Traditional Muzzleloading Association
Craftsmanship => Gun Building and Repair => Topic started by: sclearman on January 09, 2022, 05:14:20 PM
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Folks, I've come back for more. Way back around 2016 I made a trade and ended up with an Uberti Hawken and accoutrements : http://tradmla.org/tmaf/index.php?topic=21816.msg204471#msg204471
Basically that rifle has been sitting next to my Lyman GPR that I've had for much longer. Life has finally brought me to a point where I have property to hunt on and a local muzzleloader season. Out they came, the Lyman was pretty much ready to go, the Uberti had issues.
The Uberti would not lock the hammer back. I assumed someone who didn't know what they were doing tried to set the trigger to light, but that wasn't the issue. I ended up taking everything apart. I found what looked like half dried syrup inside the lock and triggers. Triggers were stuck together so much they had overcome the springs. It looked like someone had dipped the stock in oil as a wood finish and assembled the rifle without wiping down the internal lock areas. Additionally, this rifle has, as best I can tell, a plastic nose cap.
I ended up stripping the finish from the wood just so I could get it all clean. I'm going back with an oil finish unless there is a good reason not to, Watco Danish Oil is what I have in mind. The thimble entry (not sure exactly what it's called) is 2 pieces. The round part held by one screw, the flat part held by glue maybe.
My questions are why the plastic nose cap, where is that from? What wood finish is recommended? And why the 2 piece ramrod entry?
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Plastic nose cap... Wow, that's hitting below the belt for sure. I've always (heard / felt) that Uberti was a step up on their products, (and maybe at one time they were) - but not anymore...
I've used the Watco Danish Oil, but I'm not a big fan of it. It'll work, but there's better finishes out there... However, if you're in a pinch - at least you have the Danish Oil to fall back on. :shake
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You know I can't say for sure it came from factory this way. I suppose it could have been a kit.
What are the better finishes?
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I always liked the water based dark walnut crystals (2 to 3 coats depending on the wood of walnut or maple) and two coats of Tru-oil,,, but there's a lot more choices out there than what I've used. Maybe some others will chime in. It's really a personal choice of what "you" like, not someone else... :shake
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I was always a fan of Formby's tung oil until their prices went through the roof.
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I was always a fan of Formby's tung oil until their prices went through the roof.
Hank, I've noticed that too. No clue as what may have happen for them to almost double their prices, but they sho'nuff have.
I've always been a fan of Tung Oil, but the same is true with True Oil, which I like to thin out just a bit and use multiple coats.
As was mentioned above, It's your choice. you do what you like best.
As for as that Nose Cap, THAT does not sound like Uberti to me.
All the Uberti's I have dealt with, which is a limited few, were all just a notch above whatever was in 2nd place, insofar as fit and finish.
Russ...
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I guess I'm trying to decide if I should leave the nosecap or remove and replace it. If I remove it, what do I replace it with, and how it it attached? right now its dark, almost black dull color.
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I guess I'm trying to decide if I should leave the nosecap or remove and replace it. If I remove it, what do I replace it with, and how it it attached? right now its dark, almost black dull color.
Are you sure it's a plastic nose cap - and not a German Silver nose cap?
You could check out Dixie Gun Works for a nose cap I would think.
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I would remove the nose cap and scratch the inside to see what color it is. If the scratch is shiny metal it probably isn't plastic.
~Kees~
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I just received a hawken conversion kit from the hawken shop. For my TC hawken.
Rear sight, trigger guard , butt plate and Nose cap.
Rough, cast as is so needs Some work but they state the kit will fit most hawken knockoffs .
You just order a nose cap also.
Worth a look see.
Kevin
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I did take my pocket knife and carve just a little cut on the barrel channel where it wouldn't show. It was definitely not any type of metal. I was 'soft' and I'm 99% sure its plastic. I'll leave open the possibility it is some type of dark wood, although I've worked with wood enough on making pens and even ebony caps on Mausers to know it is definitely not ebony or any hard wood. Its as soft as balsa or, well...plastic.
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Honestly I think it going to bother me if I don't replace it. Just knowing it's not 'right' in any way. Not to say this Uberti Hawken is an accurate copy of a real thing but...It's close I think. Close enough that it shouldn't have plastic on it.
