Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Shooting Traditional Firearms and Weapons => General Interest => Topic started by: KDubs on October 29, 2020, 10:06:26 AM
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Re: New Green Mountain Roundball Barrel Test
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2019, 08:35:16 AM »
Quote from: Ohio Joe on October 03, 2019, 07:41:04 PM
I was just reading your patches and I believe that your gasses are blowing by your patches at those clover leaf "v" in the patch. That's what I'm seeing. :shake
There's an easy way to find out... Cut 3 or 5 (1.25 x 1.25) square patches, lube 'em or spit patch 'em, and see if they show signs of gasses escaping around the ball.
I agree with you Joe, This is very plausible, These are Short Patches (40-49) I have felt that a Shorter patch would give better accuracy? I didn’t like that a longer Patch Grabbed my Short starter, so i started experimenting with Shorter patches, Accuracy has been REALLY Good :bl th up the downside with These Shorter Patches is they are kind of Pain to get Centered. These Particular Patches are that “Flower pedal” Cut design from October Country, Beings these are already Short, The V Notch of the Pedals might be where the Problem is?
I have some Larger unlubed .50-59 .018 Blue Stripe Ticking, I will lube some of them up and See what happens? I also plan to accuracy test Cutting Patches at the Muzzle. Everything i do revolves around accuracy, my enjoyment comes from seeing just how Accurate i can get my Rifles, I test every variable i can think of. It will be interesting to See if a larger Cut Patch stops the Problem i had yesterday
:wave I have been trying to learn and diagnose patch issues myself. this post above from awhile back was exactly what I needed as I too use the daisy style patches and experienced the same results.
the eagerness of the folks on this site , willing to help someone with straight forward answers ,not trying to sway me to one style or product. love it.
now I too have been to the fabric store with my micrometer, picked up some blue stripe mattress ticking .018 and I'm off to play with that.
Thanks everyone for this site, keep posting and shooting :yessir:
kevin
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:hairy :hairy :hairy
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:hairy :hairy :hairy
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Checking fired patches is kinda important.
Well, that is, unless the consistent accuracy is excellent shot after shot ... then I don't care what the used patches have to show me.
:laffing :wave :*:
r.
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May I suggest that you get in contact with Idaholewis? He's somewhere in Northern Idaho, and very keen on accuracy. Also on long range shooting.
Quite a few of us don't use precut patches, but cut them at the muzzle. I don't use a short starter, but the side of my knife handle to push the ball down even with the muzzle. Then slice across the muzzle to cut the patch, hold the ramrod 6" or so from the end and use it to start the ball down the bore. Move the hands a foot or so up, push the ball down and repeat until it is seated on the powder.
Lots of folks then throw the rod down on the ball several times until the powder is packed enough that the RR bounces up a bit. I've tried that but the only rod I've broken happened doing that. Ned Roberts made a point of saying not to bounce the rod so I quit it. I don't see any change in accuracy, but then I'm not steady enough to see the difference anymore. :laffing
~Kees~
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... Lots of folks then throw the rod down on the ball several times until the powder is packed enough that the RR bounces up a bit. I've tried that but the only rod I've broken happened doing that. Ned Roberts made a point of saying not to bounce the rod so I quit it. I don't see any change in accuracy, but then I'm not steady enough to see the difference anymore. :laffing
~Kees~
Then probably yer rod was not a good one and breaking on bouncing saved the possibility of it breaking off in yer hand. I only use split pignut hickory rods that i make (LOT of work!) or buy (lazy me :) ), where the grain runs parallel and full length of the rod, no run offs.
Never broke a rod in, oh, 50 years or so, and "bouncing the rod" insures for me that there is no air space 'tween the powder and patched ball. This can happen if yer loading without much fouling control, if any, and the BP crud gets hard, which is the secondary reason for "blowing down the barrel" immediately after a shot is taken (keep the BP soft, like blow tubing a BPCR gun 'tween shots).
