Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Traditional Firearms => Flintlock Long Guns => Topic started by: RobD on November 14, 2020, 09:00:13 PM
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I think I finally found a smoothbore that might work out well ... or not. Won't know until late next week when the popper arrives.
42" Rice .62 bbl, L&R Trade lock, maple stock w/aqua fortis stain, some wood carvings, and mostly iron furniture. It's been fired a few dozen times, so I'll need to take it all apart, pull the breech plug and see what's inside. The seller is the builder and he used a slotted touch hole liner, so that's gotta get pulled and drilled and tapped for a Chambers White Lightning. There are some other things that I can see need fixin', but this might be a keeper ... or not. ;)
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Good looking smoke pole! Look forward to your report on this, Rob! :hairy
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Was that the one on the ALR forum?
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Was that the one on the ALR forum?
It might be judging from the brass screws in the triggerguard. :hairy
It might quite possibly turn out to be a great shooter. :applaud :hairy
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Yes, that very one off the ALR classifieds.
I've still got some doubts about it, but it comes with a few days approval and sent back on my dime, as usual.
And yes - those brass trigger guard screws are on my "got to go!" list. 8)
r.
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Yes, that very one off the ALR classifieds.
I've still got some doubts about it, but it comes with a few days approval and sent back on my dime, as usual.
And yes - those brass trigger guard screws are on my "got to go!" list. 8)
r.
Rob, having not read the building specs on this new long gun coming your way,,, are those actually soft "brass" screws on the trigger guard -or- brass plated screws? Just wondering? I've used "brass plated" screws on some of my builds after pinning the trigger guard to the stock (probably over-kill) - and it looks like that trigger guard on that new smoothy coming your way has at least 4 screws in that trigger guard, and the heads must be protruding out on the guard (it looks like)?
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Yes, that very one off the ALR classifieds.
I've still got some doubts about it, but it comes with a few days approval and sent back on my dime, as usual.
And yes - those brass trigger guard screws are on my "got to go!" list. 8)
r.
Rob, having not read the building specs on this new long gun coming your way,,, are those actually soft "brass" screws on the trigger guard -or- brass plated screws? Just wondering? I've used "brass plated" screws on some of my builds after pinning the trigger guard to the stock (probably over-kill) - and it looks like that trigger guard on that new smoothy coming your way has at least 4 screws in that trigger guard, and the heads must be protruding out on the guard (it looks like)?
I don't know of what metal those brass colored screws are, but they've got to go because they're Phillips heads instead of slotted. I have a good assortment of round head slotted iron wood screws that I can torch-blue the heads for a better look and fit for the period of this fowler. That just leaves the pipes, which appear to be rolled sheet brass, and if so I'll leave them as is because many a gun of the 18th and 18th centuries were repaired, and even built, with whatever was on hand. The architecture of the stock, furniture and lock could easily allow this fowler to have been birthed anywhere from the early 1700's all the way to the early 1800's.
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Okay,,, I did not know they were Phillips head screws...
After seeing a bigger picture of them - the brass screws look a bit out of place on an iron trigger-guard. The butt-plate screws appear to be slotted.
Wonder why the builder went to all the trouble of keeping things within a "period correct" build and finishing - then skimped on the screws?
I bet you're going to have some good fun with this smoke pole once you get it to the Range. :hairy
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There are a number things that had my head scratching about both the fowler and the builder, which is why I paid via PayPal and included the PayPal fee.
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The fowler arrived on Thursday and had only time to look it over. The carvings are really excellent ... I mean professional artist quality Excellent. As to the overall build, it's at least somewhat lacking judging by the exterior. No time to begin the disassembly, so I let it go until this past Sunday. In the meanwhile, I built a pair of proper length tapered ramrods, with brass ferrules on both ends.
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There's one bolt holding on the lock and it was tight but no big deal using a gunsmith screwdriver. About 1/3rd of the lock internals were rusted, meaning it was never removed and cleaned after shooting. There were 2 through-bolt holes, meaning he missed on the first attempt. I spritzed the entire lock with pb-blaster to loosen the rust and left it soaking for a day and it looks near new now.
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I went to tap out barrel lug pin and for some reason it hung up internally on the lug. Tapped it out the other way and found that a brad was used and it's head was never clipped off. The tang bolt came out easily and the barrel released. Now here's were it gets a little interesting. A few days ago i asked why there was no front sight on the bbl and was told there no the means to solder on a front sight. I countered with, how then were the lugs attached to the forward round of the OTR bbl? However, the lugs on the bbl appear to be all be soldered, even the one on the octagon part (rather than dovetail it in!).
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I pulled the breech plug and it was in there Tight, but no match for the Rice wrench and a 3ft black pipe for leverage. It's a standard classic flat faced plug and it was Corroded, never cleaned. Dittos for the chamber. I spritzed the bbl innards with pb-blaster and let it soak, then went to push a wd-40 soaked patch in from the breech end and it wouldn't go through - the touch hole liner is sticking 1/16" into the chamber. geez.