Am I right that the nose cap is covering wood, and not attached like an ebony tip cap on a custom bolt action? Those generally use a dowl pin and are glued with a straight joint. Am I correct that this 'cap' should be a cap an have wood extending under it to which it is 'glued'? If so that makes me feel better about removing it and getting another to replace it.
On that note, what would be the 'most correct' cap replacement? The rifle has the lock, hammer, breech plug, butt plate and toe plate all CCH. would I need to try to get a CCH nose cap? I could probaly find a way to do a lil CCH at home if I need to. Or would the German Silver be more appropriate?
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Honestly I think it going to bother me if I don't replace it
I can understand that.
The only other thing I can come up with (or think at this time) is it "horn" by any chance?
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Honestly I think it going to bother me if I don't replace it
I can understand that.
The only other thing I can come up with (or think at this time) is it "horn" by any chance?
That's what i was thinking, maybe buffler horn? it wouldn't be the first Hawken to have that, I've made 5 buff horn caps in years past for me and a couple club members
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Tell me what horn would be like. I've never really dealt with it, but I thought it would be very brittle, hard to cut or scratch.
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Why not Google Uberti Mfg and ask them what the nose cap is made out of?
As a rule, the manufacturers are happy to answer questions about their product.
Quite possibly, if you look up Uberti Hawken, it will tell you all about it.
But, this has been an interesting conversation, regardless of what it is made of.
John (Bigsmoke)
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Tell me what horn would be like. I've never really dealt with it, but I thought it would be very brittle, hard to cut or scratch.
Horn is/can be semi hard, depending on how old it is and it's care, scratches and ribbons fairly easy like plastic but horn is made of compacted hair (not like antler) , does not dent easily, take a sharp screwdriver or stanley blade and scratch a ribbon off the backside of the cap, put a lighter to it and see if it melts and smells like plastic or burns and smells like singed eyebrows!
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Why not Google Uberti Mfg and ask them what the nose cap is made out of?
As a rule, the manufacturers are happy to answer questions about their product.
Quite possibly, if you look up Uberti Hawken, it will tell you all about it.
But, this has been an interesting conversation, regardless of what it is made of.
John (Bigsmoke)
I've sent them a message. But they don't list the gun on their website, and they dont show a manual available. I'm wondering if this was a kit that someone put together. Honestly it doesn't matter, i'm just interested for interest sake.
The more I think about it, I'm even considering trying to pour a new nose cap out of white metal.
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Why not Google Uberti Mfg and ask them what the nose cap is made out of?
As a rule, the manufacturers are happy to answer questions about their product.
Quite possibly, if you look up Uberti Hawken, it will tell you all about it.
But, this has been an interesting conversation, regardless of what it is made of.
John (Bigsmoke)
I've sent them a message. But they don't list the gun on their website, and they dont show a manual available. I'm wondering if this was a kit that someone put together. Honestly it doesn't matter, i'm just interested for interest sake.
The more I think about it, I'm even considering trying to pour a new nose cap out of white metal.
Track of the wolf has pewter pellets available to melt and pour if your interested in pewter, not very hard to do.
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Tell me what horn would be like. I've never really dealt with it, but I thought it would be very brittle, hard to cut or scratch.
Could you show a picture of this? It would surprise me if Uberti would do that. Not that its not possible but ijdk
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I'll get a pic, might be a day or so though.
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Your rifle's nose cap could be pewter. Pewter is not heavy at all, and could be mistaken IMHO for plastic.
Anyway, here's a link;
http://grrw.org/uberti-santa-fe-hawken/
"Below is a custom rifle that was built in 1976 using Cherry Corners parts. It has German silver barrel key escutcheons and a pewter nose cap. This was a popular configuration for custom rifles in the 1970’s. Allen could have sent a very similar rifle to Uberti as a prototype."
German Silver was also used.
How they got it black - I have no idea, but I'd bet those who work with metals know how to do it.
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Your rifle's nose cap could be pewter. Pewter is not heavy at all, and could be mistaken IMHO for plastic.
Anyway, here's a link;
http://grrw.org/uberti-santa-fe-hawken/
"Below is a custom rifle that was built in 1976 using Cherry Corners parts. It has German silver barrel key escutcheons and a pewter nose cap. This was a popular configuration for custom rifles in the 1970’s. Allen could have sent a very similar rifle to Uberti as a prototype."