Now, to be fair, if the rod is marked for the specific charge and patch and ball just loaded, watching that mark meet the muzzle is a fair indicator that the powder is kissing the patched ball. Just don't change that load. That's too much thinking for me and it's much faster to see the rod trampoline, knowing that there is no air space inside the tube that can cause a barrel bulge, or worse. :scared:
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Kees,
I bounce my ramrod when it stops short of my load mark on it, and that's usually the only time I do.
However, I will admit in certain conditions such as hot weather shooting I find myself bouncing that RR more often then not.
Can't say as I've ever broke one bouncing it. I expect it would be a flaw in the rod itself when it broke on you.
:shake
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KDubs,
For as long as I can remember I've been using 1.25" round patches in .45 caliber through .54. an one inch round patches in my .40 caliber rifles. Sometimes I cut at the muzzle... But mostly I load from loading blocks and this has served me well over the years.
Personally, I see no advantage what so ever in the "Flower pedal" patch other then material has been removed to make loading easier / thereby IMHO weakening the patch at the base of those "V" cuts that result in escaping gasses...
Believe it or not, when target shooting - regardless if I'm using a lubed patch or not - that patch is going to get spit, and it's a win win deal when loading a tight patch-n-ball combination... :shake
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Now I wanna know how to make split pignut "hickry" ramrods, thanks RobD, thanks a lot :bl th up
I have found when I use a brass range rod with a T handle I feel the ball seat or possibly compress the powder, sometimes I feel I'm pressing to hard. sorta crunch's
usually I will use my wood RR to simulate hunting situations, practice with what I'll use. I can only push so hard, so I think I'm more consistent. I'll try bouncing.
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I'll second Joe's post. :shake
A full well lubed patch, cut at the muzzle or ball board, and a tight load have proven to offer the best consistent accuracy for almost all shooters.
I've seen trad ML target shooters load so tight that they'll use a full and heavy brass rod, and even a mallet to drive the patched ball home. And dang it, the results are amazingly accurate out to 50 yards and well beyond!
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I am a firm believer in a brass ramrod. I am not a believer in bouncing the undergun rod. It is showey when you bounce the rod out of the barrel, but so what?
RE: Idaho Lewis, I believe he lives in Sandpoint, pretty close to you, Kevin. I think he mentioned that he works part time at the gun shop that specializes in BPCR, Sorry I cannot recall the name.
John (Bigsmoke)
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As a student of history, and one who has a great fondness for all things (clothing, arms, and accoutrements) connected to traditional muzzleloading,.... I try my best to emulate those who used muzzleloaders to feed their families and counted on such arms for their daily survival.
I also count on their descriptions from the past, as being the very best guide as to how to load and shoot these fine arms. :bl th up
James Audubon, c1810, describing his host preparing to go raccoon hunting:
"… He blows through his rifle to ascertain that it is clear, examines his flint, and thrusts a feather into the touch-hole. To a leathern bag swung at his side is attached a powder-horn; his sheath-knife is there also; below hangs a narrow strip of homespun linen. He takes from his bag a bullet, pulls with his teeth the wooden stopper from his powder-horn, lays the ball in one hand, and with the other pours the powder upon it until it is just overtopped. Raising the horn to his mouth, he again closes it with the stopper, and restores it to its place. He introduces the powder into the tube; springs the box of his gun, greases the "patch" over with some melted tallow, or damps it; then places it on the honey-combed muzzle of his piece. The bullet is placed on the patch over the bore, and pressed with the handle of the knife, which now trims the edge of the linen. The elastic hickory rod, held with both hands, smoothly pushes the ball to its bed; once, twice, thrice has it rebounded. The rifle leaps as it were into the hunters arms, the feather is drawn from the touch-hole, the powder fills the pan, which is closed. “Now I’m ready,” cries the woodsman….
Journals, Vol. 2, (1972 reprint), page 492.
