Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Traditional Firearms => Caplock Long Guns => Topic started by: Deimmortales on January 23, 2021, 12:13:03 PM
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So with the epidemic in full swing my usual plinking ammo has run dry for the most part and am saving what i have left for a real emergency.
being bored and stuck in the house I have made my own rifle from scratch, and am at the point of test firing.
but I have a small problem I didnt account for, because I have made a .22 caliber, inline caplock. my other muzzleloader is a .50 cal. and the powder measures smallest dose is 10grains. I need 2-5 for testing. and using powder substitutes as I do, Im not sure how to measure it out initially.
5grains is basicly max load in 22lr from my understanding and Im using much lighter weight pellets/ airgun slugs.
can I simply measure out volumetricly 100grains, weigh that on my reloading powder scale, divide by 5. weight out the answer and drill a piece of brass to hold that amount volumetricly?
also i plan on making paper cartirdges for this using cigarette paper (these have burn rate effecting additives and create residue)
or nitrating my own paper (nitrocellulose paper) waxing it lightly.
if anyone makes their own paper cartridges, is nitrating the paper even nessicary, and how does this effect your load/performace?
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Another thing you could do for a substitute lite charge as you are talking is to replace the #11 nipple on the rifle with a musket cap nipple. That should give you plenty of energy.
Solution 2 would be to get one of the flintlock primers from Treso, the one that has a powder horn valve built in but only has a 3 grain spout. And use Ffffg (4 F) powder. Again, plenty of power to shoot an air rifle pellet.
Solution 3 would be to have an electronic scale that measures in grains and pour out powder until it measures 5 grains or whatever your charge will be. Get a piece of seamless brass tubing from a hobby shop, plug one end, pour the 5 grains of powder into the tubing and cut it off where the top of the charge is.
Personally, I would go with the musket cap option.
Let us know what you decided on and how it worked out.
John (Bigsmoke)
PS, I am not really into itty bitty powder charges, so these are really guesses on my part.
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The reason I chose caplock is i make my own #11 caps, how hot are musket caps comparatively? Maybe i can simply double the priming compound and see where it gets me
I'm afraid i dont have the land or fun neighbors enough to blow off giant loud cannons, that being said I still want to build one sometime
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I don't really know for sure.
By sound, if a #11 sounds like a .22 when you pop it, I would say that a musket cap sounds like a .38.
IIRC, I believe Pedersoli makes (or did make) a little pistol that only relied upon a percussion cap to shoot. And I think it just used a #11 cap. It was for shooting indoors. I think I heard that in Europe, they would shoot into a fireplace, as that is a great backstop. Not sure what the target was.
John (Bigsmoke)
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Deimmortales,
I don't suppose you would share your method of making #11 caps? In these times of shortage, that seems like an invaluable ability .
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Nessmuk, the process is simple and tedious and requires either machining ability or money.
you can either make your own die and anvil on a lathe very simply out of mild steel. or purchase a tap o cap or similar product here
http://22lrreloader.com/store/
the mix they sell here for the priming compound I have used for percussion caps for my inlines, cap& ball revolvers, and boxer primers for pistol and small rifle primers.
priming compounds need a few things,
they need an:
initiator- primary explosive that is impact or friction sensitive.
a fuel source- unburned media (when making black powder using charcoal its the unburned cellulose that burns not the carbon. if you sub pure carbon for charcoal it burns slowly instead of explode/deflagrate rapidly)
oxygen/ oxidizer- for the flame to breath its short life.
heavy metal carrier/slag element- to carry your heat into your secondary explosive/fuel
in the mix sold at 22 reloader is: lead styphnate - an initiator/ heavy metal slag. sulfur - an initiator/fuel. potassium nitrate- oxidizer. ground glass- friction modifier to trigger the lead styphnate & sulfur.
this creates a weak priming compound by itself. here are some substances that you can substitute in to make it hotter or just becasue its what you have available.
silver fulminate - initiator ( snappers- water soluble)
red phosphorus- initiator (strike anywhere match head and the red sandpaper like material on regular matches)
iron oxide -heavy metal slag/ mild oxidizer (anywhere from buildings to underside of cars)
lead azide - initiator/ heavy metal slag. hard to find hard to sythesize
powdered sugar - fuel needs a larger oxidizer amount to function well
nitro-cellulose powders - fuel I treat west system # 403 micro fibers into a gun cotton powder. medium difficulty to make. VERY POTENT its very close to single base smokeless powder. just without all the modifiers to slow down the burn. not impact sensitive enough for primers but can be set off by static. coat this with graphite powder to mitigate handling risks from static.
nitro-cellulose adhesives& finishes - useful as a clean burning binder for caps and a coating for primers. order from any specialtly shop. common in the archery fletching and instrument finishes, duco cement works well too.