German Silver was also used.
How they got it black - I have no idea, but I'd bet those who work with metals know how to do it.
Thanks for sharing this Joe, great resource!
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Mine is german siler I believe
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The picture almost makes it look a little "brass 'ish" - but the bottom ramrod slide looks a bit like German Silver... :shake
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Looks brassy to me also. Maybe plated?
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The nose cap looks black to me in the original post photo (http://tradmla.org/tmaf/index.php?topic=21816.0) although sclearman says it's brown. Probably my confuser's color rendering. Anyway, if it's pewter a scratch in the barrel channel would show shiny metalic and if it's horn I believe it would be gray or dirty white. Plastic probably the same as horn or any color.
To answer the other question, yes, the metal muzzle cap covers the wood. However, if it's horn it might be glued on with dowels....
If it is a reworked Uberti from GRRW I would be inclined to think it wasn't plastic but horn. You might want to contact the GRRW collector folks (http://grrw.org/contacts/) and see what they have to say about this. I wouldn't do anything to that nose cap until you do. ;)
~Kees~
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Sorry it took me a bit to get back. I'm a fire investigator and I've been working on a large apartment fire we had.
Anyway....It's plastic. I scratched, and sanded, and did all sorts of things where it wouldn't show. Even curled a sliver off and took a cigarette lighter to it. it melted and smelled like plastic not like horn or bone. I've turned antler pens and smelled enough bone to know, i'll just have to ask you to trust me on it.
I decided I didn't like it, it looked fine but I didn't like it. So, I cut it off, tried to do it a lil at a time thinking there was wood under it. Well, there wasn't. This was a solid piece of plastic glued with nothing but a but joint to the stock. No wood under, no dowel pins, just a simple but joint.
I've ordered some pewter, guess I'll do my own. I'll put in some type of support to cast around to help hold it all together. I also ordered 2 matching wedge keys, the ones I have don't match, and one is too thick to fit. That one was hammered in and bent the plate on the far side. Only thing I could find that was the size of the one that fit was from a 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle from TOW. nothing else was the right width and thickness.
So, the fun continues.
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Better to go with what you like, that's for sure! :hairy
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Here's a thread about pouring a pewter nose cap:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/pouring-pewter-nosecap.114726/
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Scott, you might try screwing in a couple of fine wood screws into the stock to use as an anchor for the pewter.
Good luck with the pour.
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I'm thinking doing that and/or possibly a dolls head back into the stock under the barrel.
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I'm thinking doing that and/or possibly a dolls head back into the stock under the barrel.
OK I'll bite wth is a dolls head?
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I'm thinking doing that and/or possibly a dolls head back into the stock under the barrel.
OK I'll bite wth is a dolls head?
Thats what I've always heard it called in woodworking. Westly Richards called it a Dolls head on the double shotguns to hold barrels to action closed and give strength. Same thing as the "lollipop tang". Just a larger section that makes a mechanical lock in the wood.
(https://cdn.trackofthewolf.com/imgPart/plug/plug-tn-15-5_1.jpg)
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:hairy thanks!
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Learn something new everyday here. :bl th up :bl th up
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What Nessmuk said!
~Kees~
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Thank you gentlemen, I"m glad I could offer something you found worthwhile.
To that end I have some pewter on the way. TOW was out, but I found some on the auction site, got a pound of it. Should be enough to do an end cap or two.
Another thing I have found on this rifle, the thimble cap i think it is called is strange. I have seen from looking at the kits that the entry tube usually has a....skirt? going back over the stock. I'm not sure what that is called. On this Uberti, those are 2 seperate pieces. the tube is one piece held in by a screw through the stock, and the 'skirt' seemed to be glued in place. I say seemed to be because its not in place any longer.
(https://cdn.trackofthewolf.com/imgPart/rp/rp-hawk_1.jpg)
This poses a problem to me, in that 1.) it's not 'right' and 2.) I dont like that it's only held by a small lip and epoxy.
So, I may weld those pieces together and contour to make it as right as I can. I did order one of the parts from TOW and they dont fit, the distance from center of the tube to the skirt edge is too great, there isn't enough stock to make it fit.
Isn't it fun to work on stuff? :Doh!