Notice this particular "hunter" used the palm of his hand to measure his powder charge, and bounced his ramrod on the powder charge 3 times. :bl th up
A LOT of valuable information can be garnered from such quotes,.... for anyone interested in researching history. :bl th up :) :*:
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Very interesting
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As a student of history, and one who has a great fondness for all things (clothing, arms, and accoutrements) connected to traditional muzzleloading,.... I try my best to emulate those who used muzzleloaders to feed their families and counted on such arms for their daily survival.
I also count on their descriptions from the past, as being the very best guide as to how to load and shoot these fine arms. :bl th up
James Audubon, c1810, describing his host preparing to go raccoon hunting:
"… He blows through his rifle to ascertain that it is clear, examines his flint, and thrusts a feather into the touch-hole. To a leathern bag swung at his side is attached a powder-horn; his sheath-knife is there also; below hangs a narrow strip of homespun linen. He takes from his bag a bullet, pulls with his teeth the wooden stopper from his powder-horn, lays the ball in one hand, and with the other pours the powder upon it until it is just overtopped. Raising the horn to his mouth, he again closes it with the stopper, and restores it to its place. He introduces the powder into the tube; springs the box of his gun, greases the "patch" over with some melted tallow, or damps it; then places it on the honey-combed muzzle of his piece. The bullet is placed on the patch over the bore, and pressed with the handle of the knife, which now trims the edge of the linen. The elastic hickory rod, held with both hands, smoothly pushes the ball to its bed; once, twice, thrice has it rebounded. The rifle leaps as it were into the hunters arms, the feather is drawn from the touch-hole, the powder fills the pan, which is closed. “Now I’m ready,” cries the woodsman….
Journals, Vol. 2, (1972 reprint), page 492.
Notice this particular "hunter" used the palm of his hand to measure his powder charge, and bounced his ramrod on the powder charge 3 times. :bl th up
A LOT of valuable information can be garnered from such quotes,.... for anyone interested in researching history. :bl th up :) :*:
Aye, sir. Them old folks knew a thing or three. :bl th up :bl th up :wave :*:
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Aye, sir. Them old folks knew a thing or three. :bl th up :bl th up :wave :*:
They certainly did,.... to them, shooting these muzzleloaders wasn't just a "hobby". :hairy :)
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As a student of history, and one who has a great fondness for all things (clothing, arms, and accoutrements) connected to traditional muzzleloading,.... I try my best to emulate those who used muzzleloaders to feed their families and counted on such arms for their daily survival.
I also count on their descriptions from the past, as being the very best guide as to how to load and shoot these fine arms. :bl th up
James Audubon, c1810, describing his host preparing to go raccoon hunting:
"… He blows through his rifle to ascertain that it is clear, examines his flint, and thrusts a feather into the touch-hole. To a leathern bag swung at his side is attached a powder-horn; his sheath-knife is there also; below hangs a narrow strip of homespun linen. He takes from his bag a bullet, pulls with his teeth the wooden stopper from his powder-horn, lays the ball in one hand, and with the other pours the powder upon it until it is just overtopped. Raising the horn to his mouth, he again closes it with the stopper, and restores it to its place. He introduces the powder into the tube; springs the box of his gun, greases the "patch" over with some melted tallow, or damps it; then places it on the honey-combed muzzle of his piece. The bullet is placed on the patch over the bore, and pressed with the handle of the knife, which now trims the edge of the linen. The elastic hickory rod, held with both hands, smoothly pushes the ball to its bed; once, twice, thrice has it rebounded. The rifle leaps as it were into the hunters arms, the feather is drawn from the touch-hole, the powder fills the pan, which is closed. “Now I’m ready,” cries the woodsman….
Journals, Vol. 2, (1972 reprint), page 492.
Notice this particular "hunter" used the palm of his hand to measure his powder charge, and bounced his ramrod on the powder charge 3 times. :bl th up
A LOT of valuable information can be garnered from such quotes,.... for anyone interested in researching history. :bl th up :) :*:
Indeed there can be! :bl th up
If anyone is interested, the word & meaning of "elastic" (when he refers to the Hickory Ramrod) has been around since; (Origin of elastic. 1645–55) according to a word search,,, so remember, a Hickory Ramrod is always the best way to go.