I mostly just do the sugested mix for the prime all compound. but I do a 50/50 red phosphorus sulfur mix to make it flash hotter and use diluted nitrocelulose adhesive to seal the compound into whatever im working on.
Use this info at your own risk. wear gloves, resperator and face shield when working with these in any amount.
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Or, as with the tap o cap, you can simply use a roll of toy caps.
Heck, I guess they are still available, unless our liberal "friends" in office have decided that regardless of how many generations of kids that have played with cap guns were just lucky and the recent mix of kids need to be protected. I know I never had any problems when I played with cap guns. Of course, I never wore a helmet while riding a bicycle and I drank from a garden hose and I rode in the back of a pickup truck, too. And the first few automobiles I had didn't have seat belts either. What could I have been thinking? :Doh!
John (Bigsmoke)
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I think RMA way back when even made a .22 for young kids to shoot buckshot out of that ran on roll caps. Some kinda swivel action breech/ muzzleloaded mutant. Not sure if it was any good or not.
I'm in the shop today going to try go make a small measure.
For references store bought caps vs my home made push a 17grain round ball x inches down the barrel without powder.
Cci #11 magnums 6.5 inches
Homebrew #11 5.5 inches
Remington #11 3.75 inches
Not exact distances. Just based of marking the ramrod
I think it's time to get some powder down there for testing
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So I tried 2 loads, for a 17grain roundball 2 grains and 5 grains of prodex. Neither produced great results.
I might just jump to 15 grains see what happens.
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Thinking out loud, would the old adage of "enough powder to cover the ball in the palm of your hand" be applicable? The other thought was to trim a 22LR case for a volume measure after wrapping a wire handle, once trimmed to desired load, solder the handle?
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For muzzleloaders, the black powder charge is a volumetric measure. Here, we're building the "cartridge" down the bore in the "chamber" area.
For breech action cartridge rifles, the black powder charge is a grain weight measure. Here, we're considering the cartridge case as the bore's chamber area.
In both instances above, there can be no air space 'tween powder and patched ball, patched bullet, or wadded shot.
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From what I can find, 5 grains was the original .22lr black powder charge amount. And in modern smokeless its anywhere from .08 grains to 2 grains. I have made 2 measures for 2 and 5 grains of pyrodex by volume. At point blank range I would expect a .22 to blow thru this wooden block. But penetration is under an inch with the 'old max load'. I just finished carving out the stock today so I'm going to go back to testing some higher charge weights.. I think I'm going to do a trigger on a string and jump to 10-15 grains of powder. And see if il get some decent speed. My air rifle is actually performing better penetration wise at this point.
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Hint: Get rid of that phony Pyrojunk powder and get some real black powder. It will treat you much better.
Also, if you are going to be using those CCI #11 caps, I would rethink that as well. IMHO, RWS (Dynamit Nobel) are ever so much better. From my limited experience with muzzleloading guns (only 50 years+), that is not a combination made in heaven. Just saying... And of course, YMMV.
John (Bigsmoke)
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As John has already mentioned,.... one of these little pan chargers will dispense small charges of 4F black powder.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/73/1/FLASK-PP-4
I'm sure they could also be modified to throw a bigger charge (if desired) by applying a bit of ingenuity. :bl th up
I highly recommend using real black powder in 4F granulation for what you're trying to do,.... because small amounts of the much coarser granulated Pyrodex probably wouldn't have enough "uumph" to blow the skirt up on a gnat. :)
..... and that's not even taking into consideration getting the Pyrodex to reliably ignite because of it's much higher ignition point.
Real black powder is designated as a "low explosive" (which has a low ignition point),.... vs,.... Pyrodex which is a "flammable solid".
