Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Shooting Traditional Firearms and Weapons => General Interest => Topic started by: KDubs on October 24, 2020, 07:59:00 PM
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I've been reading a lot about patch lubes and like most I am in search of that perfect lube.
I currently use a .530 ball and .018 ticking patch in my TC hawken .54.
so far I have used spit , TC prelubed patches ( bore butter I assume) something called spitball and coconut oil. they all seem to have good results best as I can tell. normal looking patches.
using what pyrodex R/S I have left and a 90gr charge, there is usually a satisfying boooooom and a nice shove in my shoulder.
well a couple days ago I was grooming what some people call a beard or a good attempt at one, anyway as I was applying my beard balm I took notice of how slick it felt and how easily in melted soooo, I grabbed a few dry 018 patches and lubed them up. left a few out to air dry, tossed a few in the freezer. didn't freeze and the patch was soft, air dry left a thin dry like coating that melted easily in my fingers. hmmm
looking at the ingredients it is all organic oils and conditioners. 25 to be exact.
charging the rifle was fairly easy, still need a started but the ball rammed home with one hand, the thing I noticed is there was no boooooom and shove, more of a crack, like popping a cap and very little recoil.
accuracy was no different from other patches . patches for the most part looked like others.
So I guess my question is , all things the same ,can the slickness of the patch lube effect the boom ( velocity or resistance ) of the PRB.
I have a chrony and plan to check out a few things but not soon, just had 6" fresh snow and 20* temps .
hope I explained this well enough but it seems to me the lower felt recoil is an indication of something..
regards kevin
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Kevin, if your patch lube is all natural ingredients and works well for you - I would use it for hunting purposes only... For target shooting - I'm completely sold on a spit patch (my spit - not someone else's) :laffing
Seriously, I have found my spit to out perform anything offered on the market that I've tried over a 40+ year span... Spit works! :bl th up Not good for hunting 'cause you don't want to risk forming a rust ring where the patched ball sets in the bore - but again,,, "Spit for target shooting" - "Lube for hunting" :shake
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Much like KDubs, I have also tried "Beard Balm", and it shot very well, perhaps a shade better than some of the other concoctions I bought and paid good money for.
I do love the Coconut smell.
However it required a bit higher temperature for a proper mixing with Bees Wax.
If your Bees Wax ever starts "Smoking" you've got it too hot!
Still yet, I did manage to mix up a small bach and poured it in the the old Lyman Kake Kuter pan, and it worked great for my lubing a .458 bullet with 4 grease grouves.
I lubed it and sized it, and the lube held in the grouves just fine throught the process.
I have owned and use a Lyman Kake Kutter along with two sizers, a .456 and a .458 for about 40 plus years.
I think this Beard Balm needs a lot more research on my end, but my shop still has that well define Coconut oil smell. and that was 3 weeks ago, at least.
Heck with this Covid thing, a fella can't just go out and shoot, so he may as well sit home and experiment with different lubes and bullets.
KDubs, what I am about to tell you is NOT recommended by me or any other die hard Black Powder Shooter......But there was a time, way back when, when you are "advised" by some of the Old Timers "to load 'em until the CRACK!...much more like a modern rifle. Now I have done that with a .45 cal Flintlock and a round ball, And, Yep, the rifle cracked like a 30-30.....and that round ball is probably still going!
I was lucky, and no harm came to me or my rifle, so it was marked up as just an Experiment!
I wish you had a Chronograph when you were shooting....you may had quite a surprise on the screen, when that rifle of yours cracked. Jus'sayin
But I am emphatically against this....and it's FOR INFORMATION ONLY, Okay?
Uncle Russ....
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KDubs, what I am about to tell you is NOT recommended by me or any other die hard Black Powder Shooter......But there was a time, way back when, when you are "advised" by some of the Old Timers "to load 'em until the CRACK!...much more like a modern rifle. Now I have done that with a .45 cal Flintlock and a round ball, And, Yep, the rifle cracked like a 30-30.....and that round ball is probably still going!
I was lucky, and no harm came to me or my rifle, so it was marked up as just an Experiment!
I wish you had a Chronograph when you were shooting....you may had quite a surprise on the screen, when that rifle of yours cracked. Jus'sayin
But I am emphatically against this....and it's FOR INFORMATION ONLY, Okay?
Uncle Russ....
I agree 100% with Russ about this.
I too did the ol' "load 'em until the CRACK" experiment with a .45 flintlock, and found absolutely no advantage to it what so ever in it aiding in accuracy.
IMHO, accuracy is when you can cluster three of five shots together in one common "connecting hole" on your target from 25 yards offhand, (if most of your shooting is going to be offhand, which IMHO you can not duplicate offhand shooting from the bench)...
Chasing the sound of the "crack" of the rifle load has nothing at all to do with accuracy IMHO.
My guess is it's an old "wise" tail that began when some feller made a perfect shot down in the "holler" and the echo made it sound as if the load made a "cracking" noise - so, "load it 'till she cracks" was born...