Great stuff Rondo!!! :hairy
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I just had a thought about the above loading technique of old;
We read accounts of "cover the ball with powder in your palm" then pour the powder down the bore from your palm...
This got me to thinking about "coned muzzles"
Today we think of a coned muzzle as a path to loading an easy fitting patched ball down the muzzle without a "short starter" - but what if in fact, the purpose of a "coned" muzzle has always been for the purpose of dropping the powder into the muzzle from your palm (the cone of the muzzle acting as a funnel)?
The obvious "by product" of the coned barrel (dropping powder into the bore from your palm was a funnel effect,,, and it was found that it also made the patched ball load easier...
Something to ponder (so to speak)...
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I think yer right on the money, Joe.
This is the precise reason for the blunderbuss - fast loads whilst bouncing around on a stagecoach.
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I think yer right on the money, Joe.
This is the precise reason for the blunderbuss - fast loads whilst bouncing around on a stagecoach.
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:hairy :hairy
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The elastic hickory rod, held with both hands, smoothly pushes the ball to its bed; once, twice, thrice has it rebounded. The rifle leaps as it were into the hunters arms, the feather is drawn from the touch-hole, the powder fills the pan, which is closed. “Now I’m ready,” cries the woodsman….
It would appear that he doesn't prime the pan, but instead the powder flows through the touch hole. Interesting! I would expect that, after packing the powder by bouncing the ram rod, it would be consolidated enough not to dribble out. It also would seem that the vent is large enough to allow a significant amount of powder to flow through.
I seem to remember reading that the British did somewhat the same with the Brown Bess, that the gun butt was bounced on the ground after powder was poured down the barrel, which allowed enough to flow through the vent to prime the piece. Then the ball was rammed home. Don't ask me where I read this; it comes from the dim recesses of past memories.
~Kees~
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Kees, IMHO I believe you're on the money with the "self priming" charge.
Whether everyone did it, or just some did it remains unknown - but if one lived in hostile country where they were going to need to reload fast (such as the military of the time) it makes sense to have a "self priming pan from the charge dumped down the bore.
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Kees, IMHO I believe you're on the money with the "self priming" charge.
Whether everyone did it, or just some did it remains unknown - but if one lived in hostile country where they were going to need to reload fast (such as the military of the time) it makes sense to have a "self priming pan from the charge dumped down the bore.
I'm sure Louis Wetzel's rifle was self-priming,.... can you imagine trying to load your rifle at a full out run and trying to prime your pan the conventional way?
"Death Wind" knew what he was doin'. :hairy
At a full run, Louis could dump some powder down the bore, grab a ball and drop it down the bore, hit the butt of his rifle on the ground (to "settle" the load), all without breaking stride,... he'd then whirl around and shoot the guy chasing him. :bl th up
Same goes for the "buffalo runners",.... who were known for loading and shooting buffalo from horseback at a full gallop.
A lot can be said for the convenience of having a gun with an oversized touch hole that is "self priming". :bl th up
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Just saw this and though WT... I started out, long, long ago in PA hunting that BP season with a T/C flinter and RB...
Once at the range, after reading a Siefried (?) article on line, I drilled out my "touch hole liner a skosh" and on one shot, I got to jabberin with another shooter and forgot to prime the pan...
When I touched the Go Trigger, it Went OFF quick like usual...
I'd replaced the T/C frizzen with a Lyman and used Knapped flints but it was interesting, cause in PA (at that time) a Flinter was NOT considered "LOADED" till the pan was charged...
From then on, I used a feather quill in the touch hole and made sure on the trip to my hunting grounds in the dark, that the gun muzzle was pointed rearward in the covered truck bed, and never cocked...but a main charge and ball inserted at home in good light, just cause I no longer trusted it was SAFE to rely on a pan charge to cause ignition...
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somewhat related, spit ballin' on the go ...
