Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Craftsmanship => Gun Building and Repair => Topic started by: Watchmaker on March 05, 2021, 06:18:49 PM
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I ordered in December and finally received a Northwest Trade Gun kit from Pecatonica River. I know it's not a drop in kit so I know I have my work cut out for me. Being my first build I had them install the breech plug, solder the front sight and install the barrel lugs.
My question is how do I approach fitting the barrel in the stock. Specifically with a soldered front sight and what appears to be two of the three barrel lugs soldered of course the barrel isn't going to lay flat in the channel.
So it seems my options are 1 either remove the two soldered barrel lugs and proceed as normal or 2 remove the breech plug and fit it first into the stock then screw it to the barrel and I'll have a much better idea where to inlet the lugs.
So finally my real question. How to heat the barrel lugs to remove them. I would think they are silver soldered. What I mean is do I just heat the crap out of the lug itself and try to keep the barrel as cool as possible? Or heat both evenly? Or heat the barrel more? I believe I'll need 1100 degrees or so which is on the red spectrum. I just don't want to destroy my barrel.
If there's a third option I'm all ears.
Thank you in advance for any and all insights.
-Danny
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Welcome to the TMA forum!
Is the barrel channel cut into the stock at all?
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Your sight and lugs could very well be soldered on with the new "low temp solder" that's been around these last few years.
So you might not need a whole lot of heat to get the lugs off. :bl th up :pray:
What is the barrel length, and how many lugs?
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If the barrel channel is already cut - you need to soot (or use inletting ink) on the bottom of the lugs and inlet them.
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Welcome to the TMA forum!
Is the barrel channel cut into the stock at all?
Yes the barrel channel is cut into the stock. It looks to be a nice fit without much wood to be removed.
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Your sight and lugs could very well be soldered on with the new "low temp solder" that's been around these last few years.
So you might not need a whole lot of heat to get the lugs off. :bl th up :pray:
What is the barrel length, and how many lugs?
I tried to heat with a propane hand torch but was overly cautious. Do you know what temp the low temp solder would melt? More importantly... can I harm the barrel by heating it too much? It's a smooth bore.
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If the barrel channel is already cut - you need to soot (or use inletting ink) on the bottom of the lugs and inlet them.
Yes I understand this is the first step but every Youtube video I have seen the barrel and breech plug are inlet before the lugs are on. The breech plug is worst fitting and will need the most inletting. As such I don't know how far rearward it will settle.
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Your sight and lugs could very well be soldered on with the new "low temp solder" that's been around these last few years.
So you might not need a whole lot of heat to get the lugs off. :bl th up :pray:
What is the barrel length, and how many lugs?
The barrel length is 36" It has three lugs. The lug on the octagonal portion of the barrel was dove tailed and I was able to remove it already.
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If the barrel channel is already cut - you need to soot (or use inletting ink) on the bottom of the lugs and inlet them.
Yes I understand this is the first step but every Youtube video I have seen the barrel and breech plug are inlet before the lugs are on. The breech plug is worst fitting and will need the most inletting. As such I don't know how far rearward it will settle.
Can you post a pic of the plug? not all plugs are made the same and having a pic will help in the mentoring of the how to.
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I'm at work (reading these posts... oops) but I will take pictures tomorrow to post.
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Your sight and lugs could very well be soldered on with the new "low temp solder" that's been around these last few years.
So you might not need a whole lot of heat to get the lugs off. :bl th up :pray:
What is the barrel length, and how many lugs?
I tried to heat with a propane hand torch but was overly cautious. Do you know what temp the low temp solder would melt? More importantly... can I harm the barrel by heating it too much? It's a smooth bore.
Low temp solder melts at 430 degrees,.... silver solder melts at around 840 degrees.
I'm not a "soldering expert" by any means, but I doubt getting a smooth bore barrel up to 840 degrees will damage it, I've never tried it because I've always used 95/5 (which melts at 465 degrees) for soldering sights and lugs. Just be aware that a smooth bore barrel can heat up to 840 degrees (and beyond) faster than an octagon barrel because it's thinner.
Hopefully someone who does a lot of soldering on thin walled barrels will chime in with their advice. :bl th up
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Wish I could see a pix. Am not understanding why you want to remove lugs if the channel is fully cut.
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Wish I could see a pix. Am not understanding why you want to remove lugs if the channel is fully cut.