There's definitely a reason why Pyrodex isn't recommended for use in flintlocks,... and that is because it is much more difficult to ignite.
I think that same "high ignition point" is also playing a big factor in what you're trying to do with your tiny muzzleloader and little charges of coarse granulated fake powder.
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Rondo, I was thinking more on the line of the Treso 11-06-38 Free Flow Pan Primer as shown on page 3 of their catalog. Google to see a photo of it, sorry I could not copy it to post here. It is a 135 grain cylinder with a powder horn valve screwed into it. The valve has an integral tube leading out of it that will dispense about a 5 grain charge. I carry one in each of my bags, regardless of whether it is for percussion or flint. For percussion guns, if the charge is wet or missing, that is adequate to push the ball out.
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I seen that John,.... either one would work, and/or likely be easily modified to throw a bit larger charge. :bl th up
I guess my main point was,.... I think Pyrodex (rifle or pistol) powder has too large of granulation, and too high of an ignition point, to fire effectively in minute amounts (like 3-5 grs.).
One could do an experiment by putting 5 grs. of Pyrodex on a flat surface and touch the glowing end of a heated wire to it,.... and then try the same thing with 3-5 grs. of 4FG black powder, and compare the results (or "LACK OF"). :bl th up :)
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Thankyou for the actual black powder tip. I can't get any blackpowder locally so I decided to make a small batch.
I made 100grains worth. It's a little finer then ffffg. It came out closer to powdered sugar in consistency. Burns clean and quick. And alot more powerful.
It took 15 grains of pyrodex (fffg: edit) to match the penetration of the 5grains homebrew in the same block of mohagany.
Thanks for all the advice
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That's great,.... I'm glad it worked for you! :hairy
One more bit of advice,.... although black powder might not be available near you/locally, buying it online should not be a problem and you can get it delivered right to your door. :bl th up :applaud
I buy from,........ https://powderinc.com/
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Ian,.... I just checked and the only grades of Pyrodex I can find are,... R/S (rifle/shotgun),... P,... (pistol),.... and "Select".
Pyrodex doesn't offer any of their powder in 4FG,.... but you can get Goex 4FG from Powder Inc,.... and yes, it is similar in granulation to sugar. :bl th up
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The gun came out okay for a from scratch build, but I'm happy with it. The homebrew black powder works very well, but i do think i have some other chemical in the mix. I think its calcium carbonate. I set some alight on my anvil and it left behind a metallic ball that when i burn with a torch it throws an orange flame and white scorch mark/ white powdery residue on the anvil...
swaged some lead balls to leave a perfect ring like with a revolver.
Will definitely be ordering some factory made black powder soon! :)
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Interesting rifle. :hairy
What is the barrel off of?
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I own an FX impact, and ordered a heavy slug liner (an airgun slug is basicly a lead bullet without a gascheck) and the first one they sent me must not have gotten oiled before delivery and rusted a bit in storage/transit. So i sent them a photo of the barrel liner and they sent me a replacement for free. the construction of the barrel to convert into a firearm barrel is simple, install a nipple at the end and reinforce the liner by covering it with a high pressure rated pipe with 5/16 ID, use an adjustable reamer to size, heat the pipe up to cherry hot and install the liner. the heat expands the pipe and as it cools it siezes onto the barrel liner. select the nipple you want to use and partially tap the breech. heat the nipple and breech end till cherry hot and slowly turn the nipple into it. the two will fuse very tightly.
as with all homemade barrels do some proof-testing before use inhand or near your face. I over charged the barrel by 50 grains and blasted from a safe distance away, multiple times. and measured if the nipple-breech-plug backed out at all. after testing you can also weld the nipple inplace for extra insurance. drill and tap the sleeve/highpressure pipe without entering the liner and make a screw to anchor it into the stock, normal glassing process.
FX barrels are actually top notch. the rifling is pressed into a polished barrel from the outside in an extruder-like die and are perfectly smooth inside.
all the other parts were made with a ginding wheel and angle grinder/ sandpaper. i made the stock from what i believe is cherry.
I may do some brass furniture for it as i have scrap brass stock but im not sure how much more time i want to put into this. it has been fun tho
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That's interesting, even though I'll probably never make one,.... thanks for the info and the reply. :) :shake :toast