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I've seen that picture many times but it was usually in defense of "blowing down the tube" not a form of spit balling...
Excellent input! ;)
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Just saw this and though WT... I started out, long, long ago in PA hunting that BP season with a T/C flinter and RB...
Once at the range, after reading a Siefried (?) article on line, I drilled out my "touch hole liner a skosh" and on one shot, I got to jabberin with another shooter and forgot to prime the pan...
When I touched the Go Trigger, it Went OFF quick like usual...
I'd replaced the T/C frizzen with a Lyman and used Knapped flints but it was interesting, cause in PA (at that time) a Flinter was NOT considered "LOADED" till the pan was charged...
From then on, I used a feather quill in the touch hole and made sure on the trip to my hunting grounds in the dark, that the gun muzzle was pointed rearward in the covered truck bed, and never cocked...but a main charge and ball inserted at home in good light, just cause I no longer trusted it was SAFE to rely on a pan charge to cause ignition...
A proper fitting "hammer stall" made from leather of the proper thickness is great insurance against an accidental firing,.... (I've even seen hammer stalls with brass facings. :bl th up)
Why anyone would ever transport a rifle in the "cocked" position (loaded or unloaded) is beyond my comprehension.
Having said that,... I have seen some folks hang their muzzleloader on the wall with the gun's "cock" pulled all the way back to the firing position which never made sense to me, as all it does is put needless stress on the gun's mainspring over extended periods of time.
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Just saw this and though WT... I started out, long, long ago in PA hunting that BP season with a T/C flinter and RB...
Once at the range, after reading a Siefried (?) article on line, I drilled out my "touch hole liner a skosh" and on one shot, I got to jabberin with another shooter and forgot to prime the pan...
When I touched the Go Trigger, it Went OFF quick like usual...
I'd replaced the T/C frizzen with a Lyman and used Knapped flints but it was interesting, cause in PA (at that time) a Flinter was NOT considered "LOADED" till the pan was charged...
From then on, I used a feather quill in the touch hole and made sure on the trip to my hunting grounds in the dark, that the gun muzzle was pointed rearward in the covered truck bed, and never cocked...but a main charge and ball inserted at home in good light, just cause I no longer trusted it was SAFE to rely on a pan charge to cause ignition...
A proper fitting "hammer stall" made from leather of the proper thickness is great insurance against an accidental firing,.... (I've even seen hammer stalls with brass facings. :bl th up)
Why anyone would ever transport a rifle in the "cocked" position (loaded or unloaded) is beyond my comprehension.
Having said that,... I have seen some folks hang their muzzleloader on the wall with the gun's "cock" pulled all the way back to the firing position which never made sense to me, as all it does is put needless stress on the gun's mainspring over extended periods of time.
Agree completely, Rondo! :bl th up
Somewhere at one time or another I read of the practice of loading your "piece" (flintlock) after installing a feather into the touch hole, and it didn't say but I assumed they would either close their pan frizzen on top that feather (or would leave the pan open with the cock down {flint on the feather} - as later on the command of, "prime your piece's" would be given to the men.
This tells me that there was awareness of potential spring stress being averted by doing the above mentioned, and it doesn't take long to pull a feather and prime your pan once the habit is "installed" into ones memory and training... It was probably a military exercise of the times I would guess (which could have easily spilled over to the volunteer Militia.
Hope I got all the above said right... :shake
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unlike most of today, touch holes were unlined, and only lined if they burned out too large over time. the inside of the touch hole was coned, with a tool such as this ...
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... which placed chamber powder darned close to the pan, probably closer than any lined touch hole.
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Nice diagram Rob! :bl th up
You know, this is going to call for a test I've never done before;
With the Cock at half cock - close the pan - drop in the charge - tap the butt on the ground once - load the patched ball - and see what results I get without throwing a prime charge in the pan... May be very educational. :bl th up
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Ohio has the rule that the gun is unloaded if the prime is out of the pan, or the cap off the nipple. I have had powder dribble into the pan when driving from one hunting spot to another, with the rifle "unloaded" by dumping out the prime. That happened only once, after which I made sure the rifle was laid down with the lock up. Touch hole was drilled out to 1/16", no larger, and the load was Fffg.