I believe that there is a lot of work left to do to inlet the breech plug. It may end up shifting back, so if the under lugs are already inlet to allow the barrel to fit down in the channel, the inlets would have to be moved back also. It will be much neater to take them off, inlet the breech plug and make any necessary adjustments to the barrel channel, then reinstall and inlet the lugs. At least, that is what I gather from the posts here. If I'm wrong I am sure someone will correct me in the usual, gentlemanly fashion.
~Kees~
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That's exactly my thought process.
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Try this for some info. https://americanlongrifles.org/PDF/tutorial.pdf. You will learn some good tips and methods. Mike Brooks is a good builder. My personal take is to NOT remove the lugs and inlet them. Make the slots a bit longer so the barrel can "shift" with the heating and weather etc. etc. A sixteenth of an inch should be plenty. I would caution you to READ,READ and READ some more first. Have a plan of "attack" and go for it. When it's done, it's YOURS. Good Luck with your build. Another warning--- This can get addicting real fast.
doggoner
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JUST an FYI but you may consider getting a copy of "The Gunsmith of Greeneville County" by Alexander, I truly believe that if you had nothing but that book as a tutorial and followed Peters mentoring and how to process ... you can build a right fine long gun! lots of pics and easy to follow instructions.
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First chips out on this first build. Barrel and plug starting to settle in. I don’t think the breach face of the stock is square with the rifle channel. I’m going to remove the lugs so I can sit the barrel in it’s channel in order to transfer color to the breach face before I remove any more wood. Ok
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Why not remove the breech plug, inlet the barrel, install the plug and finish inletting?
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All the same problems are there. The barrel does not center in the stock because the lugs raise it up proud of the stock. So if as I suspect the breech face of the stock is not quite square to the barrel channel I really can't precisely tell this without the barrel settled into the stock. Then I will need to remove wood to square the breech face of the stock which will move the barrel and thus the lugs rearward up to a quarter inch. I just heard from the mfg that I can remove the lugs with a propane torch. Plus I gain the skill of soldering.
I'm sure there are a million ways to do this. I appreciate everyone's input. I'm just trying to find the way I'm most comfortable with. I'm probably overthinking things but that's just what I do.
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If you have the breech face part of the stock pretty well squared off, you can cut the slots for the lugs as you lower the barrel down into the stock.
When doing this, "inletting black" or candle soot is your best friend. :bl th up
Don't worry if your lug slots aren't "tight", you want a bit of "play" fore and aft in the lug slots, to allow for a little movement, as your barrel heats up and cools down. :bl th up
Once the barrel and tang are sitting firmly in their inletted bed and you've clamped the barrel in the stock, you can then drill the pin holes through your stock (and each lug).
Be sure to elongate the hole in each lug (but NOT the stock) to allow for the same barrel expansion mentioned above. :bl th up :bl th up
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I am so happy. I got the lugs off and the barrel seated down in the stock. I still need to address the section where the octagonal section transitions to smooth. There’s a bit of seesaw situation there. As you can see from the pics the breech face is almost flush. The sides of the inlet weren’t even but I’m on my way. My original propane torch had too soft a flame to melt the solder. It is ok’d and unadjustable. Found a different torch and got it done.
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What solder do you guys recommend for soldered lugs? And where can I get it? My manufacture said the solder is a "High Strength Low Temp solder that is sold from Brownells" but I couldn't find anything with that name or description. Thanks for your help.
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Try these; otherwise, give Brownell's a call. I can't say that I have contacted them very often, but when I did they were most helpful.
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/solders-flux/homogenized-solder-prod645.aspx
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/solders-flux/silvaloy-355-silver-solder-prod584.aspx
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/solders-flux/hi-force-44-solder-prod709.aspx (ribbon is in stock)
Hope this helps!
~Kees~
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The paste solder works great for me ...
http://tradmla.org/tmaf/index.php?topic=25432.msg231463#msg231463
http://tradmla.org/tmaf/index.php?topic=25432.msg231464#msg231464
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I am nearly finished with my first real from scratch except the barrel build,now it will be back to the original Fowler with a big load of learning from all the mistakes I made and corrected( some couldn’t be and will have to be lived with!)but lessons learned,and then there is that Lyman stock that contributed the barrel and wants a Green Mountain or Colerain in .54 put into it ,why,?It just started that way,i jest don’t know why,can’t figger it out! Thanks to my wonderful loving wife I also have a collection of wood chisels and knives that I have to learn to use to carve wood,there’s a hippee over in Woodstock N.Y. ,I hear, that might help.
Sort of like ...addicting.