Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Craftsmanship => Gun Building and Repair => Topic started by: Winter Hawk on October 24, 2020, 04:04:33 PM
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A while back I sent the plastic stock for a little Bobcat I have, to Pecatonica River Long Rifle Supply, with a request that they replicate it in maple with a full stock. Rather than trying to copy the whole stock they suggested using a T-C replacement stock, inlet for the CVA. That's what we agreed on and they came in the mail yesterday. The lock and trigger group fit perfectly, while I will need to do a touch of cutting where the corners are round instead of square to make the tang fit. I am impressed with this; it will be a neat Winter project! Photos will be forthcoming once I start work on it.
~Kees~
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A while back I sent the plastic stock for a little Bobcat I have, to Pecatonica River Long Rifle Supply, with a request that they replicate it in maple with a full stock. Rather than trying to copy the whole stock they suggested using a T-C replacement stock, inlet for the CVA. That's what we agreed on and they came in the mail yesterday. The lock and trigger group fit perfectly, while I will need to do a touch of cutting where the corners are round instead of square to make the tang fit. I am impressed with this; it will be a neat Winter project! Photos will be forthcoming once I start work on it.
~Kees~
Outstanding!!! Can't wait to see it. :hairy
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:hairy
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Outstanding!!! Can't wait to see it. :hairy
Well, you are just going to have to wait. This is a WINTER project! :laffing :laffing :laffing
~Kees~
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Outstanding!!! Can't wait to see it. :hairy
Well, you are just going to have to wait. This is a WINTER project! :laffing :laffing :laffing
~Kees~
Well, it's kind 'a winter here right now, Kees... 8 to 10 inches of snow and cold... Can I see it now??? :lol sign
I do look forward to seeing it once you have 'er all done. :hairy
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Well, with all the work being done by ShootrJ2003, I have been shamed into finally starting on the Bobcat. It's been sitting in the closet with the new stock so yesterday I got the tang fitted, then drilled the holes for the lock bolt and tang - trigger plate bolt. The plastic butt palate would never work so I have a brass one on order from Track. The only problem was that Pecatonica had made the inlet for the lock a smidgen too deep so this morning I mixed up some thickened epoxy and dabbed that in the proper places, then set the lock plate (after liberally applying Johnson's past wax followed by Vaseline as release agents) in place even with the surface of the stock. I did this rather than sanding the stock down, because the hammer was hitting the nipple inboard of being centered. I believe it will now be smack on.
After seeing Hanshi's photo of the muzzle of his fowler I think I may go without a muzzle cap, maybe no thimble where the ramrod channel transitions into a hole in the stock. Not sure about that last.
But, I have a question for the members here. The plastic stock attaches the barrel with a wedge which I can use also on the wood one. However, I will also have to fit one towards the front of the stock. I am debating pinning the barrel in place instead. What are the advantages and disadvantages of both ways to fasten the them together? Other than the obvious advantage of wedges to remove the barrel for cleaning.
Okay, enough of this, I'm going to make some Sleepy Time tea for Carol and get ready for bed.
~Kees~
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Plastic stock - Wood pictures later!
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Kees, I can only speak for myself...
On my rebuilds and builds, I always pin... If you oblong the hole in the barrel underlug (for the pin), you will have no problems with stock expansion and contraction when shooting as the wood stock will climatizes to temperature change, (from either nature or use from the barrel warming as you shoot). Oblong the pinhole in the lug - east to west. It doesn't take much.
Now you'll never see the stock reacting / but if the lug holes are not oblong - it will show up in accuracy.
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You've done well, pilgrim..... :hairy
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On my rebuilds and builds, I always pin...
But why Joe? What is the advantage of pinning versus wedges, other than that you have a cleaner looking stock?
You've done well, pilgrim.....
Thank you for the kind words, but let's wait until you see the final product; I have lots of chances to turn a nice stock into firewood! :laffing
~Kees~
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But why Joe? What is the advantage of pinning versus wedges, other than that you have a cleaner looking stock?
Well Kees, IMHO;
Yes, you can remove a wedge key on the hooked breech barrel for easy take out and cleaning. However, every time the barrel is removed,,, is it put back in the exact (and I do mean exact) spot from your last good zero point that produced good groups?
Should you have to loosen the Tang screw to get the wedged barrel out, is that Tang screw set at the exact same pressure it was before taking out the barrel for cleaning? Is the wedge to barrel at the exact same pressure once the wedge is removed - then re' inserted? (Now this might not show up immediately, but eventually it will).