:shake
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Thanks for info. I too spit patch at the bench and lube for hunting. Hence the freezer test.
The only thing changed was the lube. Same charge etc.
Just curious about the resistance of the PBR to the ignition
Of the powder.
I'm sure there has to be enough resistance or friction of the patch to get the optimum results.
It seemed that the beard balm was so slick the charge " spit " the ball out to easily.
Does it even matter ?? cuz I was more than happy with the results.
Wasn't over loading or chasing the crack. Just noticed the sound of the report changed relative to the change in lube?? That's it. Makes think there was much less resistance in the PRB to other lubes I've tried .
And again does it even matter.
We are headed back to 50* weather this weekend and I plan on getting the chrono out
Kevin
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Kevin, it makes no difference IMHO...
In fact, you may have stumbled onto the perfect load (to include the lubed patch) for your rifle. Run with it for a'while and see if it produces acceptable results for what you're looking for. :bl th up
Heck, as long as you ain't blowing patches, you should be good to go.
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Also, IMHO there's no such thing as too slippery...
Have you ever heard of "moose snot" - now that stuff is slippery!!! :shake
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for the most part, patch lube is a personal thing.
since all things firearms is a game of consistency, i prefer to use one lube all the time, no matter whether at the range or afield. dittos for patch material/thickness and ball diameter/weight.
slippery? not my concern - keeping the BP soft after firing is the lube goal (also a reason for blowing down the barrel).
i like a firm lube that will allow prelubing of both patch strips and ball board loads. my choice is gato feo ("ugly cat"), rubbed on and heat melted into cotton patch material weave. the result is a patch strip, or patches, that are ready to go without the need to lube before loading.
GATO FEO LUBE
by weight and double boiler melted (a pot within a pot of water, over a heat source) ...
1 part mutton/lamb tallow (dixie gun works)
1 part canning wax (gulf)
1/2 part beeswax (clean, no bee parts)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQnAcCnAOek
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Thanks all, I will update my chrono results just for fun once the temps come out of the teens.
Speaking of chronographs. Any tips ( distance from muzzle etc) on using a muzzleloader so I don't cover it in BP residue.
Kevin
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Rob , thanks for the video, just the way I like em, not too wordy and straight to the point.
Kevin
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gato feo is an Excellent black powder lube and works well for smokeless greaser cartridges as well. it's easy to make and a 2.5lb mix will last nearly forever. the ingredients are easy to acquire (lamb tallow is the toughest, but DGW now has it back in stock), and easy to double boiler melt. i pour the entire pot of it into a milk carton and then slice into "cakes" that are saved in ziplock baggies. besides working extremely well for muzzleloader fouling control, it can be prelubed for strips and patches for ball boards (you are using ball boards, aren't y'all? ;) ).
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No sir Rob, at the moment I'm using speed loaders and precut daisy ticking patches from October county ML supply.
I have the sizing chart for the boards as I plan on switching to them as well going to cut patches at the muzzle.
Really appreciate everyone's help here.
I am having a blast .
I have a shooting range in my yard so I can play with this stuff anytime I want.
Kevin
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No sir Rob, at the moment I'm using speed loaders and precut daisy ticking patches from October county ML supply.
I have the sizing chart for the boards as I plan on switching to them as well going to cut patches at the muzzle.
Really appreciate everyone's help here.
I am having a blast .
I have a shooting range in my yard so I can play with this stuff anytime I want.
Kevin
ain't all this stuff FUN?! ;D
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Thanks all, I will update my chronic results just for fun once the temps come out of the teens.
Speaking of chronographs. Any tips ( distance from muzzle etc) on using a muzzleloader so I don't cover it in BP residue.
Kevin
Personally, I set-up about 5 "paces" from the bench, where I can see both the target and the Chronograph Screens, Some, at least one of us even have a down-range Chrony and I think one of those would be the Cat's Meow for Muzzleloading, but such a nice Chrony is only on my bucket list, and my old one will have to work for a while longer.
BTW: Welcome to the TMA!
Refreshing to have a new shooter that ain't afraid to safely open the envelope a little bit.
Uncle Russ....
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Thanks uncle, hoping I'll meet some of y'all one day or another.
Usually use my chrono for my arrow tuning , just was concerned the muzzle blast might be too much for it. Compared to a smokeless firearm.
I love leaning new stuff and this is right up my alley.
My wife thinks I'll be running around in buckskins in no time.
I tend to get way deep into stuff like this ..
Kevin
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Making Gato Feo ....
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I like it.
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:hairy
Buckskins ain't the worse thing! They're a bit spendy nowadays, but other than that theyre great to wear in the woods and at voos.
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well if I was going to wear bucks I'd probably learn to process the skins myself and then my wife and I would try to make them.
I've made plains style quivers, haversacks and various accoutrements. fairly handy when I want to be.
I picture myself as more of a Capote and leggins kinda guy.