~Kees~
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A fellow I knew in North Idaho who had little regard for himself learned the hard way that it is a bad policy to carry the rifle with the hammer pulled all the way back.
Seems like one night he was going to grab his rifle off the rack on the back window of his pick up. Of course, it was loaded and the nipple was capped and the hammer was in the full cock position. Well now, he reached into the truck, grabbed a hold of the barrel and gave it a tug. Well, the trigger was set off by the loop of the rack, it went boom and a .490 ball traveled up the length of his arm, shattering the wrist, elbow and shoulder, and coming to rest right on his spine. Fortunately the ball was about out of gas by the time it reached the spine, so no damage done there. But the arm was toast and the surgeon relieved him of it.
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Wooooow!
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Back on page 2 Rollin quoted me and then added something about full cock...
I surely hope that nobody interpreted I traveled that way or ever left the gun on full cock..
I did have it go "Off" without pan powder once and have to surmise that the Ross Siefried altered touch hole liner allowe some Kernels of 3F to dribble thru but that was at the range under controlled conditions...
But it freaked me enough that though I always did the main charge and PRB down the tube, I decided to also keep the gun pointed toward the tailgate and not the cockpit albet, the gun was snuggled in a case un- cocked but I opted to put a quill in the touch hole to prevent any powder coming out or a spark going in.. I hope that was clear...Just my way of being super careful... :bigsmile: :wave
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Back on page 2 Rollin quoted me and then added something about full cock...
I surely hope that nobody interpreted I traveled that way or ever left the gun on full cock..
I did have it go "Off" without pan powder once and have to surmise that the Ross Siefried altered touch hole liner allowe some Kernels of 3F to dribble thru but that was at the range under controlled conditions...
But it freaked me enough that though I always did the main charge and PRB down the tube, I decided to also keep the gun pointed toward the tailgate and not the cockpit albet, the gun was snuggled in a case un- cocked but I opted to put a quill in the touch hole to prevent any powder coming out or a spark going in.. I hope that was clear...Just my way of being super careful... :bigsmile: :wave
I'm sorry for any confusion I may have caused with what I said,..... I was simply expanding on your comment when you said "From then on, I used a feather quill in the touch hole and made sure on the trip to my hunting grounds in the dark, that the gun muzzle was pointed rearward in the covered truck bed, and never cocked..." :hairy
Not that you transported your muzzleloader "on full cock". :hairy :shake
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Thanks Rolinb,
To add to the conversation for newbies, or such, I had another gun, (also a T/C Pos) that I'd reamed out the touch hole liner and on loading loose powder and firing it went Pffft- small boom... I KNEW something was amiss.
That POS gun had a removable breech plug while it was still a flinter, and I took it apart, checked the bbl for obstruction and it was clear... Then standing in ankle deep snow I noticed where I'd loaded the last shot and rammed home the patched ball there was a goodly bit of loose powder lying on top of the snow...
Mystery solved: when I dumped in the main charge and started to ram home the greased patched ball the ball exerted enough pressure on air in the tube (bbl) to push out a goodly amount of the powder onto the snow...w/o snow, I'd never have known, so while it fired, it was a super light charge and fortunately it cleared the bbl...
Now, with the GPR and ANTE chamber of smaller diameter I may still have had an issue as the ball may not have been sitting on the powder and left an air gap... luckily the T/C Firestorm POS with removable breech plug wasn't built with an ante chamber so it didn't turn into a bomb but it sure made me hinky from there on... At that point, I used the feather quill in the touch hole to both load and transport if main charge was in the gun...
Thanks for clarifying rolin b and one can never be too cautious when handling firearms--- they are perfectly safe when all procedures are followed to a "T" but get sloppy nd they can and will bite the hand that feeds them... :(