With a pinned barrel you don't have these concerns... Your cleaning routine will be different most like, and that's not to say that you can't get a pinned barrel as clean as a hooked breech / wedge held barrel - because you can.
The less any barrel from any firearm riding in a stock - is not removed - that firearm will maintain its accuracy much better.
One other thing, (in the field or at the Range) a wedge can work loose - and even sometimes get lost in the field. Also when a wedge works loose you can tap the bottom of the wedge key holder to tighten it, but that also changes the pressure to the barrel / wood fit - and could affect accuracy.
I've never heard of a pin working loose, or even being lost in the field or at the Range.
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Good points Joe, thank you!
~Kees~
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You're welcome Kees.
I might mention too, that the above info was the leading reason I pinned the barrel's of all my dedicated competition ML Rifles, (which also led me to pinning my "everyday (so to speak)" ML Rifles.
I've seen many a Lyman & TC's, as well as the old double wedged CVA Mountain Rifle - hold their own on the firing line. I've seen some of them with their wedge pin(s) cover with a piece of bicycle inner tube and even electrical tape for harmonic's of no barrel to stock change during a 20 minute / 5 shot competition.
So in the end, it's what suits you best. :shake
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A question for Joe, Rondo, Rob & others who have built their guns. I have a butt plate which will work just find (I hope :laffing). Now what is the best way to saw the butt to the contours of the plate? Mind you, I don't have the fancy electrical tools except for a drill, skil saw and jig saw so no band saw, drill press etc. I do have a good selection of hand tools. I think I will have to position the butt plate alongside the stock in the proper position and then trace a pencil line along it to saw along. After using a coping saw to make the cut I blacken the edges of the plate and position it and sand off the black on the wood. Repeat until there are no places without black, drill the butt and screw the plate to the it, then sand/file any proud wood or metal until they are a perfect (???) match. Is there anything I am forgetting?
Thanks,
~Kees~
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A question for Joe, Rondo, Rob & others who have built their guns. I have a butt plate which will work just find (I hope :laffing). Now what is the best way to saw the butt to the contours of the plate? Mind you, I don't have the fancy electrical tools except for a drill, skil saw and jig saw so no band saw, drill press etc. I do have a good selection of hand tools. I think I will have to position the butt plate alongside the stock in the proper position and then trace a pencil line along it to saw along. After using a coping saw to make the cut I blacken the edges of the plate and position it and sand off the black on the wood. Repeat until there are no places without black, drill the butt and screw the plate to the it, then sand/file any proud wood or metal until they are a perfect (???) match. Is there anything I am forgetting?
Thanks,
~Kees~
Got images to share?
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A question for Joe, Rondo, Rob & others who have built their guns. I have a butt plate which will work just find (I hope :laffing). Now what is the best way to saw the butt to the contours of the plate? Mind you, I don't have the fancy electrical tools except for a drill, skil saw and jig saw so no band saw, drill press etc. I do have a good selection of hand tools. I think I will have to position the butt plate alongside the stock in the proper position and then trace a pencil line along it to saw along. After using a coping saw to make the cut I blacken the edges of the plate and position it and sand off the black on the wood. Repeat until there are no places without black, drill the butt and screw the plate to the it, then sand/file any proud wood or metal until they are a perfect (???) match. Is there anything I am forgetting?
Thanks,
~Kees~
Pretty much the way you do yours - is the way I do mine - only I use my band saw cutting from the rear into (close to the out-line of the butt plate / leaving it proud) - then I cut that curve away / again leaving the line proud,,, and then do the final shaping with files and sandpaper... So whatever works for you is the best way to go IMHO. :bl th up It still comes down to a piece of hardware that needs fitted.
You can't make it out in the picture - but there is a brass toe-plate at the bottom of the butt plate.
(https://i.imgur.com/A7HoRPj.jpg?1)
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Got images to share?
Notice the blood stain on the cheek piece. :o
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Thanks Joe. I got the easiest butt plate I could for this first time effort so it doesn't have the extension on top, nor a toe plate (although the latter can always be added later). :laffing
~Kees~
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Got images to share?
Notice the blood stain on the cheek piece. :o
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Thanks Joe. I got the easiest butt plate I could for this first time effort so it doesn't have the extension on top, nor a toe plate (although the latter can always be added later). :laffing
~Kees~
I'm thinking the CVA Frontier didn't have a top extension on its butt-plate. is that right, or am I remembering wrong? I bought one a long time ago and sold it a few weeks later to a feller who just loved that little short .50 caliber.