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I couldn't unscrew the touch hole liner because it was never fully homed, just filed it flush to the barrel which lowered the liner's screwdriver slot and it had no purchase. I had to grind a carbide wheel down to 3/8" in order to deepen the slot for a proper screwdriver removal. The bbl got tiny dings at the slot ends but no big deal as it's a 1/4x28 liner and I'll drill it out for a 5/16x32 Chambers White Lightning (the Best touch hole liner, IMHO).
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I pulled off the trigger guard and the iron screws used were a good 2" long! ACK! So wrong in every way imaginable. They'll all get replaced. There is no side plate, which is actually a good thing, i'll order out a side plate along with a nickel front sight.
The builder a master carver, no question, but lacks in traditional muzzleloader construction. On the other hand, I could care less about wood carvings and I'm far more into gun function, not art adornments - the gun itself is the art for me. I knew there was gonna be work to do, and glad it's not all that bad and relatively easy for me to accomplish. If it wasn't, i'd return it. But as is, it will be worth more than the $1k i paid when i'm finished with it. Life is still good. :*:
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Rob,
Keep us posted on your repairs! Are you leaving the lugs soldered or are you going to dovetail them in? Also, from the picture of the lug, it doesn't appear to have the hole elongated to permit swelling of the stock???
Thanks for bringing us along!
Rodd
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Soldered lugs are fine, and they can only be soldered on the barrel round.
Yes, the lug pin holes need to be slotted and not just holes.
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Enjoying this a lot.
Sounds like you've rebuilt a gun or two.
Kevin.
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Those long trigger guard screws might be the reason your ramrod was too short. ::)
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Good thing you rescued this smoothy when you did, Rob. :hairy
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Those long trigger guard screws might be the reason your ramrod was too short. ::)
No, not at all. The supplied ramrod fits just fine, though it only has one end with a brass ferrule. I prefer both ends with a ferrule, where the tapered inner end is what I use for ramming - up out of the pipes, down the tube, up out of the tube, back down the pipes - this eliminates the the typically wasteful "baton twirling" of ramrods during the loading procedure.
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A stand of original half and full stocked flintlock smoothbore fowlers
Feltwad
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Don't git much better'n that! :bl th up
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Some fine looking pieces there. That might be the most unusual butt stock I've ever seen on that bottom one. Any chance of getting close-ups and details?
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Some fine looking pieces there. That might be the most unusual butt stock I've ever seen on that bottom one. Any chance of getting close-ups and details?
Enclosed are images has requested
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Dutch made?
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Thanks Feltwad, that certainly is unique.
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Dutch made?
No I have always believed it to be Spanish but not a miqulete
Feltwad
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Forging ahead with the fowler, decided to hold off installing the White Lightning liner and had a 1/4x28 liner handy. I Nikal (superb hi-temp anti-seize) lubed the breech plug and homed it, then Nikal lubed and screwed in the touch hole liner, then drilled its hole to .060".
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To properly set up the front sight, I flipped bbl over on a dead straight surface (Corian kitchen counter top), put a file on top of a piece of paper, set the file under the bbl near the muzzle and moved the paper and file back and forth a few times. The resulting bbl file mark is dead center and will be used to align the sight during soldering.
While the bbl was out of the stock I wicked in water thin CYA to the barrel channel and the lock mortise. This both seals the wood and hardens it at the same time.
I put back the bbl and lock, polished up the brass side plate that just arrived, along with the nickel-silver front sight, but forgot to order another lock bolt as the original is 1/16" too short and only a few threads capture the lock. So, off with the side plate for now.
The nickel-silver sight was well rusted, so after cleaning if off with an emery board I put some 600 grit production paper over the bbl and pushed the sight base over the paper to both clean it up and conform to the bbl's radius. After adding soft silver solder to its base, I secured the sight with some wire and hit it with the propane torch.
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Swapped the trigger guard screws for some iron screws that I modified on the grinder ...
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Getting there ... time for a test run.
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Lookin' good Rob! :applaud :hairy
How do you like that soft silver solder (I've never used it)?
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For me, not lookin' good, lookin' just okay, lotsa things about the gun aren't my kinda "right", but I knew that before buying it. It'll make for a gun I can shoot whilst I get my act together and build another kit gun. Kibler sez he'll be introducing a fowler come next year, and that might be up my ML kit building alley ;D
The soft silver solder went pretty easy. I did some tests on cut off round bbl stubs I had, soldering some folded brass sheet sights I made for testing. Basically, it's almost no different than most any soldering - clean both parts, apply the paste solder (a mix of flux and metal) to both parts, smoosh the parts together and pickup any excess paste, clamp the parts (I just wired them together), apply heat to the bbl and not directly to the sight, when the paste turns silver it's done.