My fathers (RIP 1995) was a fan of Rogers Rangers and that whole time period. so eventually I'll be looking into a front stuffer and clothing etc related to them.
kevin
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rogers rangers was during the beginnings of the conflict period - the seven years war, or french & indian war. the weapon of choice for most military was the musket/smoothbore, due to its faster rate of fire as being less finicky than rifled guns for reloads without fouling control. captain/major robert rogers was in himself a bit of an interesting character and an enigma of sorts.
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When I was in the usaf , I was station in Plattsburgh NY
On lake Champlain.
Toured fort ticonderoga, fort William henry. Lake George. Really enjoyed all of the history and reenactments.
surprises me it this long for me to get into muzzleloaders.
By the way I am really glad I joined TMA.
Great bunch here.
RobD ,Part of the reason for joining was the fact you and I belong to the same trad bowhunting site ( I go by kevsuperg over there) anyways you're a Mod over there and I always like the way you conduct yourself so here I am.
Kevin
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lots of birth-of-a-nation history abounds in the nor'east, as expected since this was the port of entry into the new world, it's where our nation began, it's our roots, it's our affirmation of personal freedoms and liberties as defined in our constitution and bill of rights. and then there's the nor'east of today. ack.
thanx for coming over here, kevin, your posts are most appreciated, sir.
r.
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But there was a time, way back when, when you are "advised" by some of the Old Timers "to load 'em until the CRACK!...much more like a modern rifle. Now I have done that with a .45 cal Flintlock and a round ball, And, Yep, the rifle cracked like a 30-30.....and that round ball is probably still going!
What I understand is that the "crack" is caused by the ball breaking the sound barrier, like the sonic boom that fighter jets make. The problem here is that it causes the ball's flight to become erratic and accuracy goes down. Unless of course, you dimple the ball like a golf ball, but that's been covered in previous posts.... :laffing
Oh, and I further understand that no less a person than George Washington wore "Indian dress", i.e. breech clout, moccasins and leggings when in battle, at least before he became top dog of the Continental Army.
~Kees~
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well the weather finally improved and I was able get out for a little shooting. play with the chrono.
the .54 came with F/O sights, the original sights in a bag, but since I wanted to shoot a few different patch/powder combos the fiber optics stayed on for today but I have changed them out since.
all the shots hit off to the right at 25yds, but in a 3" ish circle) regardless of any combo I tried.
all shots with .530 ball and pyrodex R/S ( trying to shoot up my supply then on to BP) various charges from 70-100.
patches from commercial prelubed .010, were all destroyed.
.015 t/c prelubed ( bore butter i assume) .018 mattress ticking beard balm could have been shot again , .018 MT with coconut lube. destroyed
seems the beard balm and the t/c prelubed patch held up best.
The beard balm with 90gr chrono'd 1620 fps ( top 3 ) and the same charge with .010 patch only reached 1470.
100gr with a .010 patch came in at 1653 fps . slowest FPS was 70gr with .010 patch. 1350.
I know not scientific at all and probably amounts to not much but it was nice to get out an shoot.
my next session will be to 1st sight in the original sights , which by the way I noticed the FO front sight was off left center to the barrel and the original metal sight lines nicely to the edges of the flats so that's why I was off to the right I figure.
It would seem to me that as far as grouping goes the 90gr beard balm was the best so far with a .018 patch. tight, need a starter and 2 hands to seat.
The .010 patches load with a push of the thumb and 1 hand ramming, but the obvious gas blow by results in slower MV. How much does that matter in hunting terms.
so still learning. thoughts, criticisms, tips welcomed.
kevin
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report back when you've done testing with the iron sights and the holy black (hopefully 3f?). for 25 yards benched, i'd start off with 50 grains and a .015" (or so) patch. patch lube will matter, too, so try all ya got. personally, i don't get wrapped up too much with how fired patches look, it's consistent accurate results that matter most for me. see what worx best, yer gettin' there! :bl th up
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Rob, ya say 3f huh, my pyro is 2f equiv.
what's the advantage.
Buffalo arms is about 30mins from here, that's my dealer for the black stuff. no shipping needed. probably pick up some soon.
should I try 2f and 3f or should I … I don't know, I'm following your lead. :yessir:
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It's all good, to each their own. My perspective on trad MLs is typically a bit (or a lot) different than others.
I use Swiss 3F for both pan and tube. One horn satisfies both. I've tried many different granulation and brand powders and find Swiss in 3F working best for all the flintlocks I've ever had (.32 to .62). I like making horns and bags and knives and what not ...
(https://i.imgur.com/uhlVTcb.jpg)
I prefer easy loading ("loose loads") where the patched ball is thumb seated, pushed down with a brass insert i added to my patch knife, then a relatively easy push of the rod, ending in a few bounces.
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My offhand shooter's bag and accoutrements ...
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The knife I made using a Green River 6" "rifleman's" blade ...
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Notice the brass ball seater I inlaid into the handle ...
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Nice stuff, I'll get to that stage eventually.
Probably start sewing and carving around the time the fat man comes to visit next month.
There will a Good 3 months of cold n snow atleast , should be able to accomplish something.
Kevin