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Got images to share?
Notice the blood stain on the cheek piece. :o
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Thanks Joe. I got the easiest butt plate I could for this first time effort so it doesn't have the extension on top, nor a toe plate (although the latter can always be added later). :laffing
~Kees~
Love the blood stain - now yer connected to that gun no matter what. :laffing
Bandsaw would work best for the butt stock crescent cut, but it could be cut square with a handsaw and then rasped to shape. Screw on the butt plate and rasp the stock to fit. Aside from the crescent shape, a relatively easy butt plate to install since it's on one plane and not two (no top).
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Almost forgot Kees, are you going to allow for cast off, or run straight with that butt plate. Sometimes that cast off can be a pain if you go too much - and factory over the counter rifles usually don't have cast off - so if you're use to shooting factory stocked rifles - I wouldn't go the cast off route.
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Just straight. Once I get through this one I'll think on what else I can screw up.... :o :lol sign
~Kees~
With much trepidation I set to work with the coping saw with the pictured results. I'll see if I can find a round or half round rasp tomorrow to start working it down more. Or maybe just use 80 grit sandpaper around a 1" dowel. I will have to remember to take my time. As someone here said, "patience, little grasshopper!"
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Believe it or not... I find fitting a butt plate properly the most frustrating job on any rifle build! slow and easy with lots of inletting black!
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Believe it or not... I find fitting a butt plate properly the most frustrating job on any rifle build! slow and easy with lots of inletting black!
I will definitely believe it!
~Kees~
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They are a tricky beast for sure! But doable. :bl th up
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For curved butt ends, I use a set of drum sanders ($27 @ Harbor Freight) in my power hand drill.
https://www.harborfreight.com/4-piece-quick-change-sanding-drum-set-35455.html
(https://shop.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_17497.jpg)
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I thought about doing something like that but it seems that whenever I use power tools (including Dremmel) I end up taking too much off and then having to do something else to cover up the mistake. So, I have an order in for a half round rasp set: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07WLND7VX?ref=ppx_pt2_dt_b_prod_image
Slow & easy wins the race, I hope!
~Kees~
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Another question: what to use for pins to pin the barrel to the stock? I thought that brass was traditional, in which case I need to find some brazing rod. Howsomever, I do have some steel rods about 1/16" diameter which could be used. I just wonder about it being susceptible to rust. The H&A underhammer, my first ML rifle which I foolishly sold, had the forearm pinned on with brass. Which would be better, steel or brass?
In the meantime, I have the butt almost completely matching the butt plate; just a few more passes with the rasp should do it. Then I will file the edges of the plate to match the wood and the wood to match the plate and I'm done there.
The barrel has two dovetails in the bottom flat. One was for the wedge lug, the other for the nut to which the under rib was screwed. I'm planning to use them for the underlugs. However, the one for the wedge is way long, almost 3/4" and the other is shorter than a standard 3/8" as they are both metric. I am making underlugs to fit from some pieces of steel I picked up at the hardware store. I only have 0.233" of wood between the barrel channel and the ramrod channel so not enough to even think about using wedges to hold it together.
All in all it's another learning experience!
~Kees~
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I have the butt plate pretty well in place. There is a sliver of space on both sides between the wood and the plate, and I'm not overly happy with the toe but I'll go with it as it is for now. Need to concentrate on the barrel under lugs. then the ramrod channel and hole are/were a tad bit too small a diameter. I have sanded out the channel, not sure what to do about the hole as I don't have a l-o-n-g drill. I'm thinking of getting a 1/4" dowel and attaching sandpaper to the end, then running that in and out, possibly chucked in a drill to enlarge the hole.
Any advice will be appreciated!
~Kees~
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Would it be possible to scrape and sand the rod to fit?
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Keys, I like the 1/16 steel rivet shaft that is used for the 1/8 rivet... I've never had one of these show the slightest sign of bend under continuous recoil over the years... Personally, I feel if you used a brass pin - it would eventually show signs of bending and would effect your accuracy. Just my opinion... :shake
(You can always blue that steel barrel pin. I've never had one "rust" to where I couldn't get it out.)
PS... Nice job on that butt-plate!!!
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Would it be possible to scrape and sand the rod to fit?
I thought of that, but the metal fittings at the end would have to be decreased also. Ramrods from my other rifles are also very tight in this stock. The RR channel sanded down nicely so all I need to do is increase the diameter of the drilled hole and I'm good.
Kees, I like the 1/16 steel rivet shaft that is used for the 1/8 rivet... I've never had one of these show the slightest sign of bend under continuous recoil over the years... Personally, I feel if you used a brass pin - it would eventually show signs of bending and would effect your accuracy. Just my opinion... :shake
(You can always blue that steel barrel pin. I've never had one "rust" to where I couldn't get it out.)
Sounds like that's the way for me to go. I can always change it later if I decide to!
PS... Nice job on that butt-plate!!!
Thank you, you are much too kind! I see gaps which should not be there, but at this point I will continue on with the barrel under lugs.
Now one more question, what do the cognoscenti suggest for stain? I have tried the cans from Walmart & Lowe's with less than spectacular results, and am tending to Laurel Mountain Forge or Birchwood-Casey. Finish will be Linspeed as that has done well for me in the past.
~Kees~
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I see gaps which should not be there but at this point I will continue on with the barrel under lugs.
Well, there's a fix for that... Just take either beeswax or dark wood putty - remove the butt-plate and put a edge of putty all around the underside of the plate and reinstall it - then edge off what squeezed out when the screws are tightened. The butt plate is IMHO, considered a permanent fixture (though it's something that can always be repurposed on another stock build...
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That sounds like cheating! :laffing
Still, I may have to try it once I have the stock finished. Thank you for the suggestion!
~Kees~
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Okay, I had a DeerHunter .50 (same as the Bobcat just mfg. for Traditions) for way over 20 years. Being an old one it had a wood stock & ramrod and used, of course, a wedge key. When I bought mine, early 1990s, it was the best rifle for the money I could find, being just a little over a "C" note. With the brass butt plate & pins yours will be waaay nicer than my birch stocked, plastic BP model.
You are correct about the brass pin being used for the under hammer, I still have mine. Several, or more, years ago I bought a small supply of ss 1/16" pin stock that I've been using to pin just about everything (muzzleloading) that needed a pin. No rust and it worked really great. It's not necessary, I know, just throwing it out there.
From what I can see you're doing a far better job than I ever could. Four of my rifles/guns lack a fore-end cap. And from what I understand they can be frustrating to fit properly. Plus they're really only needed on the styles of rifles that originally had them. All of this you know already.
I am intrigued with your build and look forward to seeing the finished product. The blood is a nice touch, by the way. :bl th up
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I get my pin stock at a hobby shop that sells radio controlled planes. They use them for hinge pins on all the control surfaces. Never rust...
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Getting along s-l-o-w-l-y. I have silver soldered some steel in the slots on the existing under lugs, then filed them down so they won't be deep enough to go into the RR channel. The soldering job is not very elegant but it will serve its purpose (I hope), and they will be hidden in the wood.
Today I cleaned out the shop a bit and swept off the work bench. I will continue with cleaning tomorrow, just so I don't get that stock wood dirty while making the inlets for the under lugs. I'm waiting for the walnut stain I ordered, then I can put a finish on this puppy and put it together.
~Kees~
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Time for an update. I don't have new photos, that will have to wait a week or so. However, I have the stock completed and now it needs 7-10 days to completely dry. I stained it with Birchwood-Casey walnut. I had read somewhere that B-C was an alcohol based stain, and I have also been advised to stay away from water based and use alcohol based. So the stain arrived and it is water based. Decided to use it anyway. I had the stock smooth as the proverbial baby's behind, sanded down to 400 grit and whiskered several times until it wouldn't raise any more when wet. After applying the stain it (of course) raised more whiskers. A good rub down with 0000 steel wool took care of that problem.
I used GB Lin-Speed (https://www.lin-speed.com/), which I have used in the past with good results. The instructions were somewhat different from what I remember (see the web site) but it came out very nice. I am pleased with the end result. The directions say to let the final coats dry 7-10 days so that is where I am at.
I ran into a small problem with the lock screw being a tad too short to get a good grip in the lock plate. Being from Spain, it is metric, but I was able to tap the hole in the plate for a #8-40 thread and will order a new screw from Track of the Wolf while waiting for the finish to dry. Otherwise it looks like the rifle is ready to be put back together, get some photos taken, and taken out and SHOT!
~Kees~
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Gotter Done! I don't think folks will notice the "oopsies" (and there are plenty!); it has been a learning experience.
Anyway, photos:
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What I started with; I had already painted the black stock with a plastic spray-on paint.
