMLRA has decided not to refund fees for camping reservations at its grounds. For some people, this is over $1,000 they laid out for the year.
The excuse is their "no refunds" policy in the agreement everyone signs. That agreement reads:
1) CAMP FEES
Camping fees must be paid for each camping unit occupying campsites. The established rules and regulations will govern your conduct on the Walter Cline Range campground. YOUR PERMIT MAY BE REVOKED for violations of any of the rules and regulations. NO REFUNDS.
That is the only mention of refunds anywhere in the agreement. The vast majority of people would interpret this to mean no refunds if the person reserving the site cancels, or if they get kicked out for violating the rules. Never does a venue keep fees if the venue cancels the event, but that is what they're doing.
It seems this policy was adopted when the NMLRA had to cancel an event after severe storm damage. They refunded fees then, and it nearly broke them financially. That was in 1996. In 24 years, the NMLRA has not improved its financial situation nor taken steps to ensure fees could be refunded if an event had to be cancelled.
The attitude so far has been, "Sorry, we are keeping your money. Rules are rules." They so much as said just that in their letters.
Nevermind they went ahead with plans for September while things were still uncertain. Nevermind the rules are vague. Nevermind it is unethical, and may be illegal to refuse refunds.
I had just joined the NMLRA in June, but if this is how they operate, I'm out. I emailed them and told them to cancel my membership.
-
HA! They deleted comments and locked a thread on Facebook! On top of that, it appears they kicked me off their page! :luff:
-
They do seem to love their "regulations." :o
-
Well it sure seems like they've put the screws to their membership once again, which I'll add is not surprising...
IMHO, a person is better off to support their local muzzle loading club and events... I feel you're more apt to get a fair deal from them - then you will from the NMLRA...
-
I quit the NMLRA when they decided to back inlines!
-
Well it sure seems like they've put the screws to their membership once again, which I'll add is not surprising...
IMHO, a person is better off to support their local muzzle loading club and events... I feel you're more apt to get a fair deal from them - then you will from the NMLRA...
I was trying to be supportive, and was interested in the magazine. Muzzleloader is a better publication.
-
Well it sure seems like they've put the screws to their membership once again, which I'll add is not surprising...
IMHO, a person is better off to support their local muzzle loading club and events... I feel you're more apt to get a fair deal from them - then you will from the NMLRA...
I was trying to be supportive, and was interested in the magazine. Muzzleloader is a better publication.
Quite understandable JB67... I expect at one time or another most all here at the TMA was an NMLRA Member until they turned their back on their core value of traditional muzzle loading by siding with the modern Inline muzzle loading firearm industry... In short, they sold their organizations sole and didn't think twice about doing it...
-
I think the NMLRA's actions are reprehensible , if not down right illegal. I also told them what I thought of their larceny and quit the organization . Removed their stickers from truck, too.
-
a long time member of NMLRA sent me a BUNCH of their mags, which I read thru and disposed of..
he also quit due to the Inline debacle...and wanted to dispose of their mags
I would agree that if someone cancels an event they then need to belly up and refund any monies paid into them... NOT refunding if you're a PUTZ who breaks the rules and gets the BOOT only makes sense to me, but not this BS...
Alas, we all make our bed, then we lie in it! ;banghead;
-
Seems totally wrong to me for any organization to refuse refunding deposits for events they cancelled, no matter what the reason. But we have to remember that the first and most important job of EVERY organization is to survive...doesn't condone or excuse the NMLRA's actions, but makes them understandable...no less reprehensible, just understandable.
-
Seems totally wrong to me for any organization to refuse refunding deposits for events they cancelled, no matter what the reason. But we have to remember that the first and most important job of EVERY organization is to survive...doesn't condone or excuse the NMLRA's actions, but makes them understandable...no less reprehensible, just understandable.
If they did it once,.... they'll probably do it again (if given the excuse). :(
-
If they did it once,.... they'll probably do it again (if given the excuse). :(
Indeed...when I worked in the RCA factory eons ago they had a crude saying, "Screw me once, shame on you, do it twice shame on me!!" so foretold is forewarned...
Not to pick a fight with ole tex, but I think an org's role is not to survive but to serve it's Membership...just my two cents...Too much of that 'devil take the hindmost" justification for bad behavior in today's world, in my not so humble opinion..., but then I'm old and cantankerous... :Doh! 8) ;banghead;
-
It's just a very wrong thing to do to people IMHO...
I wonder how many folks had planned this as their first trip to a long standing event that they always wanted to attend (not to leave out those who attend annually) and this was their chance to actually get to go... I expect some saved for it for a very long time, and now they're out their money, their trip, their enthusiasm to ever try and attend another event like this,,, and perhaps now they never can afford to do so again. This was their first and only chance at something they had dreamed about for a very long time... I truly feel for those folk, and all of them that got the screws put to them...
It certainly doesn't speak very highly of the NMLRA in my humble opinion.
-
Seems totally wrong to me for any organization to refuse refunding deposits for events they cancelled, no matter what the reason. But we have to remember that the first and most important job of EVERY organization is to survive...doesn't condone or excuse the NMLRA's actions, but makes them understandable...no less reprehensible, just understandable.
Excuse me but theft Is NEVER "understandable " or excusable! Organizations first job is to survive? So Enron's theft of their own employees retirement was understandable? Individual rights should ALWAYS outweigh organizations or corporations rights.
-
I was a member since the mid 80's. The national rondyvoo would give you a $10.00 discount for being a member so I quit when I only went to 1 national rondyvoo a year. I'd still be a member if I could get my membership dues back in voo discounts but there just isn't enough of them any more. They (association and foundation) lost me when they had nothing to offer me. The magazine is certainly nothing special either. member # 135092
-
Looks like a consensus to me that it's not a favored organization no mo... ;banghead;
-
I love all the comments generated by my response...that's what makes a good discussion imo.