Another way I'd seen is to clean both part mating surfaces, clamp, apply the solder paste all around the perimeter of the part to be soldered, then apply heat to the both surfaces but wander the heat source, don't leave it on one spot, and don't intentionally aim at the solder paste.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU-HVXvrUfw
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One of the soft solder paste tests I did was to bend a length of .020" sheet brass to make an under round bbl lug. You would not believe how strong that lug is! For added insurance, I'd make it out of .030" brass sheet - more than plenty strong.
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That soft silver solder looks like pretty good stuff, I'll probably get some and try it. :hairy
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I'm impressed rob. Probably out of my area of expertise.
( it's a pretty small area) ha
I enjoy following along .
Kevin
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That looks great! :bow I wonder though, is the trigger guard a little too far back? I would think there should be more room in front of the trigger for a gloved finger, but that may just be because I'm used to seeing more modern firearms. The Hodgepodge rifle is that way but that's because I removed the rear trigger and there really wasn't a way to move the new TG forward.
Anyway, I am jealous of you. As a friend would say, I wish I had your fowler and you had a feather up your nose - then we'd both be tickled! :lol sign
~Kees~
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It's not all that great a gun in terms of build, and to a fair degree even in looks. The builder is a rookie at this ML game, though he's a pro wood and metal carver, for sure! It's all a learning process, who hasn't crawled before learning to walk? So much to know about ML guns, I'm always learning good stuff!
Yes, he installed the trigger guard too far back, a big blunder considering nothing is interconnected to the trigger guard to be concerned about, so it's just a matter of sticking it wherever - hopefully with the trigger dead centered in the guard's bow! - which is why the trigger and trigger plate get stuck on first. I could correct it by moving the guard forward but that would require sanding off all the neat looking relief carving that's under and around the guard. Not worth doing, plenty of trigger finger room as is and I don't shoot with mittens ;D
Right now, it's my only muzzleloader. I sold off the Kibler .54 Colonial I'd built and will stick with smoothbores only. When I build a fowler next year, probably the forthcoming new Kibler kit, this one will more than likely go up for sale ... for cheap. ;) Until then, it'll be used for local shoots and the coming TMA Postal Match.
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It's not all that great a gun in terms of build, and to a fair degree even in looks. The builder is a rookie at this ML game, though he's a pro wood and metal carver, for sure! It's all a learning process, who hasn't crawled before learning to walk? So much to know about ML guns, I'm always learning good stuff!
Yes, he installed the trigger guard too far back, a big blunder considering nothing is interconnected to the trigger guard to be concerned about, so it's just a matter of sticking where it wherever - with the trigger dead centered in the guard's bow! I could correct it by moving the guard forward but that would require sanding off all the neat looking relief carving that's under and around the guard. Not worth doing, plenty of trigger finger room as is and I don't shoot with mittens ;D
Right now, it's my only muzzleloader. I sold off the Kibler .54 Colonial I'd built and will stick with smoothbores only. When I build a fowler next year, probably the forthcoming new Kibler kit, this one will more than likely go up for sale ... for cheap. ;) Until then, it'll be used for local shoots and the coming TMA Postal Match.
Couple of things, Rob:
1) you always seem to sell for less and
2) I wish I knew what you've simply forgotten, but then that isn't possible and would do neither of us any good...
hope you can get this one to where you want it before you're led to sell it
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Serpent side plate added, along with a new longer lock bolt. All that's left is to relocate one of the barrel lug pins and that'll get done when I get David Rase's cool pin jig tool.
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Rob, your going to like that jig, I have had one for over a decade and it works like a dream!
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This will be my third Rase pin jig ... the first got legs, the second is till hiding somewhere in my shop ..... :Doh! :o ::) ;D
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OOPS!
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And of course this time Dave has none for sale and will make inventory early next year.
No big deal, the way the weather and my schedule is going I won't be able to shoot the dang thing 'til come Spring. ;banghead;
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And of course this time Dave has none for sale and will make inventory early next year.
No big deal, the way the weather and my schedule is going I won't be able to shoot the dang thing 'til come Spring. ;banghead;
Guess it's time for a treasure hunt in the shop! :luff:
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And of course this time Dave has none for sale and will make inventory early next year.
No big deal, the way the weather and my schedule is going I won't be able to shoot the dang thing 'til come Spring. ;banghead;
I'm of the opinion that once the NEW one finally arrives, Rob will "stumble" onto the one lost in the shop... :( :lol sign
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And of course this time Dave has none for sale and will make inventory early next year.
No big deal, the way the weather and my schedule is going I won't be able to shoot the dang thing 'til come Spring. ;banghead;
I'm of the opinion that once the NEW one finally arrives, Rob will "stumble" onto the one lost in the shop... :( :lol sign
That's what usually happens to me!