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I think it looks fine. Let us know how she shoots. :shake
Have to say, that whenever I see these kind of projects, I just want to build something. Good thing cooler weather is getting here - or else I'd be out in the workshop... :laffing
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Wow, that looks Great! :hairy :hairy
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Thank you for the kind words! :bow Joe, notice that I bought the new stock several years ago. Then I procrastinated until the middle of last year to actually get started on it. Now it is another year before it has finally been completed, mostly because I was afraid I would ruin a good piece of wood so kept putting off working on it.
Like I said though, it has been a learning experience. Now I'm thinking of getting a new stock for the Hodgepodge rifle from Pecatonica and turning it into a full stock....
I think it will shoot well; after all, Bobcat did well with the original plastic stock. Maybe I'll use it for our October postal shoot, if we have one. :laffing
~Kees~
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Kees, I think that'd make a right nice handy deer rifle out in the woods. :hairy
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Looks great!! I wouldn't be surprised if Traditions or DWG copied it.
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It definitely look way better than they ever come out of the factory looking. I do like it with that full stock; very cool.
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I got the idea for a full stock years ago from a lady on the old TradRag site. She had sent her Bobcat to (oh curses, I can't remember his name - made the Rugrat guns) and he made it up for her. Then she wrapped the barrel in string and used bleach on it to give it a different look other than plain bluing. It looked pretty nice.
~Kees~
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I got out to the range today and, after three shots to confirm the sights, I shot my October postal target. I can't say that I am pleased with it. The factory rear sight was not conducive to good accuracy, at least not for my eyes. I'll see what I have in the goody box to replace it.
As light as the rifle is, it thumped me pretty good with 70 grains of FFFg Goex. When the boy was using it I had a pound or more of lead in the plastic stock to tame the recoil. I may revisit that and drill a hole in the butt to fill with lead. Otherwise all went well and I am pretty please with it.
~Kees~
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I got out to the range today and, after three shots to confirm the sights, I shot my October postal target. I can't say that I am pleased with it. The factory rear sight was not conducive to good accuracy, at least not for my eyes. I'll see what I have in the goody box to replace it.
As light as the rifle is, it thumped me pretty good with 70 grains of FFFg Goex. When the boy was using it I had a pound or more of lead in the plastic stock to tame the recoil. I may revisit that and drill a hole in the butt to fill with lead. Otherwise all went well and I am pretty please with it.
~Kees~
Kees, if you're not going to hunt with it, and only shoot 25 yards, I'd just drop that charge down to 50 grains and see what the rifle does... Your call of course. :shake
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What Joe just posted rings true for a few good reasons. A reduced charge for paper or steel at distances 50 yards and under will make for less recoil and better accuracy. Not to mention less powder burned = win-win-win. :bl th up :shake
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+1 :bl th up
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:bigsmile: I agree, gentlemen. In fact, I was going to go down to 35 grains since I have a measure for that. But it is attached to the shooting bag while the larger one is attached to the horn strap and it was just easier to use the larger one. When Nathanael was shooting it he used a 50 grain measure which I should have grabbed as I went out the door. :Doh!
~Kees~
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The only thing to be a bit careful about with light loads is if the gun in question has a patent breech plug. You don't want to charge less than the volume of the ante chamber, else there could be a space 'tween patched ball and powder. I think I did a test with a .50 GPR and the ante chamber volume was 25 grains. I have a Gemmer Hawken flint .50 kit coming next week and will be pulling the breech plug to anti seize the threads and will check it's patent breech volume.
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You should be okay with a 35 grain charge with that CVA. My kids and grandkids started out with an old .45 CVA Kentucky rifle that I shorten the barrel (from the muzzle) to 26 inches, and they've always shot 35 grains of 3fg from this particular rifle with never a misfire. I don't think I'd go much more below that charge of 35 grains since we're talking .45 -vs- .50 cal...
I'm not a fan of the bolster type chamber, but they are a solid piece of work after examining one that I took off another CVA .45 Rilfe when building my wife her little .45. I shortened this particular rifle barrel from the breech end / and drilled tapped for a breech plug and installed a side mount drum - than drilled and tapped for a nipple...
I was younger then, and these things came rather easy to me back then... :shake
Here's a picture with a q-tip passing from the anti chamber to the Drum;
(https://i.imgur.com/kYWj0rD.jpg?2)
Just a side-note; I have that anti chamber in front of me now and the opening is a 3/16ths hole running 3/8ths deep - then a sharp turn of about 3/8" into the drum. You'd really have to tap the side of your barrel a 'lot and with fine powder to get powder into the (less then 1/8" nipple cap channel to the Anti Chamber). I don't like the setup, but it is a solid one built to take pressure for sure.