The thought (right or wrong) that an organization's first responsibility is to survive is definitely worth debate, but you will seldom see it stated. Normally, however, it is the guiding principle behind all operations. At least that holds true in most of the large organizations of which I have had experience. I agree...that doesn't make it right, but nevertheless it seems to be what guides most corporate decisions.
-
Back in 1996, storm damage resulted in the NMLRA having to refund camping fees. It caused financial difficulties. For 24 years since, they have had the policy of no refunds under any circumstances rather than taking steps to mitigate financial risk from cancelling events.
If their financial situation is still that tenuous, they shouldn't be in business.
-
No shenanigans like this will ever take place with the TMA,.... our TMA Members ALWAYS come first and foremost. :bl th up
-
It seems like water has been a constant problem in Friendship, IN.
Either not enough
OR
Too much.
I heard that they finally got a water main bigger than a common garden hose installed and that helped some.
Flooding is a problem that seems beyond the means of the town and/or the organization.
Then this darn CORONA-19 struck and all bets were off. It seems that if they had an ounce of brains, they would apply for some sort of Federal Grant and use that to repay the camping fees.
Say what you want to about the organization, and people do, but darn it, they know how to run one heck of a good shooting match.
Now, this COVID thing did not hurt a single little bit of the camping area, the target range or the trader's row, so there is no excuse for them not to refund the reservation money, even if they only sent back a portion of it and keep the balance That would buy them a lot of good will, I think. But I also am not a member anymore, wo I guess I don't have much say.
-
Kind 'a wonder how the little Mom & Pop businesses in the little town of Friendship (right next to the NMLRA facilities) feel about that no refund policy?
It'll hurt their businesses as those National Shoots are "big business" for those little shops... I wonder if the NMLRA even bothered to take them into consideration on how their "no refund" policy will effect that little community that has always showed support for their NMLRA neighbor...
I have a hunch that "no refund" decision is gonna cause more trouble and effect more folks then a person may think once things return to normal...
-
ah yes, the NMLRA ... we knew and loved you SO well, SO many decades ago, now look what you've become. yuck.
traditional muzzleloaders are a niche sport at best, nestled in the now much maligned and literally hated "American gun culture". the bottom of the firearms totem pole in terms of popularity when ar15s and glocks are the darlings of young and old alike. sure, the public interest spikes when period hollyweird movies make their brief scene (jeremiah johnson, the patriot, the revenant, etc), and then interest quickly wans.
the NMLRA was a fine organization whence it was first contrived. their focus, goals, and ideals were all something to reflect and admire. today, that org is a mere ghost of what it was, and in every manner possible. once a certain group assumed the NMLRA helm, things started heading south in bad way. one of the first things the NMLRA enacted was to ban "blowing down the barrel". the ban was to clearly to appease the public's misconception of that important safety practice. when the overall American interests in all things trad ML started to dissipate, and the NMLRA was feeling those monetary impacts with regards to footing all the bills required to keep and maintain their Friendship range and headquarters, desperate measures were taken. first up was to acknowledge and support modern inline muzzleloaders. eventually, 19th century cartridge rifles were also included. so yup, this isn't Kansas anymore, Dorothy. the NMLRA bubble done got burst and it's no longer anything like it was from the get-to. the main reason is Friendship and the overwhelming need for survival capitol.
for more about "blowing down the barrel" and the NMLRA ... http://bwanabob.info/page2.html
-
Rob,
I've read this article before about blowing down the barrel (which I do, always have, and always will)...
IMHO it's a safe act, and the "Fool" that doesn't (know -or- realize) his/her muzzle loading firearm discharged when they pulled that trigger - well,,, I'd have to question their presence of mind to the point that they don't belong on a shooting line to begin with! They are the real danger.
Maybe I'm living in my own little world of Traditional muzzle loading, but after 40+ years of doing so I'm not about to change my ways no matter what a group from southern Indiana says...
I also believe in honesty and fair play, something IMHO the NMLRA forgot about and discarded a long time ago.
:shake
-
Excellent article Rob,
Thanks to you both for your posts.
THE logic behind blowing is solid enough that I will always do it, indeed, I know guys who have fired a T/C , reloaded and then left the danged alum Ramrod in the bbl with the charged ball because they were chatting away...
Muzzleloaders require a different frame of mind then ctg gun with "white devil powder", but they all demand conscious thought and respect, not distraction...the above individual told me that on ignition he felt enhanced recoil with the 50 cal ball AND the ram rod, and wondered WTF till he went to reload and found he had no RRod...I found it in a nice curled up state in the embankment at the 50 yard range next time there after he ordered a replacement and gave it to him for disposal and a reminder to be smart and keep his yap shut
I have not nor will ever be a member of NMLRA due to this fahdarah, but it's nice to read of the history and sad at the same time to see even out miniscule sport cave to the nummies... :(:(
-
:hairy Thanks for sharing that article, Rob. It is spot on in my estimation. And, as always, if someone doesn't have the common sense necessary to pour piss out of a boot, well, they shouldn't be let out unsupervised... and by the way...I have burned my lips more than once...but never wrapped around the barrel of my flinchlock...just saying :lol sign
-
:hairy Thanks for sharing that article, Rob. It is spot on in my estimation. And, as always, if someone doesn't have the common sense necessary to pour piss out of a boot, well, they shouldn't be let out unsupervised... and by the way...I have burned my lips more than once...but never wrapped around the barrel of my flinchlock...just saying :lol sign
I havent burned my lips on a BP gunbarrel either but I can say it's left a hideous taste in my mouth on occasion :bigsmile: :luff: